Chris Sale traded to Braves

[Randy Red Sox]

I think Randy thinks he’s the only one who saw how that trade has turned out…

 

but i am one who was against the trade from day 1--one of the few on here

[notin]

but i am one who was against the trade from day 1--one of the few on here

 

There were a few others.

 

Given Sale’s complete vanishing act since 2019, why? Even if he was actually healthy, it’s been 6 years since we’ve seen this. No one saw that, except the delusional and the liars…

[Randy Red Sox]

There were a few others.

 

Given Sale’s complete vanishing act since 2019, why? Even if he was actually healthy, it’s been 6 years since we’ve seen this. No one saw that, except the delusional and the liars…

 

i didn't expect him to be this good but he ended 2023 healthy so i did expect a better Sale in 2024.

[notin]

i didn't expect him to be this good but he ended 2023 healthy so i did expect a better Sale in 2024.

 

We’ve seen that before. Sale finished 2021 healthy and even pitched in the postseason. And still only last 5 innings the next year…

[Bellhorn04]

There were a few others.

 

Given Sale’s complete vanishing act since 2019, why? Even if he was actually healthy, it’s been 6 years since we’ve seen this. No one saw that, except the delusional and the liars…

 

Damn those delusional, lying Braves...

[notin]

Damn those delusional, lying Braves...

 

They took a gamble they could afford to take.

 

Or, in your world, they saw 40 healthy IP from a 4.00 ERA pitcher and thought “he’s back!!”

[Bellhorn04]

They took a gamble they could afford to take.

 

Or, in your world, they saw 40 healthy IP from a 4.00 ERA pitcher and thought “he’s back!!”

 

In your world, the Red Sox couldn't afford to take such a gamble.

[Bellhorn04]

Also, I didn't realize you were such an old school ERA guy.

[notin]

In your world, the Red Sox couldn't afford to take such a gamble.

 

In mine, they lost that gamble 4 times already…

[notin]

Also, I didn't realize you were such an old school ERA guy.

 

I don’t like ERA, but when it is within 0.05 of FIP, it shouldn’t be ignored.

 

Of course, fWAR and bWAR are bad ways to summarize his healthy return in 2023, because those are season-long accomplishments and 60% of his season was before the latest injury. If you’re insisting he finished 2023 healthy, how do you summarize it without including the larger chunk from before he was hurt?

 

Or do you just ignore the injury and pretend it was obvious?

[notin]

In your world, the Red Sox couldn't afford to take such a gamble.

 

What pitcher represents a better gamble?

 

Pitcher A - 37yo with 240IP over the 3 previous seasons, including 164IP the season before?

 

Pitcher B - 35yo with 150IP over the 3 previous seasons, with a high of 102IP over that stretch?

[Bellhorn04]

In mine, they lost that gamble 4 times already…

 

Makes zero sense.

[Bellhorn04]

I don’t like ERA, but when it is within 0.05 of FIP, it shouldn’t be ignored.

 

Of course, fWAR and bWAR are bad ways to summarize his healthy return in 2023, because those are season-long accomplishments and 60% of his season was before the latest injury. If you’re insisting he finished 2023 healthy, how do you summarize it without including the larger chunk from before he was hurt?

 

Or do you just ignore the injury and pretend it was obvious?

 

This is all gibberish.

 

The simple fact is the Red Sox didn't have to make this trade. They had very little to lose by keeping Sale. That's all I've been saying all along.

 

They rolled the dice and got burned big time. It is what it is.

[cp176]

There were a few others.

 

Given Sale’s complete vanishing act since 2019, why? Even if he was actually healthy, it’s been 6 years since we’ve seen this. No one saw that, except the delusional and the liars…

 

In my little delusional world, athletes the likes of Chris Sale would be kept around in some capacity forever.

[Old Red]

Makes zero sense.

 

I sure JH is thrilled to death of having to pay $17M to the Braves for Sale to pitch as good as he has, and that has always made zero sense to me since the trade was made.

[Bellhorn04]

I sure JH is thrilled to death of having to pay $17M to the Braves for Sale to pitch as good as he has, and that has always made zero sense to me since the trade was made.

 

I think JH and his low throttle budget had a lot to do with this. I think Breslow had to free up the stupid $10 million to make the other moves he wanted to make.

[Old Red]

I think JH and his low throttle budget had a lot to do with this. I think Breslow had to free up the stupid $10 million to make the other moves he wanted to make.

 

Yes, but still paying $17M for Sale, and signing Gio for $38M, which probably wouldn’t have been done without freeing up that $10M for Sale turned out to be an expensive roll of that dice.

[Bellhorn04]

The argument that the Braves were in a better position to take a gamble on Sale, that they could afford it more than the Red Sox, is one that really irks me.

 

The Braves are in their second year of paying luxury tax and will likely be in their third year next year.

The Red Sox are in their second year of not paying tax.

 

The Red Sox are #3 in team value per Forbes.

The Braves are #8.

 

That argument is one that JH would love Sox fans to believe.

[notin]

The argument that the Braves were in a better position to take a gamble on Sale, that they could afford it more than the Red Sox, is one that really irks me.

 

The Braves are in their second year of paying luxury tax and will likely be in their third year next year.

The Red Sox are in their second year of not paying tax.

 

The Red Sox are #3 in team value per Forbes.

The Braves are #8.

 

That argument is one that JH would love Sox fans to believe.

 

 

I wasn’t looking at it financially. I meant from a pitching depth perspective.

 

The Sox lost out on Sale for most of the 4 previous seasons, and had no replacement ready for this despite it becoming a repeated inevitability.

 

The Braves had a slew of young pitchers, the bulk of were MLB ready but inexperienced. If they didn’t want to rely on any of Waldrep, Smith-Shawver, Elder, Schwellenbach, Vines, or Dodd for a full season, Sale was a good option to take. Unlike the Sox, they didn’t need Sale to stay healthy all season. Because they had the arms behind him the Sox didn’t have.

 

So yes, their depth put them in a better position to gamble on Sale…

[notin]

This is all gibberish.

 

The simple fact is the Red Sox didn't have to make this trade. They had very little to lose by keeping Sale. That's all I've been saying all along.

 

They rolled the dice and got burned big time. It is what it is.

 

It’s not gibberish.

 

If the Sox dealt Sale last year and used the money to sign a pitcher more durable than Kluber, do you still feel that way?

 

They have Ben burned in tjs plan multiple ways. Giolito falling apart. Grissom never showing up. Sale being electric. Given the season to date, certainly Breslow doesn’t make this deal. But he didn’t have the data and eventssince February to make this decision.

[notin]

What pitcher represents a better gamble?

 

Pitcher A - 37yo with 240IP over the 3 previous seasons, including 164IP the season before?

 

Pitcher B - 35yo with 150IP over the 3 previous seasons, with a high of 102IP over that stretch?

 

Couldn’t help but notice you didn’t answer this.

[Dipre]

I don't understand why you waste your time notin. Chris Sale was traded at the end of december. By that time, the new pitching infrastructure was set, and Andrew Bailey had enough time to specify his pitching philosophy and identify pitchers who could adapt to it.

 

Chris Sale is still throwing over 45% combined fastballs this season, in stark contrast to the Sox' new, (and so far very effective) pitching philosophy. It's very annoying to have smart people come to black/white conclusions about everything because "waaaaah Henry didn't wanna spend". On another note, Sale's fastballs have negative run values by most metrics (-2.7 for 4FSB, -1.4 for his sinker) while providing extraordinary value for his slider. Coupled with his health, and the Red Sox' clear need for a second base option, I don't understand the incessant whining, I really don't.

[notin]

Makes zero sense.

 

So if the Sox re-signed Kluber, would you have liked or disliked it?

[Bellhorn04]

So if the Sox re-signed Kluber, would you have liked or disliked it?

 

No relevance.

[Dipre]

Well, I would hope you realize you're presenting a whole different set of arguments from what the vast majority of the arguments about trading Sale have been.

 

Point taken. But I would like to stress that not every decision taken for this organization is made because Henry doesn't want to spend money. Currently, there's a method to the madness. I'm still weary of this team's ability to identify veteran talent on large scale contracts, but I think the current org infrastructure is better prepared at both the MiLB and MLB levels. All of this is to say that I kinda understand what they're trying to do, and I don't they will be forever averse to spending, in spite of what most people think.

[Bellhorn04]

Plus Sale's numbers would indicate that what he's doing is working just fine. I thought Bailey's philosophy was for guys to do what they do best.

[notin]

Well, I would hope you realize you're presenting a whole different set of arguments from what the vast majority of the arguments about trading Sale have been.

 

It is, but is it wrong?

 

I never thought about whether or not Sale fit their system; I just didn’t like having every season depend him only to be let down. Your argument is it was solely done for financial reasons. I actually didn’t like that one because the Sox contributed so much money and got a prospect they liked in return as opposed to just dumping the entire contract with minimal to nothing coming back.

 

Given this new viewpoint, do you still feel trading Sale was unnecessary?

[Bellhorn04]

All of this is to say that I kinda understand what they're trying to do, and I don't they will be forever averse to spending, in spite of what most people think.

 

We're all free to speculate our asses off, when it comes to that.

[notin]

No relevance.

 

Why not?

 

Sale and Kluber had a lot in common. Two aging pitchers who once dominated the AL but both pitching sparingly in recent years due to a combination of age and injury…

[Bellhorn04]

It is, but is it wrong?

 

I never thought about whether or not Sale fit their system; I just didn’t like having every season depend him only to be let down. Your argument is it was solely done for financial reasons. I actually didn’t like that one because the Sox contributed so much money and got a prospect they liked in return as opposed to just dumping the entire contract with minimal to nothing coming back.

 

Given this new viewpoint, do you still feel trading Sale was unnecessary?

 

Yes, I do.