Chris Sale traded to Braves

[moonslav59]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the whole purpose of stats like WAR is to eliminate all the luck and randomness stuff you're trying to apply here.

 

"All else being equal", Sale's 2 WAR performance would obviously have made us a better team to this point. Whether it would have added exactly 2 wins we don't know. Might have been 3, might have been 1, because of the randomness of the game.

 

True. With the team 3-7 in Crawford starts, you never know.

 

Certainly, up to now, having Sale over Grissom would have given us a much better chance at winning 1-4 more games.

 

Going forward is the great unknown.

[mvp 78]

LOL man ya'll are funny.

 

I'd rather have hitting right now than pitching. How are we doing with RISP again? what is a bigger problem on this team?

 

Sure, Grissom doesn't look like a good pick up at the moment in hindsight but a RH hitting bat was one of our biggest needs in the offseason.

 

We've lost almost 1/4 of all the games we've played by 3 runs or less. Maybe with Chris Sale we'd lose 0-3 instead of 0-7 that one time.

 

They traded Sale for Grissom, not Ketel Marté. If they needed hitting, they should have gotten it. Grissom will be a question mark until he actually produces at the MLB level. I'd rather go with him than the other guys they have, but that's not saying much.

[mvp 78]

No it's doesn't, but improving in the area you're most deficient in is going to go further in making you better, that's pretty simple logic and math too.

 

Did this trade improve them at 2B? We haven't seen it yet.

[Hugh2]

Did this trade improve them at 2B? We haven't seen it yet.

 

No we have not.

 

But if the offense and defense were to improve this team would be much better.

[mvp 78]

There was a very mixed initial response to this trade, from what I observed. A lot of people liked it because Grissom seemed like a really good get and of course many wrote Sale off. But some questioned what the hell we were doing moving Sale when everyone agreed the team's biggest need was starting pitching. At the time, no one but no one expected Houck and Crawford to be as good as they have been so far.

 

When they traded Sale, it seemed like a move that was putting this season into the punt category.

[Bellhorn04]

No we have not.

 

But if the offense and defense were to improve this team would be much better.

 

And they had other options to improve the offense with something a little more proven than Grissom.

[mvp 78]

I’m not giving a final grade to the trade, but like I keep saying the here, and now is what’s most important at the moment, and at the moment Sale is great, and Gus has pretty much sucked. I didn’t expect any great D from him at 2B either. If he was hitting better it wouldn’t look as bad, but he’s not. Still plenty of games left in the season for things to change though, and something probably will. Grissom is not this bad.

 

I don't think anyone is even applying a FINAL grade right now. I think it's fine to state how you feel right now and provide a status update.

[mvp 78]

You're saying that at the end of December, with a ton of unsigned free agents still out there, we had already all given up on 2024?

 

What you're saying is it was a punt move. I think that's exactly what worried me about it at the time, and why I really hate it now.

 

At some point, they were waving the white flag and a lot of us were hoping it was just them putting the laundry on the clothesline.

[mvp 78]

No we have not.

 

But if the offense and defense were to improve this team would be much better.

 

Well, tell that to Grissom.

[Hugh2]

Well, tell that to Grissom.

 

Yes Grissom hasn’t produced to date. I get that.

[moonslav59]

Yes Grissom hasn’t produced to date. I get that.

 

We all do.

 

He might end up being the next Jeter Downs, although he never made the bigs.

 

He seemed to have a decent bat with ATL over 64 games and 236 PAs (.746 OPS,) but maybe that was just fluff. His D at SS was lacking, but many felt he'd be okay to decent at 2B. He got hurt, got sick, lost a ton of weight, and missed some ST'ing. He has played in 13 games with 53 PAs. I'd say he has given us nothing to a negative value, so far, but it's just 13 games. He has something like 5 more years to prove himself.

 

[Hugh2]

We all do.

 

He might end up being the next Jeter Downs, although he never made the bigs.

 

He seemed to have a decent bat with ATL over 64 games and 236 PAs (.746 OPS,) but maybe that was just fluff. His D at SS was lacking, but many felt he'd be okay to decent at 2B. He got hurt, got sick, lost a ton of weight, and missed some ST'ing. He has played in 13 games with 53 PAs. I'd say he has given us nothing to a negative value, so far, but it's just 13 games. He has something like 5 more years to prove himself.

 

 

He's already done more than Jeter Down ever will do in the majors and he reached bigs 4 years before Dalbec did, every level 3 years+ younger with almost 1/3 the K% I'm certainly not going to make any of these comparisions.

 

I can differentiate between a trade not working out yet and appreciating why it was made and still have confidence in the long term outlook of said player.

[Bellhorn04]

He has something like 5 more years to prove himself.

 

"Not really" says the aforementioned Jeter Downs.

[moonslav59]

"Not really" says the aforementioned Jeter Downs.

 

Correct. It MAY end up being less or way less than 5 more years, but that is really a pessimist view (kinda like the view most of had on Sale ever doing anything for us, again.)

[mvp 78]

Chris Sale has a higher career OPS with BOS than Vaughn Grissom. Should have kept him and let him play 2B on non-throwing days.

[mvp 78]

We all do.

 

He might end up being the next Jeter Downs, although he never made the bigs.

 

He seemed to have a decent bat with ATL over 64 games and 236 PAs (.746 OPS,) but maybe that was just fluff. His D at SS was lacking, but many felt he'd be okay to decent at 2B. He got hurt, got sick, lost a ton of weight, and missed some ST'ing. He has played in 13 games with 53 PAs. I'd say he has given us nothing to a negative value, so far, but it's just 13 games. He has something like 5 more years to prove himself.

 

 

Downs made the big leagues. He even hit a HR for BOS.

[Old Red]

We all do.

 

He might end up being the next Jeter Downs, although he never made the bigs.

 

He seemed to have a decent bat with ATL over 64 games and 236 PAs (.746 OPS,) but maybe that was just fluff. His D at SS was lacking, but many felt he'd be okay to decent at 2B. He got hurt, got sick, lost a ton of weight, and missed some ST'ing. He has played in 13 games with 53 PAs. I'd say he has given us nothing to a negative value, so far, but it's just 13 games. He has something like 5 more years to prove himself.

 

 

5 more years? He has to prove himself right now,because he might not get this chance again. The need is now, and next year maybe not so much depending on what happens with Mayer, and Story. The Ham Man is playing better than Grissom right now, so now this isn’t a 5 year trial period.

[Old Red]

I don't think anyone is even applying a FINAL grade right now. I think it's fine to state how you feel right now and provide a status update.

 

Isn’t it the Boston way with what have you done for me lately? Look at Raffy he can hit a HR in 1 AB, and he’s Devers Forevers, and the next AB he can K with 2 men on, and he Never Devers. How someone gets off to a start in Boston is always big for a new player. Duvall, and O’Neil got off hot, but Grissom just the opposite.

[Hugh2]

5 more years? He has to prove himself right now,because he might not get this chance again. The need is now, and next year maybe not so much depending on what happens with Mayer, and Story. The Ham Man is playing better than Grissom right now, so now this isn’t a 5 year trial period.

 

Atlanta moved him off position because they had the most talented positional core in the MLB. I could easily see Grissom turning into a 2B/SS/LF/3B type in the same mold.....if the Sox wanted to. Like much of anything, he has to hit.

 

I think he will in time, but my thoughts don't drive outcomes.

 

He also has two options, so he doesn't have to right now. He can go down the minors and work on some things.

[moonslav59]

Downs made the big leagues. He even hit a HR for BOS.

 

How could I have forgotten?

 

He even had a better OPS with BOS than Grissom has, and less PAs.

[moonslav59]

Atlanta moved him off position because they had the most talented positional core in the MLB. I could easily see Grissom turning into a 2B/SS/LF/3B type in the same mold.....if the Sox wanted to. Like much of anything, he has to hit.

 

I think he will in time, but my thoughts don't drive outcomes.

 

He also has two options, so he doesn't have to right now. He can go down the minors and work on some things.

 

His D should be okay at 2B as the floor.

 

It's not like he has never hit the ball hard, but clearly he has been struggling in his first 13 games. Had sale gotten hurt or sucked, I doubt this would be such a hot topic.

[mvp 78]

How could I have forgotten?

 

He even had a better OPS with BOS than Grissom has, and less PAs.

 

I vaguely remember him having a walkoff or scoring on a walkoff as well.

[moonslav59]

I vaguely remember him having a walkoff or scoring on a walkoff as well.

 

His only homer came when we were down 3-0 vs the yanks. He made it 3-2 in the 3rd.

 

He did score a game winning run vs the Yanks as a PR'er. Dugo knocked him in.

[Hugh2]

How could I have forgotten?

 

He even had a better OPS with BOS than Grissom has, and less PAs.

 

Vaughn vs. Downs

 

 

MLB .663 .533

AAA .915 - .696

AA .925 - 1.116

A+ .918 - .852

A .848 - .753

 

With the exception of AA Grissom has been better than Downs at EVERY level.

 

With the one caveat being AA, which ironically is a very small sample size for both players, also both skipped a level. Grissom at 21 and thrown right into a Penant race as a kid and still put up a .792 OPS with the heat on him.

 

Given his larger body of work, youth, and the fact he had no spring training. There's a lot to be optimistic about.

 

Now none of that means it's guranteed he will turn it around and become a stud, but he's done a lot more than to be compared to Jeter Downs.

[moonslav59]

Speaking of ex-Sox players...

 

Some 2024 Numbers:

OPS

.978 Betts

.821 JD M (83 PAs)

.812 T Pham (92)

.774 Moncada (44)

.748 Dubon

.734 Verdugo

.727 Schwarber

.662 Turner

.627 Duvall (79)

.602 Urias (88)

.581 Bogey (not hearing any crying over Bogey, these days)

.540 Espinal

.513 Margot

.494 Beni (should we trade Wink & Gambrell for Beni?)

.486 Renfroe (How about DHam for Renfroe?)

.368 Vazquez (Abreu & Valdez?)

 

ERA (If under 40 IP, noted)

0.95 Strahm (19 IP)

2.11 Beeks (21)

2.22 Sale

2.61 Nate

2.84 Paxton

2.95 Ottavino (18)

3.20 R Fernandez (20)

3.32 Kopech (22)

3.45 Diekman (16)

3.63 Kimbrel (17)

4.37 Montas (35)

4.45 Wacha

4.63 Brasier 912)

4.70 Payamps (15)

6.75 Barnes (13)

 

I might have missed a few.

 

 

[moonslav59]

Vaughn vs. Downs

 

 

MLB .663 .533

AAA .915 - .696

AA .925 - 1.116

A+ .918 - .852

A .848 - .753

 

With the exception of AA Grissom has been better than Downs at EVERY level.

 

With the one caveat being AA, which ironically is a very small sample size for both players, also both skipped a level. Grissom at 21 and thrown right into a Penant race as a kid and still put up a .792 OPS with the heat on him.

 

Given his larger body of work, youth, and the fact he had no spring training. There's a lot to be optimistic about.

 

Now none of that means it's guranteed he will turn it around and become a stud, but he's done a lot more than to be compared to Jeter Downs.

 

I'm still optimistic about Grissom being our fine 2Bman for 5 years.

[mvp 78]

I'm still optimistic about Grissom being our fine 2Bman for 5 years.

 

If Story is healthy, Grissom being a UTIL guy isn't the end of the world.

[Old Red]

If Story is healthy, Grissom being a UTIL guy isn't the end of the world.

 

Agree, and like I said earlier the Red Sox have a big need at 2B this year, but next year that need might not be there, or as big, so I don’t see Grissom getting nowhere near 5 years to prove himself at 2B.

[moonslav59]

If Story is healthy, Grissom being a UTIL guy isn't the end of the world.

 

True, and if Story moves to 3B....

 

We also have the Mayer squeeze as a possibility next year or 2026.

[dgalehouse]

If you thought Sale for Grissom was a good trade for Boston, it's okay to say " I was wrong about that."