Red Sox: Off Season '23-'24

[Old Red]

I was just refuting the "empty seats" comment. Major moves won't matter if they don't win.

 

Attendance is down to pre-2003 levels. Maybe it's just where the fanbase is? Are they burnt out? Is it a function of the rollercoaster the ownership has put us on?

 

Burn out? Sooner, or later I don’t know if people are going to keep paying the High ticket prices that are going up again to go on the rollercoaster.

[moonslav59]

Burn out? Sooner, or later I don’t know if people are going to keep paying the High ticket prices that are going up again to go on the rollercoaster.

 

201 and counting.

[Old Red]

201 and counting.

 

If you listen to all the people that I hear, and talk to it’s 1201, and counting.

[moonslav59]

If you listen to all the people that I hear, and talk to it’s 1201, and counting.

 

I don't doubt that, at all.

 

I think we all know about the ticket prices going up and up as the product provided is not.

 

We all know it is a major concern to you and others, as is the rising cost of cable TV and all these sports networks.

 

It sucks. People keep paying, so any business would charge what people will pay. Look at concert prices. The rise in Sox tix looks like chump change compared to those costs.

[cp176]

Those teams, along with ‘78’s were good enough to win, when healthy, but we never seemed to go that extra step with the wallet, especially with pitching.

 

I did not mention ‘86 for a reason. We had pitching, but there were holes onthat team, too.

 

I give enormous credit to this ownership group that went that extra mile to make sure we built teams with as few flaws as possible. They hired the right guys to make sure we had some great windows of opportunity and had SPers that knew how to win.

 

I’m not sure we have 4 rings without JH. I wasn’t trying to slight some of our past GMs and leadership groups.

 

Oh I know you weren't trying to slight anyone from the past. I wasn't really trying to make any specific point but if I was it would have been that any one of those teams could have won a championship with just a little luck on their side and luck is hard to buy these days. Henry gets a great deal of deserved love in Red Sox nations as well he should, but personally I was pretty pleased with many of the efforts made before he came along.

[moonslav59]

Oh I know you weren't trying to slight anyone from the past. I wasn't really trying to make any specific point but if I was it would have been that any one of those teams could have won a championship with just a little luck on their side and luck is hard to buy these days. Henry gets a great deal of deserved love in Red Sox nations as well he should, but personally I was pretty pleased with many of the efforts made before he came along.

 

Me, too. Sometimes the frustration becomes so much, I forget to point out that fact.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Those Red Sox teams in the 1970s were always making moves to acquire quality pitching. They swung trades for All-Star starters like Sonny Siebert, Rick Wise, Ferguson Jenkins and Dennis Eckersly. They also picked up Luis Tiant at a flea market, and when free agency began, signed the top AL reliever in Bill Campbell and World Series champ Mike Torrez.

 

Ultimately, they couldn't go deep into October again until they cultivated pitchers on their own farm: Clemens, Hurst, Boyd, etc.

 

But of course, the Sox never won any post-Babe rings until they went all in for big game hunters like Martinez and Schilling (with some foresight through the years by adding Wake, Lowe, Arroyo and Foulke).

[Bellhorn04]

Those Red Sox teams in the 1970s were always making moves to acquire quality pitching. They swung trades for All-Star starters like Sonny Siebert, Rick Wise, Ferguson Jenkins and Dennis Eckersly. They also picked up Luis Tiant at a flea market, and when free agency began, signed the top AL reliever in Bill Campbell and World Series champ Mike Torrez.

 

Ultimately, they couldn't go deep into October again until they cultivated pitchers on their own farm: Clemens, Hurst, Boyd, etc.

 

But of course, the Sox never won any post-Babe rings until they went all in for big game hunters like Martinez and Schilling (with some foresight through the years by adding Wake, Lowe, Arroyo and Foulke).

 

Timlin and Embree too.

[moonslav59]

Those Red Sox teams in the 1970s were always making moves to acquire quality pitching. They swung trades for All-Star starters like Sonny Siebert, Rick Wise, Ferguson Jenkins and Dennis Eckersly. They also picked up Luis Tiant at a flea market, and when free agency began, signed the top AL reliever in Bill Campbell and World Series champ Mike Torrez.

 

Ultimately, they couldn't go deep into October again until they cultivated pitchers on their own farm: Clemens, Hurst, Boyd, etc.

 

But of course, the Sox never won any post-Babe rings until they went all in for big game hunters like Martinez and Schilling (with some foresight through the years by adding Wake, Lowe, Arroyo and Foulke).

 

They also did try to spend on Rollie Fingers and Joe Rudi, so there was a time period where it did look like they were willing to "go that extra mile."

 

While the guys you mentioned were big names, many were over the hill or close to it. Tian'ts resurgence was amazing, but not really predictable.

 

I saw the Catfish Hunter signing by the Yanks, along with countless others, and it was frustrating to see us avoid going the full distance.

[mvp 78]

Timlin and Embree too.

 

Oh, the guys they had in that horrible 2003 bullpen that couldn't be trusted to take over for Pedro in Game 7. What good were they?

[Nick]

So Rays are out in 2 games. Looking back they had an unbelievable start. I'm not sure how I would deal with being outstated so quickly.

 

I never thought this Sox team was good enough to win it all so I am not as angry. I did flip out with the Kike situation but that worked out.

 

There were many positives. I still think we are couple of years away from challenging for the title. But the Sox need to go all in not only this year but next. Many of our young players will have another year of experirence.

[moonslav59]

So Rays are out in 2 games. Looking back they had an unbelievable start. I'm not sure how I would deal with being outstated so quickly.

 

I never thought this Sox team was good enough to win it all so I am not as angry. I did flip out with the Kike situation but that worked out.

 

There were many positives. I still think we are couple of years away from challenging for the title. But the Sox need to go all in not only this year but next. Many of our young players will have another year of experirence.

 

If we don't go all in, this year, we need to add 2-3 players with longer term deals that rate to still be good in 2-3 years, when maybe the "true window" opens wide.

 

I hate the ides of thinking 2-3 years ahead, continuously. We've been in this mode since the trade deadline in 2019 (4.5 years.) Now, we are looking at another 1 year added on?

 

It's easy for me to say, JH just has to step it up on spending, and I have expected that to happen the last 1-2 years, but it's gotten to the point, where I'm not expecting it, but still think it could happen.

[Nick]

If we don't go all in, this year, we need to add 2-3 players with longer term deals that rate to still be good in 2-3 years, when maybe the "true window" opens wide.

 

I hate the ides of thinking 2-3 years ahead, continuously. We've been in this mode since the trade deadline in 2019 (4.5 years.) Now, we are looking at another 1 year added on?

 

It's easy for me to say, JH just has to step it up on spending, and I have expected that to happen the last 1-2 years, but it's gotten to the point, where I'm not expecting it, but still think it could happen.

I'd like to follow what the Rangers did except in reverse. Instead two big bats, go for 2 big time starters. Then add couple of more big bats the following year.

 

The window of opportunity is here. We have 5-6 years of window.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I'd like to follow what the Rangers did except in reverse. Instead two big bats, go for 2 big time starters. Then add couple of more big bats the following year.

 

The window of opportunity is here. We have 5-6 years of window.

 

But as we've seen, the big bats -- as long as they're acquired in their primes -- are a better bet. Semien played all 162 games. deGrom and Scherzer pitched 14 games combined.

[moonslav59]

I'd like to follow what the Rangers did except in reverse. Instead two big bats, go for 2 big time starters. Then add couple of more big bats the following year.

 

The window of opportunity is here. We have 5-6 years of window.

 

So, is 2024 year 5 or 6?

[Nick]

2024 is year 2 for me.

We finally have a core group of young position players. We need a right handed bat but for me that core group is Wong Casas Story Devers Yoshida Duran Rafaela and Abreu.I would throw in Bello Houch Whitlock Wick and Kutter.

 

It's not final and subject to upgrading but clearly this is the new starting point.

 

You can throw in few minor leaguers that is projected to come up in 2024 or 2025.

 

But once we get there we should have the foundation to move forward.

 

Go get some starting pitching.

Nothing is possible without that.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Nick

[moonslav59]

2024 is year 2 for me.

We finally have a core group of young position players. We need a right handed bat but for me that core group is Wong Casas Story Devers Yoshida Duran Rafaela and Abreu.I would throw in Bello Houch Whitlock Wick and Kutter.

 

It's not final and subject to upgrading but clearly this is the new starting point.

 

You can throw in few minor leaguers that is projected to come up in 2024 or 2025.

 

But once we get there we should have the foundation to move forward.

 

Go get some starting pitching.

Nothing is possible without that.

 

The window is/was 2023-2028ish.

[Duran Is The Man]

But as we've seen, the big bats -- as long as they're acquired in their primes -- are a better bet. Semien played all 162 games. deGrom and Scherzer pitched 14 games combined.

 

too bad we didn't get Semien instead of Story. just another swing and miss by Bloom.

[Nick]

too bad we didn't get Semien instead of Story. just another swing and miss by Bloom.

 

Funny how some playoff teams have players that can play 162 games. Not in Boston. Rest, rest, rest.

[mvp 78]

Funny how some playoff teams have players that can play 162 games. Not in Boston. Rest, rest, rest.

 

How's he played so far in the playoffs?

[Nick]

How's he played so far in the playoffs?

 

We see eye to eye on many things. I'm little surprised that you would bring up his performance in 2 games to refute what I said.

 

You know that I'm just poking fun at Cora. I loved the scheduled day off near the All Star break. A day off before the 4 day break.

[Bellhorn04]

We see eye to eye on many things. I'm little surprised that you would bring up his performance in 2 games to refute what I said.

 

You know that I'm just poking fun at Cora. I loved the scheduled day off near the All Star break. A day off before the 4 day break.

 

Which day off before the All Star break do you mean?

[notin]

too bad we didn't get Semien instead of Story. just another swing and miss by Bloom.

 

Semien has only missed 11 games in the past 6 seasons!

[mvp 78]

We see eye to eye on many things. I'm little surprised that you would bring up his performance in 2 games to refute what I said.

 

You know that I'm just poking fun at Cora. I loved the scheduled day off near the All Star break. A day off before the 4 day break.

 

It's obvious to everyone that he's worn out from playing 162 games and won't OPS over 500 for 2023 playoffs. I figured that from my eye test of watching zero Rangers postseason games.

[mvp 78]

Semien has only missed 11 games in the past 6 seasons!

 

Missed 12% of the season 3 years ago.

[notin]

Missed 12% of the season 3 years ago.

 

He was very injury prone in 2020…

[mvp 78]

He was very injury prone in 2020…

 

What a lazy bones.

[Nick]

Which day off before the All Star break do you mean?

 

Here comes the fact checker. I believe you already told me it was more likely lefty lefty matchup.

 

Do you want me to do a deep dive? I'm busy right now coaching.

 

I will get back to you.

[moonslav59]

Here comes the fact checker. I believe you already told me it was more likely lefty lefty matchup.

 

Do you want me to do a deep dive? I'm busy right now coaching.

 

I will get back to you.

 

They gave Dugo the day off right before the AS break, but it was vs a LHPs. Ref started in LF (good idea) and Duvall started in RF (good idea.) When the lefty was pulled, Dugo cam in the game to replace Ref (good idea.)

 

I don't think this was a good example to criticize Cora.

[Duran Is The Man]

Semien has only missed 11 games in the past 6 seasons!

 

i know. i doubt we have anybody that has missed less than 11 games in a season the last 6 years.