A Realistic View at 2021: Part II

[Nick]

Arroyo has been healthy and still those guys play way more. Also, Duran can share AB with Kike and Arroyo in the worst case scenario.

 

i.e. you will have a “luxury” depth on the bench and more competitiveness by definition with Duran there. Kike and Arroyo won’t relax and Santana/Gonzalez could level up their game.

 

Said that, don’t get me wrong, I trust in Bloom and Cora but it doesn’t mean I disagree at times on how they manage things like the leadoff issue and the keeping Santana/Gonzalez and not calling up Duran.

 

Not sure how this could be a wrong move in any way.

 

I don't get these posters....it's about making the 26 man roster as good as it can be.....we have chance to get into the playoffs WITHOUT sacrificing ANY farmhand. We can go ALL IN without making one single trade.

 

Kike can always play the position he was acquired to play....second base. It's only because Cordero failed has Kike ended up as a centerfielder.

 

No one on this board has any problems with Cora rotating players, playing Marwin great deal of time and Santana some.

 

To say that there are no at bats available is disingenuous.

 

We'll have Arroyo back to provide depth and plenty of bats at 2B and shortstop.

 

We can rest our outfielders by playing Kike in CF and Arroyo at 2B.

 

There's absolutely NO RISK. If he's hurting the team, send him down. See how easy that works?

 

If you ask the Rays, Yankees and Blue Jays, their GM's would tell you yep, keep him in AAA. I bet no one would say bring him up thinking he'd hurt the Sox. Only the fans on this board.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Nick

[Nick]

Scranton/Wilkes-Barre RailRiders (NYY) 9, Worcester Red Sox 7

 

Jarren Duran headlined this one, belting his 14th and 15th home runs of the season. He showed off his all-fields power yet again, as the first one went to right field and the second to left field.

 

He now has 15 HR's in 156 AB. .988 OPS.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Nick

[Bellhorn04]

I don't get these posters....it's about making the 26 man roster as good as it can be.....we have chance to get into the playoffs WITHOUT sacrificing ANY farmhand. We can go ALL IN without making one single trade.

 

Kike can always play the position he was acquired to do....second base. It's only because Cordero failed has Kike ended up as a centerfielder.

 

Kike has much better defensive numbers as a CFer than at 2B. moon was all over this at the start of the season. Kike is a very good defensive CFer.

 

I don't think there's any basis for saying "he was acquired to play 2B".

[notin]

I don't get these posters....it's about making the 26 man roster as good as it can be.....we have chance to get into the playoffs WITHOUT sacrificing ANY farmhand. We can go ALL IN without making one single trade.

 

Kike can always play the position he was acquired to play....second base. It's only because Cordero failed has Kike ended up as a centerfielder.

 

No one on this board has any problems with Cora rotating players, playing Marwin great deal of time and Santana some.

 

To say that there are no at bats available is disingenuous.

 

We'll have Arroyo back to provide depth and plenty of bats at 2B and shortstop.

 

We can rest our outfielders by playing Kike in CF and Arroyo at 2B.

 

There's absolutely NO RISK. If he's hurting the team, send him down. See how easy that works?

 

If you ask the Rays, Yankees and Blue Jays, their GM's would tell you yep, keep him in AAA. I bet no one would say bring him up thinking he'd hurt the Sox. Only the fans on this board.

 

 

Not sure why you’re taking this so personal.

 

Duran’s promotion isn’t determined by a forum poll and isn’t subject to message board approval. Whether we agree or not, ONE GUY makes that call. And right now, that guy is saying to wait a bit longer.

 

Also, are most people saying “don’t bring up Duran”? It seems like some are saying “maybe this is why they haven’t brought up Duran.” There’s a big difference.

 

I have no clue why they haven’t brought him up. I’ve had my share of reservations about him, but I’ve seen plenty of lesser players get promoted.

 

Relax. He’s not likely to play in Worcester all season. Of course, he’s also not likely to be the panacea many think right off the bat, either…

[Hugh2]

Kike has much better defensive numbers as a CFer than at 2B. moon was all over this at the start of the season. Kike is a very good defensive CFer.

 

I don't think there's any basis for saying "he was acquired to play 2B".

 

Kike has never really been a starter, he's a super-utility guy. Some utility guys get more reps and are more valuable than others, Kike is that guy. On this team, with so many black holes coupled with Coras love for rotating peoples days off Kike effectively becomes a starter.

[Bellhorn04]

Kike has never really been a starter, he's a super-utility guy. Some utility guys get more reps and are more valuable than others, Kike is that guy. On this team, with so many black holes coupled with Coras love for rotating peoples days off Kike effectively becomes a starter.

 

462 PA's in 2018 and 460 in 2019 for the Dodgers. Isn't that a little above the threshold for a utility player?

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Not sure why you’re taking this so personal.

 

Duran’s promotion isn’t determined by a forum poll and isn’t subject to message board approval. Whether we agree or not, ONE GUY makes that call. And right now, that guy is saying to wait a bit longer.

 

Also, are most people saying “don’t bring up Duran”? It seems like some are saying “maybe this is why they haven’t brought up Duran.” There’s a big difference.

 

I have no clue why they haven’t brought him up. I’ve had my share of reservations about him, but I’ve seen plenty of lesser players get promoted.

 

Relax. He’s not likely to play in Worcester all season. Of course, he’s also not likely to be the panacea many think right off the bat, either…

 

It could be something just as simple as this: these Red Sox -- at the virtual halfway mark of the season -- are in first place with the best record in the American League... using Bloom and Cora's guys. Right now they may not see the need for a new full-timer bumping a veteran to the bench.

 

I don't even see Duran getting called up if there's an injury to say, a guy like Santana; Duran is not like Connor Wong...because we all can agree that Duran needs to be playing every day this season -- somewhere.

[mvp 78]

Scranton/Wilkes-Barre RailRiders (NYY) 9, Worcester Red Sox 7

 

Jarren Duran headlined this one, belting his 14th and 15th home runs of the season. He showed off his all-fields power yet again, as the first one went to right field and the second to left field.

 

He now has 15 HR's in 156 AB. .988 OPS.

 

Home OPS 1.196

Away OPS .775

 

Nice that New England now has their own version of Coors Field.

[Nick]

Not sure why you’re taking this so personal.

 

Duran’s promotion isn’t determined by a forum poll and isn’t subject to message board approval. Whether we agree or not, ONE GUY makes that call. And right now, that guy is saying to wait a bit longer.

 

Also, are most people saying “don’t bring up Duran”? It seems like some are saying “maybe this is why they haven’t brought up Duran.” There’s a big difference.

 

I have no clue why they haven’t brought him up. I’ve had my share of reservations about him, but I’ve seen plenty of lesser players get promoted.

 

Relax. He’s not likely to play in Worcester all season. Of course, he’s also not likely to be the panacea many think right off the bat, either…

 

I'm not taking it personally.

 

This team is doing great but couple of spots can get better.

 

As an example, as good as bullpen has been, it can be extended with addition of Houck. I don't think the management is ready to give up a spot in starting rotation except to returning Sale. Houck would be temporary solution unless Richards or some other starter falls off the cliff.

 

My only point about Duran is I think he can help, not as every day player necessarily. He's carrying a hot bat albeit its in AAA. He doesn't have to play CF you know. He can always play left field. He gives us another left handed bat not named Marwin and Santana.

 

He costs us NOTHING. Sox retain 6 more years of team control on Duran.

 

Not personal....what's the trigger point? Wait another 60 days so he can start to fail in AAA and say I told you so he's not ready?

[Bellhorn04]

It could be something just as simple as this: these Red Sox -- at the virtual halfway mark of the season -- are in first place with the best record in the American League... using Bloom and Cora's guys. Right now they may not see the need for a new full-timer bumping a veteran to the bench.

 

Right. It's just not the time.

 

If they call up Duran right now and he gets off to a rough start, it would not be good for the team or for him. In no time you'd have the stories "Did the Red Sox make a big mistake...?"

[Bellhorn04]

Home OPS 1.196

Away OPS .775

 

Nice that New England now has their own version of Coors Field.

 

That's a huge problem with assessing Duran's numbers.

 

An OPS of .775 outside WOO does not portend all that well for raking at the ML level.

[mvp 78]

That's a huge problem with assessing Duran's numbers.

 

An OPS of .775 outside WOO does not portend all that well for raking at the ML level.

 

Home: 6 2b, 10 HR, 411 OBP

Away: 1 2b, 5 HR, 333 OBP

 

He's consistent May vs June and Left vs Right, but that Home vs Road split is eye popping. You know that Bloom sees this too. I'd be pissed if I was him. It really screws up player development if you have a park like that.

[Maxbialystock]

I don't get these posters....it's about making the 26 man roster as good as it can be.....we have chance to get into the playoffs WITHOUT sacrificing ANY farmhand. We can go ALL IN without making one single trade.

 

Kike can always play the position he was acquired to play....second base. It's only because Cordero failed has Kike ended up as a centerfielder.

 

No one on this board has any problems with Cora rotating players, playing Marwin great deal of time and Santana some.

 

To say that there are no at bats available is disingenuous.

 

We'll have Arroyo back to provide depth and plenty of bats at 2B and shortstop.

 

We can rest our outfielders by playing Kike in CF and Arroyo at 2B.

 

There's absolutely NO RISK. If he's hurting the team, send him down. See how easy that works?

 

If you ask the Rays, Yankees and Blue Jays, their GM's would tell you yep, keep him in AAA. I bet no one would say bring him up thinking he'd hurt the Sox. Only the fans on this board.

 

Let's assume everyone else agrees with every point you have raised, but especially the desirability of getting both Arroyo and Duran onto the big club.

 

Given that, wouldn't it be worthwhile to explore why Bloom and Cora, who have been monumentally successful retooling this team this season, have chosen not to do so?

 

I am very possibly the least expert contributor to talksox, but even I can identify a couple.

 

One is that these Sox are on a five game winning streak and have the highest winning percentage in the AL and 2d highest in MLB. Don't mess with success.

 

And they are doing this despite some issues with the rotation, which neither Duran nor Arroyo can fix.

 

I also don't see other one improving the sometimes spotty defense significantly.

 

That leaves hitting, and right now the Sox the Sox are 2d in MLB in scoring and 3d in OPS. That said, I too would probably rather see Duran or Arroyo in the batting order than, say, Santana or Gonzalez or even Chavis. And my guess is that Arroyo is a good bet to return when he is healthy and ready.

 

As for Duran, however, I kind of like the outfield of Verdugo, Hernandez, and Renfroe, whose WAR's, in order, are 1.6, 1.4, and 1.5. In a very small sample of 3 games, Hernandez just might have solved the leadoff problem--he's 6 for 12 with a walk.

 

None of the above is intended to say Arroyo and Duran should not get to Boston this season, but only that waiting a while longer doesn't look very risky.

 

I leave to others the larger considerations of salaries and other GM-related issues.

[mvp 78]

How about another LHB slugger:

 

Ockimey Home 1.063

Ockimey Away .441

[mvp 78]

Jeter Downs:

 

Home .929

Away .557

[Bellhorn04]

Let's assume everyone else agrees with every point you have raised, but especially the desirability of getting both Arroyo and Duran onto the big club.

 

Given that, wouldn't it be worthwhile to explore why Bloom and Cora, who have been monumentally successful retooling this team this season, have chosen not to do so?

 

I am very possibly the least expert contributor to talksox, but even I can identify a couple.

 

One is that these Sox are on a five game winning streak and have the highest winning percentage in the AL and 2d highest in MLB. Don't mess with success.

 

And they are doing this despite some issues with the rotation, which neither Duran nor Arroyo can fix.

 

I also don't see other one improving the sometimes spotty defense significantly.

 

That leaves hitting, and right now the Sox the Sox are 2d in MLB in scoring and 3d in OPS. That said, I too would probably rather see Duran or Arroyo in the batting order than, say, Santana or Gonzalez or even Chavis. And my guess is that Arroyo is a good bet to return when he is healthy and ready.

 

As for Duran, however, I kind of like the outfield of Verdugo, Hernandez, and Renfroe, whose WAR's, in order, are 1.6, 1.4, and 1.5. In a very small sample of 3 games, Hernandez just might have solved the leadoff problem--he's 6 for 12 with a walk.

 

None of the above is intended to say Arroyo and Duran should not get to Boston this season, but only that waiting a while longer doesn't look very risky.

 

I leave to others the larger considerations of salaries and other GM-related issues.

 

Arroyo is on the IL right now, otherwise he would be at 2B.

 

If Arroyo is 100% healthy, there's no full-time spot for Duran.

 

If Arroyo is not healthy, boom, there's your opening for Duran (as Kike would play mostly 2B).

[notin]

Right. It's just not the time.

 

If they call up Duran right now and he gets off to a rough start, it would not be good for the team or for him. In no time you'd have the stories "Did the Red Sox make a big mistake...?"

 

 

A lot of more or as highly touted rookies, including Luis Campusano (.272), Jarren Kelenic (.378), Christian Pache (.358), Taylor Trammell (.643), Wander Franco (.598), Andy Vaughn (.700), and Alex Kirilloff (.738) have not exactly hit the ground running. It doesn't mean Duran will struggle, but it certainly means there is a chance he will...

[notin]

It could be something just as simple as this: these Red Sox -- at the virtual halfway mark of the season -- are in first place with the best record in the American League... using Bloom and Cora's guys. Right now they may not see the need for a new full-timer bumping a veteran to the bench.

 

I don't even see Duran getting called up if there's an injury to say, a guy like Santana; Duran is not like Connor Wong...because we all can agree that Duran needs to be playing every day this season -- somewhere.

 

Maybe Duran has surpassed Franchy Cordero in the promotion pecking order. Maybe. But even then, Cordero is the one on the 40 man roster...

[notin]

I'm not taking it personally.

 

This team is doing great but couple of spots can get better.

 

As an example, as good as bullpen has been, it can be extended with addition of Houck. I don't think the management is ready to give up a spot in starting rotation except to returning Sale. Houck would be temporary solution unless Richards or some other starter falls off the cliff.

 

My only point about Duran is I think he can help, not as every day player necessarily. He's carrying a hot bat albeit its in AAA. He doesn't have to play CF you know. He can always play left field. He gives us another left handed bat not named Marwin and Santana.

 

He costs us NOTHING. Sox retain 6 more years of team control on Duran.

 

Not personal....what's the trigger point? Wait another 60 days so he can start to fail in AAA and say I told you so he's not ready?

 

I don't think he gets called up unless it is to be an everyday player. If they just need a part time sub to improve on Santana, then both Marcus Wilson and (especially) Franchy Cordero are more likely...

[Maxbialystock]

Arroyo is on the IL right now, otherwise he would be at 2B.

 

If Arroyo is 100% healthy, there's no full-time spot for Duran.

 

If Arroyo is not healthy, boom, there's your opening for Duran (as Kike would play mostly 2B).

 

Fine.

[mvp 78]

Maybe Duran has surpassed Franchy Cordero in the promotion pecking order. Maybe. But even then, Cordero is the one on the 40 man roster...

 

Cordero Home 1.176 OPS

Cordero Away 1.121 OPS

[mvp 78]

@SoxNotes

Boston’s 9 active relievers have a combined 2.91 ERA for the Red Sox this season. Eight of them have an ERA of 3.04 or lower:

 

Whitlock – 1.42

Workman – 2.00

Sawamura – 2.56

Barnes – 2.65

Rios – 2.70

Ottavino – 2.73

Hernandez – 2.84

Taylor – 3.04

[iortiz]

If Duran is going to share AB’s, he should stay in WOO.

 

If he splashes he will play everyday.

[iortiz]

I don't get these posters....it's about making the 26 man roster as good as it can be.....we have chance to get into the playoffs WITHOUT sacrificing ANY farmhand. We can go ALL IN without making one single trade.

 

Kike can always play the position he was acquired to play....second base. It's only because Cordero failed has Kike ended up as a centerfielder.

 

No one on this board has any problems with Cora rotating players, playing Marwin great deal of time and Santana some.

 

To say that there are no at bats available is disingenuous.

 

We'll have Arroyo back to provide depth and plenty of bats at 2B and shortstop.

 

We can rest our outfielders by playing Kike in CF and Arroyo at 2B.

 

There's absolutely NO RISK. If he's hurting the team, send him down. See how easy that works?

 

If you ask the Rays, Yankees and Blue Jays, their GM's would tell you yep, keep him in AAA. I bet no one would say bring him up thinking he'd hurt the Sox. Only the fans on this board.

 

Exactly!

 

Duran could make this team even better. What's wrong with that?

 

Duran will likely be better than Santana and Marwin. In my book, he will perform better than Kike and probably Arroyo —or at least create more competitiveness.

 

As you said, if he hurts the team he could be sent down again and to keep working. No big deal.

[iortiz]

Scranton/Wilkes-Barre RailRiders (NYY) 9, Worcester Red Sox 7

 

Jarren Duran headlined this one, belting his 14th and 15th home runs of the season. He showed off his all-fields power yet again, as the first one went to right field and the second to left field.

 

He now has 15 HR's in 156 AB. .988 OPS.

Call him up already! lol

[moonslav59]

If Dalbec hadn't started hitting, again, we could have put Kike at 1B, Arroyo at 2B and Duran in CF, assuming they deem him ML ready.

 

Since Dalbec does not his RHPs all that well, and maybe Arroyo needs some extra days off when he returns, maybe they can work out some sort of rotation with these 4 players in those 3 positions.

 

That also leaves Kike available to fill in other positions when they need rest, and Marwin becomes what he always should have been: the highly flexible player you leave on the bench as long as possible, and whose flexibility allows Cora to sub, PH and whatever during the game, knowing he has just about every position covered late in the game. Marwin could also be a late inning defensive replacement.

[iortiz]

Kike has much better defensive numbers as a CFer than at 2B. moon was all over this at the start of the season. Kike is a very good defensive CFer.

 

I don't think there's any basis for saying "he was acquired to play 2B".

 

In all fairness I think he was acquired to play several positions taking in consideration how Bloom built this team.

 

I have nothing against Kike although few weeks a go it was an aberration giving him the leadoff job. He has performed very well in recent games, hopefully it is not only a lucky stretch.

 

Said that, I actually think he could be a phenomenal utility player who can be converted as an everyday player, BUT it has nothing to do with Duran taking Kike's time. If both perform well, both will play, one way or another IMO.

[iortiz]

Not sure why you’re taking this so personal.

 

Duran’s promotion isn’t determined by a forum poll and isn’t subject to message board approval. Whether we agree or not, ONE GUY makes that call. And right now, that guy is saying to wait a bit longer.

 

Also, are most people saying “don’t bring up Duran”? It seems like some are saying “maybe this is why they haven’t brought up Duran.” There’s a big difference.

 

I have no clue why they haven’t brought him up. I’ve had my share of reservations about him, but I’ve seen plenty of lesser players get promoted.

 

Relax. He’s not likely to play in Worcester all season. Of course, he’s also not likely to be the panacea many think right off the bat, either…

No one is disputing that either, nothin.

 

We all are just giving our opinions. That's all.

 

Said that, sure, of course Bloom has a reason and a plan, but considering that our leadoff issue has been a legit problem all season long and Santana/Gonzalez/Kike haven't performed well offensively, some of us have wondered why Bloom do not call Duran and at least try to solve these issues. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

Duran will likely make this team even better offensively regardless his roll. That's the whole point Nick and I are making. No big deal I guess.

[notin]

That's a huge problem with assessing Duran's numbers.

 

An OPS of .775 outside WOO does not portend all that well for raking at the ML level.

 

But if he had a .775 at McCoy Stadium, no one would be talking about him at all…

[iortiz]

Kike has never really been a starter, he's a super-utility guy. Some utility guys get more reps and are more valuable than others, Kike is that guy. On this team, with so many black holes coupled with Coras love for rotating peoples days off Kike effectively becomes a starter.

 

462 PA's in 2018 and 460 in 2019 for the Dodgers. Isn't that a little above the threshold for a utility player?

 

He has been nothing but a utility player who has played a lot in LA because they had tons of injuries & up/downs, and he was the primary piece to address those issues since he can play several positions.