Red Sox: Off Season '23-'24

[moonslav59]

6-12.🙈

 

I thought what happened in the past doesn't matter to you.

 

BTW....

 

Rings in last 12:

2 BOS

2 HOU

2 SFG

1 ATL, LAD, WSH, CHC, KCR, STL

 

Keep it balanced.

[notin]

I get the argument that we did not know this was what Wacha could have been signed for, when we inked Kluber, but without a doubt, his contract was more team friendly. It's not even close.

 

Per MLBTR, when the Sox and other teams talked to Wacha, he Al wanted 2 years $30mill. San Diego did give him that (plus an extra $2mill) but with a cheap year upfront followed by the team option, essentially giving Wacha a chance to prove he was worth his demand.

 

Now did he? When he pitched, he pitched well. But the prevailing question is exactly what it was always going to be - did he pitch enough? If they wanted durability, he flopped.

 

But there’s got to be a next-to-zero chance Wacha exercises his player option should San Diego decline. We all know he can do better…

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Per MLBTR, when the Sox and other teams talked to Wacha, he Al wanted 2 years $30mill. San Diego did give him that (plus an extra $2mill) but with a cheap year upfront followed by the team option, essentially giving Wacha a chance to prove he was worth his demand.

 

Now did he? When he pitched, he pitched well. But the prevailing question is exactly what it was always going to be - did he pitch enough? If they wanted durability, he flopped.

 

But there’s got to be a next-to-zero chance Wacha exercises his player option should San Diego decline. We all know he can do better…

 

But haven't the concepts of "durability"/starting pitcher/quality starts and even pitcher victories changed before our very eyes? Or are these issues just Red Sox-centric...

 

It reminds me of the year my school district collected all the novels from elementary classrooms and redesignated and then redistributed them to higher grades; the books had become too difficult at all the old levels because kids don't read enough any more.

[Bellhorn04]

But haven't the concepts of "durability"/starting pitcher/quality starts and even pitcher victories changed before our very eyes? Or are these issues just Red Sox-centric...

 

Yes, we're reaching the point that 150 innings makes you a horse...

[Maxbialystock]

Yes, we're reaching the point that 150 innings makes you a horse...

 

This season 58 MLB pitchers went 150 or more innings--or about 2 per team. The Sox had one, Bello with 157 innings.

 

Some simple math is revealing. 30 starts is a good season: 37 MLB pitchers, roughly one per team, had 30 or more starts this season. And 5 innings per start is, if not great, pretty close to standard, if only because of the statistical phenomenon that hitters get awfully tough the 3d time they face a starter in the same game.

 

On the other hand, a quality start requires 6 or more innings with 3 or fewer earned runs scored against. 28 MLB pitchers this year had 15 or more quality starts--and Bello was one of them.

 

So to me the new CBO/GM's job is simple. Get a starter who is likely to achieve 15 or more quality starts in a season.

 

However, I hasten to add that none of the following MLB pitchers had 15 quality starts this season: Wacha, Eovaldi, Ohtani, Verlander, Scherzer, ERod, Kershaw.

[notin]

This season 58 MLB pitchers went 150 or more innings--or about 2 per team. The Sox had one, Bello with 157 innings.

 

Some simple math is revealing. 30 starts is a good season: 37 MLB pitchers, roughly one per team, had 30 or more starts this season. And 5 innings per start is, if not great, pretty close to standard, if only because of the statistical phenomenon that hitters get awfully tough the 3d time they face a starter in the same game.

 

On the other hand, a quality start requires 6 or more innings with 3 or fewer earned runs scored against. 28 MLB pitchers this year had 15 or more quality starts--and Bello was one of them.

 

So to me the new CBO/GM's job is simple. Get a starter who is likely to achieve 15 or more quality starts in a season.

 

However, I hasten to add that none of the following MLB pitchers had 15 quality starts this season: Wacha, Eovaldi, Ohtani, Verlander, Scherzer, ERod, Kershaw.

 

Another big factor not mentioned in the reduction in IP/start is that every team has an 8 man bullpen…

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Another big factor not mentioned in the reduction in IP/start is that every team has an 8 man bullpen…

 

Agreed. It's more that clubs would rather bring in a conga line of fresh arms, rather than most hitters become Ted Williams the third or fourth time through the order.

 

Recall it was Ted that admitted sharp-eyed batters like he and Joe D. feasted off tired pitchers who were expected to finish what they started back in old-timey days -- and that he'd never be able to bat .400 in a game with modern relief aces.

[mvp 78]

So, it's all about the max in one season in the past 4 that makes a pitcher more durable?

 

How come Kluber can pitch 164 innings after a MAJOR INJURY, but Wacha can't in a normal year?

[Bellhorn04]

How come Kluber can pitch 164 innings after a MAJOR INJURY?

 

Seems like it may have been a bad idea.

 

You're the guy who says the Rays over-extend pitchers and then dispose of them. Kluber seems to fit that pattern.

[mvp 78]

Seems like it may have been a bad idea.

 

You're the guy who says the Rays over-extend pitchers and then dispose of them. Kluber seems to fit that pattern.

 

I don't believe Kluber is injured. I believe he's OLD!

[Bellhorn04]

I don't believe Kluber is injured. I believe he's OLD!

 

Could be both!

[mvp 78]

Could be both!

 

Could be we just like to argue.

[moonslav59]

Per MLBTR, when the Sox and other teams talked to Wacha, he Al wanted 2 years $30mill. San Diego did give him that (plus an extra $2mill) but with a cheap year upfront followed by the team option, essentially giving Wacha a chance to prove he was worth his demand.

 

Now did he? When he pitched, he pitched well. But the prevailing question is exactly what it was always going to be - did he pitch enough? If they wanted durability, he flopped.

 

But there’s got to be a next-to-zero chance Wacha exercises his player option should San Diego decline. We all know he can do better…

 

How is Wacha getting $30M "plus an extra 2?"

 

4 years/$26M (2023-26)

signed by San Diego as a free agent 2/16/23

$3.5M signing bonus

23:$4M, 24-25: club option at $16M annually

if club declines its 2024-25 option, Wacha has the right to exercise a player option for 3 years/$18.5M (24:$6.5M, 25:$6M, 26:$6M)

performance bonuses for 2023 and any player option seasons: $500,000 each for 20, 25 games started. $1M for 30 GS

 

He is guaranteed $7.5M/1 or $26M/4, if he takes the player option, after SD turns down the team option.

 

Am I missing something?

 

He gets $39.5M/3, if SD takes the option ($16M a year x 2). He is not guaranteed this. There isn't even a buyout.

 

The thing is, even at the time, I would rather have Wacha at $39.5M/3 than Kluber at $10M/1. it's a close call, though, but $7.5M/1 is the true cost.

[mvp 78]

How is Wacha getting $30M "plus an extra 2?"

 

4 years/$26M (2023-26)

signed by San Diego as a free agent 2/16/23

$3.5M signing bonus

23:$4M, 24-25: club option at $16M annually

if club declines its 2024-25 option, Wacha has the right to exercise a player option for 3 years/$18.5M (24:$6.5M, 25:$6M, 26:$6M)

performance bonuses for 2023 and any player option seasons: $500,000 each for 20, 25 games started. $1M for 30 GS

 

He is guaranteed $7.5M/1 or $26M/4, if he takes the player option, after SD turns down the team option.

 

Am I missing something?

 

He gets $39.5M/3, if SD takes the option ($16M a year x 2). He is not guaranteed this. There isn't even a buyout.

 

The thing is, even at the time, I would rather have Wacha at $39.5M/3 than Kluber at $10M/1. it's a close call, though, but $7.5M/1 is the true cost.

 

He's going FA and SD should try to buy him out for 2 years. Not sure they will. He's still a 12M AAV guy to me. If Sox offered him 3/36, I would be ok with it, but as a back of the rotation guy. Pivetta has provided more fWAR over the past 3 years than Wacha.

[Old Red]

Are we going to hear this 200 more times before opening day 2024?

 

It’s everywhere! It’s everywhere! Except on here.🤭

[Old Red]

OF OPS

 

.724 in 2021 with 240 RBI (many from Renfroe)

.676 in 2022 with 218 RBI

.783 in 2023 with 259 RBIs- your big stat.

 

90 rankings in DRS from 2021-2023

21. 2021 Sox +14

52. 2023 Sox -3 (about middle of the pack and better than 2022)

77. 2022 Sox -20

 

OAA

47. 2021 -1

76. 2023 -12

82. 2022 -14

 

But of course, your eye test on all 22 games you watched is most important.

You focus to much on how many games I watched, which is more than you think, but did your eye test in all the games you watched tell you anything different? That’s all I’ve heard pretty much all year long on how bad Yoshida, and Raffy were in the field. I thought that was the going theme. If not I’d hate to think what was.

[Old Red]

I thought what happened in the past doesn't matter to you.

 

BTW....

 

Rings in last 12:

2 BOS

2 HOU

2 SFG

1 ATL, LAD, WSH, CHC, KCR, STL

 

Keep it balanced.

I don’t care if they had won 6 rings in those other 6 years they didn’t finish in last place. 6 last place finishes would still be unacceptable.🙈

[notin]

I don’t care if they had won 6 rings in those other 6 years they didn’t finish in last place. 6 last place finishes would still be unacceptable.

 

So not finding last is more important than winning a World Series?

[Old Red]

So not finding last is more important than winning a World Series?

 

No one said that on here, or anywhere else. The main point is finishing last is unacceptable. You may enjoy it, but I don’t think most do.

[moonslav59]

You focus to much on how many games I watched, which is more than you think, but did your eye test in all the games you watched tell you anything different? That’s all I’ve heard pretty much all year long on how bad Yoshida, and Raffy were in the field. I thought that was the going theme. If not I’d hate to think what was.

 

Just stop saying eye test, when you don't watch the games, and I'll stop bringing up how many game you DON'T watch.

[moonslav59]

I don’t care if they had won 6 rings in those other 6 years they didn’t finish in last place. 6 last place finishes would still be unacceptable.🙈

 

Either you care about the past or you don't, but it seems like the past does matter, when you want it to.

[moonslav59]

No one said that on here, or anywhere else. The main point is finishing last is unacceptable. You may enjoy it, but I don’t think most do.

 

"You may enjoy it" is so typical of your blather.

[Old Red]

Just stop saying eye test, when you don't watch the games, and I'll stop bringing up how many game you DON'T watch.

 

I watched 100+ games this year, which was more than enough to know what went on.

[Old Red]

Either you care about the past or you don't, but it seems like the past does matter, when you want it to.

 

OK the here, and now the 2023 season , which was a last place finish. UNACCEPTABLE!

[moonslav59]

I watched 100+ games this year, which was more than enough to know what went on.

 

If you say so.

[moonslav59]

OK the here, and now the 2023 season , which was a last place finish. UNACCEPTABLE!

 

Don't accept reality, if you choose.

 

The 2023 season is in the past, to me. It sucked, badly. I accept we sucked, because it happened. Obviously changes were made based on that acceptability falling below a certain level. Congrats! You got what you wanted.

Edited October 3, 2023 by moonslav59

[Old Red]

Don't accept reality, if you choose.

 

The 2023 season is in the past, to me. It sucked, badly. I accept we sucked, because it happened. Obviously changes were made based on that acceptability falling below a certain level. Congrats! You got what you wanted.

 

How did I get what I wanted? Are the Red Sox still playing?

[moonslav59]

How did I get what I wanted? Are the Red Sox still playing?

 

You wanted Bloom gone, even if we won.

 

At least losing got you something you wanted.

 

I'll take a page from your book and start by saying, "LIKE I'VE SAID FOR MONTHS," be careful what you wish for.

 

[Old Red]

You wanted Bloom gone, even if we won.

 

At least losing got you something you wanted.

 

I'll take a page from your book and start by saying, "LIKE I'VE SAID FOR MONTHS," be careful what you wish for.

 

 

And I’ll say the same thing I said last time you said that. The Red Sox did not win in 1967 , 1975, 1978, or 1986, because JH wasn’t the owner.

[Tedballgame]

Free agent pitching sucks.

 

Who was the last free agent starting pitcher the Sox signed that worked out?

 

Babe Ruth