2018 Red Sox cheating scandal

[S5Dewey]

All of his posts now get asterisks. Sorry, that’s the rule.

 

No great change there! Most of his posts got either an asterisk or an eye-roll from me for years.

[mvp 78]

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/the-red-sox-got-slapped-on-the-wrist-for-their-illegal-sign-stealing/

The report stresses that MLB rules did not and still do not prohibit every method of sign stealing, noting that it is permissible both for baserunners to attempt to do so in-game and for teams to utilize video before or after games, all with the goal of providing a competitive advantage. The report notes that from 2014 (when the current instant replay review system was put into place) to ’17, the league rules stated that “no equipment may be used for the purpose of stealing signs or conveying information designed to give a Club an advantage,” but that “many Clubs and their players did not view that prohibition as restricting staff and players in the replay room from attempting to decode signs during a game for use when a runner was on second base.” Various reports from around the league have suggested that other teams operated in that gray area as well; when they broke the news about the Red Sox’s allegations on January 7, The Athletic’s Ken Rosenthal and Evan Drellich reported that the Yankees began using the video room to decode sign sequences as far back as 2015.

 

Hi Jacko!

[oldtimer]

The Sox were guilty of our replaqay booth decoding the signs so that if we got a runner on second he could relay that knowledge to the hitter. Just as I expected and probably not differet than a lot of clubs have done. Manfred made a lot of hoopla over it but the punishment was mild as it should have been. It's Over, get on with it.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Red Sox fans and especially Yankee fans should take the hint from the MLB: this is all in the past, nothing here to see now, forge ahead...

 

The last thing Manfred wants is to have to investigate another team -- especially one in another major market that hired the same named perpetrator immediately before and after he worked for Houston -- for the same types of infractions that everyone in the game knows have been going on all over baseball for at least half a decade.

 

Houston took the fall only because an ex-Astro complained to reporters, who wrote a national story that finally forced the MLB's hand. Ironically, fans on social media used similar video as analytics departments to post proof that Manfred could no longer ignore.

 

Boston won't be tainted, and neither will baseball. The era will just be remembered as a time when technology overlapped with tradition. Don't worry: something new and scandalous will soon emerge, as players, teams and trainers will always look to get an edge...

 

I heard progressive clubs are already scouring parents' basements for mad computer scientists who can override the calls of robot umpires.

[mvp 78]

The Sox were guilty of our replaqay booth decoding the signs so that if we got a runner on second he could relay that knowledge to the hitter. Just as I expected and probably not differet than a lot of clubs have done. Manfred made a lot of hoopla over it but the punishment was mild as it should have been. It's Over, get on with it.

 

He said there were like 10,000 emails for the Boston case.

[notin]

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/the-red-sox-got-slapped-on-the-wrist-for-their-illegal-sign-stealing/

The report stresses that MLB rules did not and still do not prohibit every method of sign stealing, noting that it is permissible both for baserunners to attempt to do so in-game and for teams to utilize video before or after games, all with the goal of providing a competitive advantage. The report notes that from 2014 (when the current instant replay review system was put into place) to ’17, the league rules stated that “no equipment may be used for the purpose of stealing signs or conveying information designed to give a Club an advantage,” but that “many Clubs and their players did not view that prohibition as restricting staff and players in the replay room from attempting to decode signs during a game for use when a runner was on second base.” Various reports from around the league have suggested that other teams operated in that gray area as well; when they broke the news about the Red Sox’s allegations on January 7, The Athletic’s Ken Rosenthal and Evan Drellich reported that the Yankees began using the video room to decode sign sequences as far back as 2015.

 

Hi Jacko!

 

Breaking news that the Yankees were cheating!! Tomorrow’s headline - water is wet!!!

[mvp 78]

Breaking news that the Yankees were cheating!! Tomorrow’s headline - water is wet!!!

 

Jacko said there was no smoke though?!?!?!?!

[Kimmi]

The Astros' players threw Cora and Beltran under the bus because both were no longer working for Houston. The Astros' analytics department created a culture of illegal systems before Cora or Beltran worked for Houston, but the pair and entire club implemented and benefitted from Codebreaker.

 

Nobody in the Houston organization was innocent, but Cora and Beltran were definitely the main fall guys --- which was obvious with the MLB report conveniently calling them masterminds (of banging trash cans). Some readers immediately believed the report because it was official.

 

There are no reports that Cora or Beltran or Hinch or the players didn't break the rules voluntarily, but how feasible is it that any new employee refuses to utilize stratagems distributed to him by his superiors, and still keeps his job?

 

It's hard to know how willingly Cora participated in the cheating. Either way, he initially took a lot more of the blame than he should have. He acknowledges that what he did was wrong, and he has accepted his punishment. He deserves a second chance after serving that punishment.

[Kimmi]

Hadn’t been able to respond due to other craziness, but it’s great to talk baseball again, even if it’s a cheating scandal. Sounds mild, but it’ll always be tainted. Outside of complete vindication, it’ll be tainted. Steroids taints the player. Cheating with pitch sequence relay taints the team. It’s the way it is

 

How exactly did they cheat though? My understanding is that there really wasn't any cheating going on, just a guy doing his job of updating pitch sequences, more or less. Perhaps he was a little too good at his job?

 

I am 100% sure that the Yankees were involved with sign stealing tactics that were worse than this. I can't prove it, of course, but I am 100% sure.

 

Red Sox Vindication

[Kimmi]

All of his posts now get asterisks. Sorry, that’s the rule.

 

LOL Crack me up!

[Kimmi]

The Athletic’s Ken Rosenthal and Evan Drellich reported that the Yankees began using the video room to decode sign sequences as far back as 2015.

 

Hi Jacko!

 

Exactly.

[mvp 78]

LOL Crack me up!

 

I re-read most of this thread yesterday. I'm definitely a "must read".

[Kimmi]

I re-read most of this thread yesterday. I'm definitely a "must read".

 

You are always a must read.

 

Except in the political thread, which is the case with everyone in there. LOL

[Kimmi]

I re-read most of this thread yesterday. I'm definitely a "must read".

 

I realized yesterday that I was not here during most of this thread happening.

[mvp 78]

You are always a must read.

 

Except in the political thread, which is the case with everyone in there. LOL

 

Let's just say, it's given me much more insight into some of the other posters on here.

[Thunder]

Jacko said there was no smoke though?!?!?!?!

 

Um, if there's no proof of an effective drug treatment for this cheating thing, then we can't go around saying that it happened

[a700hitter]

Um, if there's no proof of an effective drug treatment for this cheating thing, then we can't go around saying that it happened

No double blind study!

[notin]

Jacko said there was no smoke though?!?!?!?!

 

He's kidding. There's more smoke than in a Cheech and Chong movie...

[Tedballgame]

And after so many hilariously wrong posts by him on this thread.

 

He is an idiot.

[bkzwhitestrican]

From Mike Axisa, a biased Yankees writer, but I enjoyed it of course:

 

"I wish I was surprised. Earlier this week commissioner Rob Manfred disciplined the Red Sox for their sign-stealing scandal and the punishment is incredibly weak. Here's the report (PDF link) and here's a recap of their punishment:

 

Forfeit 2020 second round pick.

Replay operator J.T. Watkins suspended for 2020 and banned from that job in 2021.

 

That's it. Not even a token $5M slap on the wrist fine. In his report, Manfred made sure to clarify Alex Cora was suspended for 2020 for "his conduct as the bench coach of the Houston Astros in 2017," not for anything he did as Red Sox manager. We're supposed to believe Cora was the ringleader of a massive sign-stealing scandal with the 2017 Astros -- Manfred's own report identified him as a mastermind -- who then went to the Red Sox and was not involved in their extremely similar* sign-stealing scandal the very next season. It was just one giant coincidence and he was an innocent bystander? Come on now. Manfred also said he is "mindful that because the 2020 First-Year Player Draft may be as few as five rounds, (forfeiting the pick) may have a more significant impact on the Red Sox than in a normal year," which I guess is true, but it's still weak. The Yankees were punished more for signing Gerrit Cole (forfeited second and fifth round picks) than the Red Sox were punished for cheating after they told MLB they would stop cheating the last time they got caught cheating (forfeited second round pick). Remember when the Red Sox got busted for the Apple Watch scandal in 2017? When Manfred announced their fine, he said he received "absolute assurances from the Red Sox that there will be no future violations of this type." They did it the next season! The very next season. This is the timeline:

 

The Red Sox got caught cheating in 2017.

The Red Sox told Manfred they would not cheat again in the future.

The Red Sox cheated again in 2018.

 

The Red Sox are a repeat offender -- serial cheaters across multiple seasons and brazen enough to do it again even after they told the commissioner they would stop -- and that's the punishment? Seriously? Manfred put it all on Watkins, a relatively low level staffer, and said "unlike the Astros’ 2017 conduct, in which players communicated to the batter in real time the precise type of pitch about to be thrown, Watkins’s conduct, by its very nature, was far more limited in scope and impact." Manfred tried to downplay the scandal by saying the stolen signs were "only relevant when the Red Sox had a runner on second base (which was 19.7% of plate appearances league-wide in 2018)," or, you know, pretty much the 19.7% most important plate appearances. They stole signs, but it was only in high-leverage situations, so it's not a big deal. That's what we're being told. What the hell man? Between the Red Sox and the Astros, this much has been made clear: cheating is absolutely worth it. The punishment is a slap on the wrist and the potential reward is enormous. I'm not dumb enough to believe the 2017 Astros and 2018 Red Sox won the World Series only because they stole signs, those were two very talented rosters, but the sign-stealing might've put them over the top. The Yankees lost two one-run games in the 2017 ALCS and two one-run games 2018 ALDS. The difference in each series could've been a stolen sign. What garbage. Steal signs. Who cares. If you get caught, you'll lose a draft pick and have to find a new manager, and that's about it. By the commissioner's own admission, two of the last three World Series winners cheated across multiple seasons, all while MLB gets into bed with casinos and legalized gambling. Nothing to see here folks. Baseball's doing great. All the rogue video replay guy's fault.

 

* The Red Sox were found to have used the video room to decode signs during games so the runner at second base could look into the catcher and relay the sign to the hitter. Manfred's report says the Astros did exactly that before graduating to banging garbage cans and whatnot."

Edited April 24, 2020 by bkzwhitestrican

[Bellhorn04]

The 2019 Yankees were obviously cheating, too. Their OPS was about 100 points higher with men on than with the bases empty, no doubt thanks to 'special adviser' Carlos Beltran, the same man who, upon joining the Astros in 2017, after 2.7 seasons with the Yankees, told the Astros they were 'behind the times' with their sign decoding.

 

If Mr. Axisa wants to go with the 'where there's smoke there's fire' speculations, he might want to dig into the NYY as well.

 

That would be multiple offenses by the NYY too, of course.

[oldtimer]

How exactly did they cheat though? My understanding is that there really wasn't any cheating going on, just a guy doing his job of updating pitch sequences, more or less. Perhaps he was a little too good at his job?

 

I am 100% sure that the Yankees were involved with sign stealing tactics that were worse than this. I can't prove it, of course, but I am 100% sure.

 

Red Sox Vindication

 

My understanding is that the rule was set for the 2018 season such that a team could not use the replay room to decode the signs as the game was in progress. You could use prior tapes or after the game was over you could. That is the distinction as i understand it. Since the replay room has to be able to communicate with the dugout for the purpose of questioning umpires calls, the means of communication was set up in advance. A person could just as easily go between the two to communicate as well. Clearly the temptation is there to decode the signs during the game, since the same guy is allowed to do that before and after. My understanding was that a hitter who got to second could then use the information and relay it to the player at the plate. No banging of trash cans and no buzzers worn beneath the uniform. Also, easily defeated by changing signs with a player on second.

 

I'd bet that other clubs have done the same or similar things so a harsh punishment is neither warranted or fair, unless Manfred wants to open the investigation to other teams, such as the Yankees. Probably the rule should be looked at, since it is hard to enforce and not importants, since teams can avoid any harm by just changing signs. I have no information about the Yankees or any other club using similar sign stealing as the Sox used, but it is quite likely that they did.

[Kimmi]

From Mike Axisa, a biased Yankees writer, but I enjoyed it of course:

 

I stopped reading after that.

[Kimmi]

The 2019 Yankees were obviously cheating, too. Their OPS was about 100 points higher with men on than with the bases empty, no doubt thanks to 'special adviser' Carlos Beltran, the same man who, upon joining the Astros in 2017, after 2.7 seasons with the Yankees, told the Astros they were 'behind the times' with their sign decoding.

 

If Mr. Axisa wants to go with the 'where there's smoke there's fire' speculations, he might want to dig into the NYY as well.

 

That would be multiple offenses by the NYY too, of course.

 

!!!

 

As I said before, I bet the Yankees were guiltier than the Sox.

[Kimmi]

My understanding is that the rule was set for the 2018 season such that a team could not use the replay room to decode the signs as the game was in progress. You could use prior tapes or after the game was over you could. That is the distinction as i understand it. Since the replay room has to be able to communicate with the dugout for the purpose of questioning umpires calls, the means of communication was set up in advance. A person could just as easily go between the two to communicate as well. Clearly the temptation is there to decode the signs during the game, since the same guy is allowed to do that before and after. My understanding was that a hitter who got to second could then use the information and relay it to the player at the plate. No banging of trash cans and no buzzers worn beneath the uniform. Also, easily defeated by changing signs with a player on second.

 

I'd bet that other clubs have done the same or similar things so a harsh punishment is neither warranted or fair, unless Manfred wants to open the investigation to other teams, such as the Yankees. Probably the rule should be looked at, since it is hard to enforce and not importants, since teams can avoid any harm by just changing signs. I have no information about the Yankees or any other club using similar sign stealing as the Sox used, but it is quite likely that they did.

 

The consensus around the league is that whatever the Sox were found guilty of is very widespread throughout the league. I understand what the charges are, but I'm still not sure Watkins was guilty of doing anything other than his job. He was able to decode sequences during the game, as opposed to having to wait until the game was over, but supposedly wasn't sharing that information with players during the game.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

The consensus around the league is that whatever the Sox were found guilty of is very widespread throughout the league. I understand what the charges are, but I'm still not sure Watkins was guilty of doing anything other than his job. He was able to decode sequences during the game, as opposed to having to wait until the game was over, but supposedly wasn't sharing that information with players during the game.

 

After reading Manfred's entire report, I thought I found the smoking gun: Watkins, the Sox guy in charge of video sign decoding before and after games, was also in charge of monitoring in-game video (ya, contradictory MLB).

 

Then I read this: "the employee responsible for decoding an opponent’s signs prior to and following the game—also was the person stationed in the replay room during the game to advise the Manager on whether to challenge a play on the field. (It was not uncommon for those two roles to be combined in this manner by Clubs in 2018)."

 

For anyone -- even Yankee fans and scribes still bitter that their codebreakers weren't as good as teams they couldn't beat -- it's now obvious what Manfred is saying between the lines:

 

"Everybody's doing a brand-new dance, now

(Come on baby, do the loco-motion)!"

[Thunder]

From now on, any team to get caught cheating should be forced to relocate to Siberia, and work in gulags on their off day

[Kimmi]

After reading Manfred's entire report, I thought I found the smoking gun: Watkins, the Sox guy in charge of video sign decoding before and after games, was also in charge of monitoring in-game video (ya, contradictory MLB).

 

Then I read this: "the employee responsible for decoding an opponent’s signs prior to and following the game—also was the person stationed in the replay room during the game to advise the Manager on whether to challenge a play on the field. (It was not uncommon for those two roles to be combined in this manner by Clubs in 2018)."

 

For anyone -- even Yankee fans and scribes still bitter that their codebreakers weren't as good as teams they couldn't beat -- it's now obvious what Manfred is saying between the lines:

 

"Everybody's doing a brand-new dance, now

(Come on baby, do the loco-motion)!"

 

Watkins is being punished for being really good at his job.

 

I'm not sure how or why the Sox were investigated to begin with, but really, this whole thing amounted to nothing but a big waste of time and money.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

From now on, any team to get caught cheating should be forced to relocate to Siberia, and work in gulags on their off day

 

Whoa -- I can envision baseball without fans, but not baseball without players, coaches, managers, gms, and analytics departments.

[Station 13]

From Mike Axisa, a biased Yankees writer, but I enjoyed it of course:

 

"I wish I was surprised. Earlier this week commissioner Rob Manfred disciplined the Red Sox for their sign-stealing scandal and the punishment is incredibly weak. Here's the report (PDF link) and here's a recap of their punishment:

 

Forfeit 2020 second round pick.

Replay operator J.T. Watkins suspended for 2020 and banned from that job in 2021.

 

That's it. Not even a token $5M slap on the wrist fine. In his report, Manfred made sure to clarify Alex Cora was suspended for 2020 for "his conduct as the bench coach of the Houston Astros in 2017," not for anything he did as Red Sox manager. We're supposed to believe Cora was the ringleader of a massive sign-stealing scandal with the 2017 Astros -- Manfred's own report identified him as a mastermind -- who then went to the Red Sox and was not involved in their extremely similar* sign-stealing scandal the very next season. It was just one giant coincidence and he was an innocent bystander? Come on now. Manfred also said he is "mindful that because the 2020 First-Year Player Draft may be as few as five rounds, (forfeiting the pick) may have a more significant impact on the Red Sox than in a normal year," which I guess is true, but it's still weak. The Yankees were punished more for signing Gerrit Cole (forfeited second and fifth round picks) than the Red Sox were punished for cheating after they told MLB they would stop cheating the last time they got caught cheating (forfeited second round pick). Remember when the Red Sox got busted for the Apple Watch scandal in 2017? When Manfred announced their fine, he said he received "absolute assurances from the Red Sox that there will be no future violations of this type." They did it the next season! The very next season. This is the timeline:

 

The Red Sox got caught cheating in 2017.

The Red Sox told Manfred they would not cheat again in the future.

The Red Sox cheated again in 2018.

 

The Red Sox are a repeat offender -- serial cheaters across multiple seasons and brazen enough to do it again even after they told the commissioner they would stop -- and that's the punishment? Seriously? Manfred put it all on Watkins, a relatively low level staffer, and said "unlike the Astros’ 2017 conduct, in which players communicated to the batter in real time the precise type of pitch about to be thrown, Watkins’s conduct, by its very nature, was far more limited in scope and impact." Manfred tried to downplay the scandal by saying the stolen signs were "only relevant when the Red Sox had a runner on second base (which was 19.7% of plate appearances league-wide in 2018)," or, you know, pretty much the 19.7% most important plate appearances. They stole signs, but it was only in high-leverage situations, so it's not a big deal. That's what we're being told. What the hell man? Between the Red Sox and the Astros, this much has been made clear: cheating is absolutely worth it. The punishment is a slap on the wrist and the potential reward is enormous. I'm not dumb enough to believe the 2017 Astros and 2018 Red Sox won the World Series only because they stole signs, those were two very talented rosters, but the sign-stealing might've put them over the top. The Yankees lost two one-run games in the 2017 ALCS and two one-run games 2018 ALDS. The difference in each series could've been a stolen sign. What garbage. Steal signs. Who cares. If you get caught, you'll lose a draft pick and have to find a new manager, and that's about it. By the commissioner's own admission, two of the last three World Series winners cheated across multiple seasons, all while MLB gets into bed with casinos and legalized gambling. Nothing to see here folks. Baseball's doing great. All the rogue video replay guy's fault.

 

* The Red Sox were found to have used the video room to decode signs during games so the runner at second base could look into the catcher and relay the sign to the hitter. Manfred's report says the Astros did exactly that before graduating to banging garbage cans and whatnot."

 

Yankees sucks