Chris Sale traded to Braves

[moonslav59]

not a top of the rotation one. People have been saying that for years but teams are loathe to give up top young arms

 

Here are the top pitchers by fWAR from 2023-2024 and how they were acquired:

 

Wheeler: Traded to Mets in '11/ FA '19

S Gray: Traded '17, traded '19, traded '22, FA '24

Z Gallen: Traded '17, traded '19

L Webb: Drafted

Gausman: FA '19, FA '20, FA '21

Z Eflin: Traded '14 (twice), FA '22 (not expensive)

Strider: Drafted

Kirby: Drafted

Lopez: Traded '17, Traded '23

Skubal: Drafted

Cease: Traded '17, Traded '24

Cole: Traded '19, FA '19

Glasnow: Traded '18, Traded '23

A Nola: Drafted/ FA (re-sign) '23

Burnes: Traded '24

Steele: Drafted

Castillo: Traded '16 (twice), Traded '17, Traded '22 (extended)

Monty: Traded '22, Traded '23, FA '24 (1 year deal)

S Lugo: FA '22, FA '23 (moderate deal)

 

6 out of 20 were acquired by trade in the last 1-2.5 years)

2 more were acquired by trade over 3 years ago

7 were acquired through Free Agency, some not at a high cost or long term.

6 were drafted

 

Not many traded for were "young," but some were not old, and some are very good pitchers.

 

8 by trade

7 by FA

5 by draft and holding on

 

I'd have traded Duran for Castillo and maybe Lopez. Cease? Maybe. Burnes? Not for 1 year. Glasnow? No.

 

Edited May 22, 2024 by moonslav59

[notin]

not a top of the rotation one. People have been saying that for years but teams are loathe to give up top young arms

 

And yet it seems to happen anyway.

 

Zac Gallen being a prime example. Also Tyler Glasgow, Dylan Cease, Cole Ragans, Joe Ryan, AJ Puk, Sandy Alcantara, etc..

[mvp 78]

As much as I’d love to pencil Story in at 2nd next year can we really trust him?

 

I mean if Sale stays healthy all year maybe there is hope.

 

Pencil him at 2B with Grissom on the bench as backup. Could do worse.

[Randy Red Sox]

And yet it seems to happen anyway.

 

Zac Gallen being a prime example. Also Tyler Glasgow, Dylan Cease, Cole Ragans, Joe Ryan, AJ Puk, Sandy Alcantara, etc..

 

how many of those have the Sox acquired?

[Hugh2]

Pencil him at 2B with Grissom on the bench as backup. Could do worse.

 

If he hits as advertised I would love to see Grissom in a super utility role, the kind where he's getting 400 AB's a year.

[notin]

how many of those have the Sox acquired?

 

You just said other teams don't trade them. I named several examples of pitchers they did trade. Naming one team that does not have one (unless you count Pivetta) doesn't disprove this.

 

But if you like, the Sox did trade for Pedro and Sale, which have been two of the best TOR arms in the last 30 years, and the Sox traded for them both...

[notin]

Pencil him at 2B with Grissom on the bench as backup. Could do worse.

 

Next year they also might start Story at SS and hold off on Mayer until Trevor gets injured...

[moonslav59]

how many of those have the Sox acquired?

 

That is the issue, not that no teams are offering them in trade.

 

We had several chances to make better offers, and we have a strong enough farm to propose top offers.

[Hugh2]

And yet it seems to happen anyway.

 

Zac Gallen being a prime example. Also Tyler Glasgow, Dylan Cease, Cole Ragans, Joe Ryan, AJ Puk, Sandy Alcantara, etc..

 

so seven guys......spread out over how many years? there's 30 teams in baseball looking for pitching.

 

Teams like to keep young pitching isn't analogous with teams keep all of their pitching.

[Maxbialystock]

That is the issue, not that no teams are offering them in trade.

 

We had several chances to make better offers, and we have a strong enough farm to propose top offers.

 

Think of me as John Henry so I can tell you that spending big--in dollars or prospects--on pitchers is stupid. Right now the Sox rotation--Bello, Pivetta, Crawford, Whitlock (on the IL, maybe for the season), Houck, and now Criswell--is the primary reason why the Sox team ERA, 2.95, is just a tad behind the Yankees 2.92 for the best team ERA in MLB.

 

And the Sox are paying those six starters a total of $15M this season, $1M less than Kenley Jansen, the closer who these days basically gets by with one pitch, a cutter. Last night he threw 11 pitches, including 10 cutters and 1 slider--and he got the save (with no runs scored), but the Rays hit the ball hard.

[Maxbialystock]

Since this thread is about Sale, I agree with the general belief that the Braves outsmarted us by giving up Grissom to get Sale, with the Sox paying Sale's $17M salary this year.

 

On the other hand, while I would love to see 2024 Chris Sale in the Sox rotation, I like the one we have. In fact, so far, after 49 games, they are probably the best Sox rotation in 50 years.

[mvp 78]

If he hits as advertised I would love to see Grissom in a super utility role, the kind where he's getting 400 AB's a year.

 

Brock Holt had a few seasons with the Sox where he got 500, but I think 300-500 is reasonable for a really good UTIL guy.

[mvp 78]

Next year they also might start Story at SS and hold off on Mayer until Trevor gets injured...

 

You trying to 4 year ARB Mayer?

[mvp 78]

And yet it seems to happen anyway.

 

Zac Gallen being a prime example. Also Tyler Glasgow, Dylan Cease, Cole Ragans, Joe Ryan, AJ Puk, Sandy Alcantara, etc..

 

Beckett

[notin]

so seven guys......spread out over how many years? there's 30 teams in baseball looking for pitching.

 

Teams like to keep young pitching isn't analogous with teams keep all of their pitching.

 

First of all, it was seven off the top of my head. Was I supposed to name every young pitcher who was traded to disprove that no young pitchers get traded?

 

Second, there are two philosophies with young pitchers. Some teams E absolutely do like to keep them. But others don’t mind dealing them because they pan out at a much lower rate than position players. I only named pitchers who have panned out; the list of high profile pitching prospects that didn’t and got traded is much, much larger…

[notin]

You trying to 4 year ARB Mayer?

 

Yes. My influence with Breslow is strong…

[Hugh2]

First of all, it was seven off the top of my head. Was I supposed to name every young pitcher who was traded to disprove that no young pitchers get traded?

 

Second, there are two philosophies with young pitchers. Some teams E absolutely do like to keep them. But others don’t mind dealing them because they pan out at a much lower rate than position players. I only named pitchers who have panned out; the list of high profile pitching prospects that didn’t and got traded is much, much larger…

 

Teams deal young pitching because they’re cheap small market teams and when said player is entering expensive arby years and the team is nowhere near competing, team cashes in for a haul of prospects.

[notin]

Since this thread is about Sale, I agree with the general belief that the Braves outsmarted us by giving up Grissom to get Sale, with the Sox paying Sale's $17M salary this year.

 

On the other hand, while I would love to see 2024 Chris Sale in the Sox rotation, I like the one we have. In fact, so far, after 49 games, they are probably the best Sox rotation in 50 years.

 

46 years. That 1978 rotation with Eck, Tiant, Lee and Torrez was king. Not that s***** 1974 rotation with Tiant, Lee, Reggie DH

 

 

[mvp 78]

Yes. My influence with Breslow is strong…

 

Not mine.

[mvp 78]

Teams deal young pitching because they’re cheap small market teams and when said player is entering expensive arby years and the team is nowhere near competing, team cashes in for a haul of prospects.

 

Trade an expensive player and wish on 3 lottery tickets. It doesn't always work out, but it may someday.

[mvp 78]

46 years. That 1978 rotation with Eck, Tiant, Lee and Torrez was king. Not that s***** 1974 rotation with Tiant, Lee, Reggie DH

 

 

 

Tell that to the Hamster that pulled Lee out of the rotation.

[moonslav59]

The best rotation ERA- since at least 1967:

 

64 BOS 2024 and PHI 2024 (in progress)

70 LAD 2022

71 CHC '16, CLE '20

72 LAD '21

73 ATL '98, LAD '19, CIN '20, ATL '97

 

SOX Best

2024 (64)

2002 (77) Pedro 2.26, Lowe 2.58, Wake 2.81, Burkett 4.53, Castillo 5.07, Fossum 3.46

1990 (81) Clemens 1.93, Boddicker 3.36, 3.38 Bolton, 3.97 Kiecker, 4.00 Harris

1999 (82) Pedro 2.07, Saberhagen 2.95, 4.12 Rapp, Rose 4.87, Portugal 5.51

1993 (84) Sele 2.74, 3.26 Darwin, 3.14 Viola, 4.46 Clemens, Dopson 4.97, Quantrill 3.91

2018 (85) Sale 2.11, Price 3.58, ERod 3.82, Nate 3.33, Porcello 4.28, Johnson 4.17

1986 (86) Clemens 2.48, Hurst 2.99, 3.78 Boyd, 3.80 Seaver, Nipper 5.38

1978 (87) Eckersley 2.99, Tiant 3.31, Lee 3.46, Wright 3.57, Torrez 3.96 (notin has a good point)

1992 (88)

2017, 1979, 2008 (89)

1973, 2000, 2007 (90)

2004, 1995 (91)

2013, 1998, 1994 (92)

 

I like the 2002 and 1986 rotations, a lot. To me, 2018 was the best.

 

The 2004 one was great, but Wake was at 4.87 that year, and Lowe was at 5.42.

 

Best fWAR rotations:

1990 (20.6)

2002 (19.9)

1999 (19.7)

2004 (18.2)

1992 (18.1)

2003 (17.7)

 

Edited May 22, 2024 by moonslav59

[notin]

Teams deal young pitching because they’re cheap small market teams and when said player is entering expensive arby years and the team is nowhere near competing, team cashes in for a haul of prospects.

 

Some teams just deal them to complete trades. Like how the Sox got Pivetta, Fitts, Winckowski, Sandlin and Judice…

[notin]

Tell that to the Hamster that pulled Lee out of the rotation.

 

I tried using my Ouija Board. No dice so far…

[moonslav59]

Some teams just deal them to complete trades. Like how the Sox got Pivetta, Fitts, Winckowski, Sandlin and Judice…

 

Within 8 years or so, we also got Sale, ERod, Nate, Kimbrell & Porcello by trade.

 

And, lessers like Kelly, Ottavino, Pom, Wright & Hembree.

[Hugh2]

Some teams just deal them to complete trades. Like how the Sox got Pivetta, Fitts, Winckowski, Sandlin and Judice…

 

And how many of those guys are TOTRS? 3 of them don’t even have MLB experience.

 

Teams are more willing to deal prospects than young, proven, cost controlled pitching e.g. white Sox Chris Sale.

 

It’s a lot easier to trade for the next Josh Winckowski than it is Spencer Strider.

[moonslav59]

And how many of those guys are TOTRS? 3 of them don’t even have MLB experience.

 

Teams are more willing to deal prospects than young, proven, cost controlled pitching e.g. white Sox Chris Sale.

 

It’s a lot easier to trade for the next Josh Winckowski than it is Spencer Strider.

 

How about Luis Castillo, Pablo Lopez, Dylan Cease and Burnes?

[Hugh2]

How about Luis Castillo, Pablo Lopez, Dylan Cease and Burnes?

 

Weren’t all those guys rentals?

 

Sure some of them signed extensions and that’s the right ideal if you trade for them and feel co didn’t you can do so.

 

But didn’t they all have .5-1 year or team control.

[Hugh2]

Feel confident you can do so*

[notin]

And how many of those guys are TOTRS? 3 of them don’t even have MLB experience.

 

Teams are more willing to deal prospects than young, proven, cost controlled pitching e.g. white Sox Chris Sale.

 

It’s a lot easier to trade for the next Josh Winckowski than it is Spencer Strider.

 

You should see how easy it was to trade for Pablo Lopez. Not when Minnesota did it; when Miami did…