Clay Buchholz - Is he worth the 2016 option?

[S5Dewey]

just the opposite. they think he has a ton of value to get something back. im guessing they believe with Betts and Benni being CFers as well, can step in and there wouldnt be a huge drop off in production. they may not be as good as him on D but they are still plenty good.

I wouldnt trade him, but thats some of the thinking from others...seriously, who has ever said anything bad about his D?

 

We've got several guys on that team who could get us a lot in return, but the conversation always seems to start with JBJ.

 

Nobody ever says anything BAD about his defense. At the end of the day it's his defense that makes him as valuable as he is. He's hitting about .275 with an OPS just over .800 - good, but not 'unheard of' good.

 

For some reason people seem to think that some other GM will look at that defense and say, "This is exactly what we need" and DD will say, "Naw, we don't need that". It all comes back to what I keep harping on - Defense Is Important. As important as offense.

[Slasher9]

i think it's because in order to trade for a stud SP we know we have to give up at least one of the killer B's. i think most people here would give JBj away before Betts or X-Bo....

[S5Dewey]

If he can be dealt as part of a way to get a Cy Young caliber pitcher - that seems like a fair return. When I suggest trades it is almost never about not liking the guy being dealt.

 

Pitchers are more of a gamble than position players. No GM is going to trade a REAL CY caliber pitcher for an outfielder. CY pitchers are in very short supply, even potential ones.

[User Name]

We've got several guys on that team who could get us a lot in return, but the conversation always seems to start with JBJ.

 

Nobody ever says anything BAD about his defense. At the end of the day it's his defense that makes him as valuable as he is. He's hitting about .275 with an OPS just over .800 - good, but not 'unheard of' good.

 

For some reason people seem to think that some other GM will look at that defense and say, "This is exactly what we need" and DD will say, "Naw, we don't need that". It all comes back to what I keep harping on - Defense Is Important. As important as offense.

 

Dude's OPS'ing .856, good for 11th amongst qualified MLB OF.

[S5Dewey]

Dude's OPS'ing .856, good for 11th amongst qualified MLB OF.

 

Thanks. Just one more reason to not trade him.

[greenwell]

Pitchers are more of a gamble than position players. No GM is going to trade a REAL CY caliber pitcher for an outfielder. CY pitchers are in very short supply, even potential ones.

 

I agree. I don't want him traded. His defense would be undervalued in a trade.

[moonslav59]

Pretty sure all those FA will NOT be here in 2017. thats fine by me.

Pass on Hanny and Im leaning on picking up the Buchholz option as we have zero pitching depth. I do think we can replace Clays depth with a lesser price tag, so im still kinda on the fence right now. Id really like that 13M.

I think Kellys days as a starter are done. hes had his chances. Hes going to be around 3M for his 2nd arb. he has to be in the pen or just let him walk and save 3M. I think he can be a nice piece in the pen once he gets fully acclimated there again. Barnes, Kelly, and Smith are all hard throwers with a good off-speed pitch.

Sandoval has got to be the biggest WC this off-season. Id play him in winter ball if hes ready, to show other teams hes good to go, then Id trade him if I can. maybe add a prospect or take back some salary for a player we can use. realistically, at some point in the near future it looks like Moncada is taking over 3b and Panda will have no home anyway.With Shaw and Holt were ok there until Moncada is 100% ready. Im thinking DD has to be looking at it that way as well.

Rutledge has his 1st arb year 2017 so we need to think if we really want to pay him 1-1.5M or just use guys like Hernandez and Marero. Id think the latter.

Swihart should get reps as a C in AAA to build that value back up a bit. hes still has plenty, but as a C he will have more. all he has to do is be serviceable behind the dish. his calling card is the athleticism and his bat as a SH catcher

we have plenty of catching depth and will probably not bring back a couple guys. im guessing Holaday and Hanny. we would have Swihart and Romanski. Butler is there now but I thin k he was a 1year depth deal. he could resign again too.

there will be PLENTY of movement this winter. I dont see a blockbuster, but more a lot of smaller moves. but this is DD were talking about. He could easily package up guys to get another front line starter. I just think with Price and Porcello at 1 and 1a, a 23yo Erod, Pomeranz in his prime and Wright still in the mix, theres not a glaring need to make a big splash in the rotation. If we keep Buch that rounds out a solid 1-6. hopefully Johnson or Owens can take a step forward and guys like Haley and Elias can help out, but we will need starting depth as always.

as far as the pen, we have our closer and three guys I like to battle for the 7th and 8th in Barnes Kelly and Smith. i think we bring in a bunch of guys and see who sticks for the rest. I dont care to throw $$ at the pen beside a closer. maybe pay a little for an established late innings arm, but we already have a closer so no names like Chapman. those guys want to close.

The pen seems like the place that needs some attention, but when I look at the roster, I dont see any real holes that cant be easily taken care of. a good amount of $$ is coming off the books and DD will be hard at work looking to shed some more of it while making the necessary improvements.

1b - Hanley - Shaw - Travis

2b - Pedey - Holt - Hernandez/Marrero

ss - Bogey - Marrero - Hernandez - Holt

3b - Shaw - Holt - Panda -

OF - Benintendi - JBJ - Betts - Young - Brentz - Castillo

C - Leon - Vaz - Swihart - Romanski

SP - Price - Porcello - Pomeranz - Erod, Wright - Buchholz - Owens - Johnson - Haley - Elias

RP - Kimbrel - Smith - Barnes - Kelly - Ross jr - Hembree - Abad

Guys like Kyle Martin - Robbie Scott - Brandon Workman - Austin Maddox, Noe Ramirez, and Chandler Sheppard will all be looking to secure a possible Bullpen role with Boston as well...

 

Nice post.

 

I still think the pen is where we spend this winter. We may go large and get EE. We may go shorter term and get Beltran to take some pressure off Moncada and Beni.

[moonslav59]

just the opposite. they think he has a ton of value to get something back. im guessing they believe with Betts and Benni being CFers as well, can step in and there wouldnt be a huge drop off in production. they may not be as good as him on D but they are still plenty good.

I wouldnt trade him, but thats some of the thinking from others...seriously, who has ever said anything bad about his D?

 

Agreed. There's a reason GM always ask for JBJ.

 

I'd hate to trade him, but depending on the return, I'll listen.

[moonslav59]

Pitchers are more of a gamble than position players. No GM is going to trade a REAL CY caliber pitcher for an outfielder. CY pitchers are in very short supply, even potential ones.

 

I'm guessing the asking offer might be JBJ, Devers and Kopech. Masybe they'll take JBJ and Swihart or JBJ, Devers, Holt and Owens.

 

I'd try to get the extra year with Quintana. He's just about as good as sale anyways.

[moonslav59]

Thanks. Just one more reason to not trade him.

 

Nobody is saying trade him for lesser value.

 

Other GMs appreciate his defense. Cleveland wanted him last winter before his offense was a better known commodity.

[sk7326]

We've got several guys on that team who could get us a lot in return, but the conversation always seems to start with JBJ.

 

Nobody ever says anything BAD about his defense. At the end of the day it's his defense that makes him as valuable as he is. He's hitting about .275 with an OPS just over .800 - good, but not 'unheard of' good.

 

For some reason people seem to think that some other GM will look at that defense and say, "This is exactly what we need" and DD will say, "Naw, we don't need that". It all comes back to what I keep harping on - Defense Is Important. As important as offense.

 

Because we have a Top 10 player to replace him ...

[moonslav59]

Because we have a Top 10 player to replace him ...

 

But then we downgrade at another OF position, assuming you mean Betts moving back to CF.

[sk7326]

But then we downgrade at another OF position, assuming you mean Betts moving back to CF.

 

And so you have the balance then ... would the dropoff between the two positions be offset by increase in another position (say the rotation) ... I never advocate trading anybody - but you have young controllable talent, and a surplus of it - that's what it's for.

[S5Dewey]

Because we have a potential Top 10 player to replace him ...

 

...and we certainly wouldn't want to collect too many of those potential Top 10 players! As I said elsewhere, we've got 3-4 players now that a team is built around. This team now is dealing from a position of strength - we're not out there hoping to hornswoggle some GM into trading us the next JBJ. We've GOT the next JBJ. In addition to that our rotation is looking solid going into 2017. It makes no sense to me for us to intentionally downgrade ourselves in one position to improve our #3 or #4 pitcher - who's already adequate - because we have another player with potential.

 

As I've said before I'm open to trading ANYONE for a Max Scherzer, but teams who have a Scherzer-like pitcher aren't going to trade him. And I'm very against trading one of our 3-4 young players for a pitcher who has the potential to be Scherzer-like. I've seen too many of them flame out.

[User Name]

If the Guardians would do a Kluber deal centered around Bradley, I'd listen intently.

[moonslav59]

And so you have the balance then ... would the dropoff between the two positions be offset by increase in another position (say the rotation) ... I never advocate trading anybody - but you have young controllable talent, and a surplus of it - that's what it's for.

 

Of course. I'm all ears when it comes to getting an ace like Kluber, Sale or Quintana. I'd also listen on Carrasco & Salazar and maybe S Gray.

[oldtimer]

...and we certainly wouldn't want to collect too many of those potential Top 10 players! As I said elsewhere, we've got 3-4 players now that a team is built around. This team now is dealing from a position of strength - we're not out there hoping to hornswoggle some GM into trading us the next JBJ. We've GOT the next JBJ. In addition to that our rotation is looking solid going into 2017. It makes no sense to me for us to intentionally downgrade ourselves in one position to improve our #3 or #4 pitcher - who's already adequate - because we have another player with potential.

 

As I've said before I'm open to trading ANYONE for a Max Scherzer, but teams who have a Scherzer-like pitcher aren't going to trade him. And I'm very against trading one of our 3-4 young players for a pitcher who has the potential to be Scherzer-like. I've seen too many of them flame out.

 

Very well put. We have the elements of a very good team for years to come. There is little reason to weaken it with a risky move for a slightly better SP and we should be able to get RP help without giving up the keys to the bank. Unlikely anyone will trade a #1 starting pitcher to us for anything short of a key part of the team and the prospect list. Lets hope in the next few years we get over the Craig, Panda and Castillo moves and some of our developmental players like Moncada and Devers realize their potential with the Sox.

[S5Dewey]

If the Guardians would do a Kluber deal centered around Bradley, I'd listen intently.

 

Sure, but the big little word in that post is "if". Just as I'd listen if the Nats wanted to trade Scherzer (WAR = 6.0), I'd listen if the Guardians wanted to get rid of Kluber (WAR = 6.2) for Bradley (WAR = 4.9). But it ain't gonna happen, probably mostly because the receiving team would want even more of our players in return.

 

And remember that .856 OPS? Well, Papi isn't going to be around next year and we're going to need those guys with their OPS >8.0 to pick up the slack.

[User Name]

I'd still do it. Also, I specifically mentioned Kluber because he's a full two years younger than Max Scherzer. If they traded away Bradley or Benintendi for a guy like Kluber, they could sign Encarnacion (.904 OPS, 39 HR) to bolster the offense and employ a similar arrangement in LF to what they are using this year. They could also move Shaw to LF if Moncada runs away with the 3B position. This team has way too much positional depth, to the point where if an opportunity arrives to cement their starting five as one of the best (if not the best) in the league, they should look into it, since there is offense in the FA market.

[moonslav59]

I'd still do it. Also, I specifically mentioned Kluber because he's a full two years younger than Max Scherzer. If they traded away Bradley or Benintendi for a guy like Kluber, they could sign Encarnacion (.904 OPS, 39 HR) to bolster the offense and employ a similar arrangement in LF to what they are using this year. They could also move Shaw to LF if Moncada runs away with the 3B position. This team has way too much positional depth, to the point where if an opportunity arrives to cement their starting five as one of the best (if not the best) in the league, they should look into it, since there is offense in the FA market.

 

Totally agree. Chances to get a guy like Sale or Quintana do not come very often. I'm not sure if Kluber will be available, even if we offered JBJ and Moncada.

[cp176]

I totally agree that we are in a position of strength now with respect to potential trades. You have to listen when people knock on the door but I don't think that we need to actually do the knocking right now. At worst we come back with the same group minus the big boy. A big loss for sure but a free agent signing of Encarnarcion would fill that gap and our young players including Bradley would continue to develop. I'm not saying that this is direction they go in at all but if it happened to be that. I wouldn't mind. I'm not a Bucksnort fan but overall I kind of like our pitching staff. I actually think that our bullpen with Smith coming back (hopefully) will not be as big of a concern as it looked to be much of this season. I realize that I have certain individual players that I might seem overly optimistic about and JBJ is another one. I think that he is just going to get better. If I was someone elses GM, JBJ would be a kingsize target for sure. The franchise is in a great place right now.

[Michfan]

The more big name players move from team to team the more interest i lose in baseball. I'm form the era when teams developed guys in the farm system and moved them up.

this crap of buying teams like the NYY always did is a big turn off.

But if you want to win that's what you have to do

[moonslav59]

I totally agree that we are in a position of strength now with respect to potential trades. You have to listen when people knock on the door but I don't think that we need to actually do the knocking right now. At worst we come back with the same group minus the big boy. A big loss for sure but a free agent signing of Encarnarcion would fill that gap and our young players including Bradley would continue to develop. I'm not saying that this is direction they go in at all but if it happened to be that. I wouldn't mind. I'm not a Bucksnort fan but overall I kind of like our pitching staff. I actually think that our bullpen with Smith coming back (hopefully) will not be as big of a concern as it looked to be much of this season. I realize that I have certain individual players that I might seem overly optimistic about and JBJ is another one. I think that he is just going to get better. If I was someone elses GM, JBJ would be a kingsize target for sure. The franchise is in a great place right now.

 

Smith back, yes, but we're losing Ziegler, Uehara and Taz.

 

Smith is not a sure bet at being 100% Barnes, Hembree and others are bigger question marks.

[mvp 78]

If the Guardians would do a Kluber deal centered around Bradley, I'd listen intently.

 

And why wouldn't you? A streaky bat for an ace? Sure!

[oldtimer]

I totally agree that we are in a position of strength now with respect to potential trades. You have to listen when people knock on the door but I don't think that we need to actually do the knocking right now. At worst we come back with the same group minus the big boy. A big loss for sure but a free agent signing of Encarnarcion would fill that gap and our young players including Bradley would continue to develop. I'm not saying that this is direction they go in at all but if it happened to be that. I wouldn't mind. I'm not a Bucksnort fan but overall I kind of like our pitching staff. I actually think that our bullpen with Smith coming back (hopefully) will not be as big of a concern as it looked to be much of this season. I realize that I have certain individual players that I might seem overly optimistic about and JBJ is another one. I think that he is just going to get better. If I was someone elses GM, JBJ would be a kingsize target for sure. The franchise is in a great place right now.

 

I agree that we are very strong in the area of positional players, with no change needed in either the outfield or catcher. We are excellent at both second and short so the three lineup positions we need to consider are 3rd, 1st and DH. There is no revelation in that and we have Hanley for either 1st or DH or some combination of those two. Shaw is still young and is likely to make at least a modest improvement so he is another 3rd or 1st guy. Moncada may well need extra time in the minors, so I wouldn't expect him to be on the roster early in the season. I am skeptical of Panda making the grade. Swihart is flexible, but he might best learn 1st base as the outfield will be tough to crack. Devers is sitting in the minors with some possibility of advancement. Holt certainly is a strong utility player with great flexibility.

 

I do admit that the addition of a masher at DH would be icing on the cake but hate to offer a large multiyear contract to get that kind of talent. We could stand pat and be excellent.

 

The pitching staff is another story and should be covered separately.

[SoxnCycles]

I do admit that the addition of a masher at DH would be icing on the cake but hate to offer a large multiyear contract to get that kind of talent. We could stand pat and be excellent.

The pitching staff is another story and should be covered separately.

 

The more I think about it, them more I like using the DH spot like some other teams do, as a chance to give a position player a break from the field next year.

It's not like this team is in dire need of another bat.

 

I like Encanacion, but I'm sure I wont like what he's going to ask for.

[moonslav59]

The more I think about it, them more I like using the DH spot like some other teams do, as a chance to give a position player a break from the field next year.

It's not like this team is in dire need of another bat.

 

I like Encanacion, but I'm sure I wont like what he's going to ask for.

 

He's going to want 6-7 years at $26M+. he may end up with 5-6 years at $25M. That's too long for me to agree to.

 

Young can DH vs LHPs, and we have plenty of players who hit righties well:

 

Ram

Shaw

Moncada

(maybe Pablo)

Holt

Hernandez

(maybe Sam Travis)

[SoxnCycles]

He's going to want 6-7 years at $26M+. he may end up with 5-6 years at $25M. That's too long for me to agree to.

 

Young can DH vs LHPs, and we have plenty of players who hit righties well:

 

Ram

Shaw

Moncada

(maybe Pablo)

Holt

Hernandez

(maybe Sam Travis)

 

Yup, there's a lot of opportunities to give players a break and tweak pitching match ups.

[Bellhorn04]

And why wouldn't you? A streaky bat for an ace? Sure!

 

'A streaky bat' is rather disrespectful to Bradley, no? He's got a 4.9 bWAR...he's a fairly competent defender.

[mvp 78]

'A streaky bat' is rather disrespectful to Bradley, no? He's got a 4.9 bWAR...he's a fairly competent defender.

 

Is his bat not streaky?