Dombrowski in Cherington Out

[Jasonbay44]

Like Sonny Gray?

I'm a huge Gray fan but would you trade both those guys for him?

[iortiz]

I'm a huge Gray fan but would you trade both those guys for him?

 

Both? I do not think so. It probably could be done straight up for one, especially XB.

[User Name]

In Detroit, DUMBrowski let the owner bend him over and signed long contracts with Fielder, Verlander, Martinez, eyc. What will prevent him from signing future Pandas and Hanleys if the ownership is the same?

 

He was given total baseball-related move autonomy, per his conttract demands. So there's that.

[a700hitter]

Dombrowski has a history with this ownership and they got woodies when he became available. So, good, bad or otherwise we are stuck with him for the rest of this decade. Ben only has himself to blame. Three s*** shows in 4 years. He had to go. Regardless of what they are saying publicly, we were getting a new GM. I don't think he could do worse than 3 last place finishes. The bar is pretty low right now. I just want some competitive meaningful baseball after April.

[RedSoxNC84]

DD first move an easy one, releasing Masterson.

 

Well I'm starting to like him already

[mvp 78]

He was given total baseball-related move autonomy, per his conttract demands. So there's that.

 

Haha, don't believe it.

[User Name]

Haha, don't believe it.

 

I do, to an extent. Mainly because Lucchino is gone, and what the FO was doing with all of their meddling clearly wasn't working. Use the definition of insanity to justify this one.

[sk7326]

Ownership meddling is ALWAYS a risk. That is the nature of working - you do what the man who signs the checks wants. I don't blame Dombrowski for doing what ownership wants in Detroit - Ilitch wanted a title and wanted to deal kids to make sure it happened (well, you can't MAKE SURE you win a title, baseball doesn't work like that). There are only 30 jobs, it's not like you can snap your fingers and make your own startup. Now will ownership priorities be healthy?

[SoxnCycles]

I do, to an extent. Mainly because Lucchino is gone, and what the FO was doing with all of their meddling clearly wasn't working. Use the definition of insanity to justify this one.

 

I agree.

Having Lucchino out of there can only help.

[Yaz Fan Since 67]

I don't think anyone disagrees with that.

 

It's not giving him credit for ANYTHING, that I don't get.

 

My criticism of Ben was a direct response to a poster who said it took Dombrowski 4 years to turn around one of the worst teams in baseball and Ben at least won something. My point was it took Ben no time at all to turn a constant contender, and 2 time champion, into a last place finish 3 out of the 4. I also pointed out that the heart and soul of that championship team was already in place when he took over. Sure he was part of the staff but it was Theo, not Ben, who made the final decision on moves like signing Ortiz. Once Ben had final say the vast majority of his moves were bad moves that has put us in the position we are in today.

 

I just think it's idiotic to trash Dombrowski and to prop up Ben as that poster did.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Yaz Fan Since '67

[sk7326]

My criticism of Ben was a direct response to a poster who said it took Dombrowski 4 years to turn around one of the worst teams in baseball and Ben at least won something. My point was it took Ben no time at all to turn a constant contender, and 2 time champion, into a last place finish 3 out of the 4. I also pointed out that the heart and soul of that championship team was already in place when he took over. Sure he was part of the staff but it was Theo, not Ben, who made the final decision on moves like signing Ortiz. Once Ben had final say the vast majority of his moves were bad moves that has put us in the position we are in today.

 

I just think it's idiotic to trash Dombrowski and to prop up Ben as that poster did.

 

But did Ben have final say? That is the main question which will drive the success of the Dombrowski era.

[jad]

Unfortunately, winning ISN'T everything: if it were, many of us would have stopped following the RS 50 years ago. The formula for the Marlins (acquire high priced players then let them go) won one WS, but the organization doesn't have much to show for it in terms of fan support and interest. And I don't care about seeing the next batch of H. Ramirez's and Panda's come through until he finds a bunch that works. There is now a core of young players who are actually interesting to watch: Bradley, Betts, Boggaerts, Holt ... But if the idea is to trade them for yet another 20mill/year .250 hitter or 4.50 ERA big-name starter, it's not a formula for putting pennies in the seats long-term.

[Yaz Fan Since 67]

But did Ben have final say? That is the main question which will drive the success of the Dombrowski era.

 

That was my understanding, do you know differently? If he didn't then I guess we can stop giving him credit for the moves in '13 right?

[a700hitter]

On balance Ben was a terrible GM. He started at the bottom of the organization and worked his way up. He was an example of the Peter Principle. He was not suited to this last job. He is a standup guy with lots of integrity. I am sure that he will find a position with another club. I don't think anyone will hire him as their GM, but someone will have a job for him. If it is true that they offered to let him stay on as GM, I think it was foolish to have quit. I think things have nowhere to go but up with DD. Plus, he would have had help from Dipoto. He should have stayed for the upswing. If nothing else, it would have helped build a stronger resume.

[Bellhorn04]

Dombrowski seems to have a pretty solid history with trades.

[Yaz Fan Since 67]

On balance Ben was a terrible GM. He started at the bottom of the organization and worked his way up. He was an example of the Peter Principle. He was not suited to this last job. He is a standup guy with lots of integrity. I am sure that he will find a position with another club. I don't think anyone will hire him as their GM, but someone will have a job for him. If it is true that they offered to let him stay on as GM, I think it was foolish to have quit. I think things have nowhere to go but up with DD. Plus, he would have had help from Dipoto. He should have stayed for the upswing. If nothing else, it would have helped build a stronger resume.

 

Bingo. I'm still not sure why some are calling our new GM "Dum". Clearly he will be an improvement, not sure how you can argue that. And who exactly did they expect to get? Theo ain't coming back, Billy B ain't leaving Oakland. So we land a guy who turned one of the worst teams in baseball into long time contenders in only 4 years and that's not good enough? Again what is their plan if they didn't like this hire?

[sk7326]

That was my understanding' date=' do you know differently? If he didn't then I guess we can stop giving him credit for the moves in '13 right? [/quote']

 

Who "knows", and I do think the brain trust got along. But there was an incoherent mishmash of moves at times that seemed to reflect conflicting values, like say what a TV show producer would do vs what a player development lifer would do. 2013 seemed to be more about the latter. Either way, he won't be out of work long.

[a700hitter]

That was my understanding' date=' do you know differently? If he didn't then I guess we can stop giving him credit for the moves in '13 right? [/quote']Good point. And if he was forced into deals with which he disagreed, he should have grown a pair and said so like Cashman did when the Yankees signed Soriano. He stood up to the Steinbrenners and he still has his job. Ben tool accountability, but people are intent on making up excuses for him. It's all pointless. He is history. He probably will regret having resigned if that really was his choice.

Edited August 21, 2015 by a700hitter

[Yaz Fan Since 67]

Unfortunately, winning ISN'T everything: if it were, many of us would have stopped following the RS 50 years ago. The formula for the Marlins (acquire high priced players then let them go) won one WS, but the organization doesn't have much to show for it in terms of fan support and interest. And I don't care about seeing the next batch of H. Ramirez's and Panda's come through until he finds a bunch that works. There is now a core of young players who are actually interesting to watch: Bradley, Betts, Boggaerts, Holt ... But if the idea is to trade them for yet another 20mill/year .250 hitter or 4.50 ERA big-name starter, it's not a formula for putting pennies in the seats long-term.

 

I like 3 of the 4 a lot but even with his improved hitting this year and highlight catches Bradley has a long way to go to prove that he can hit major league pitching.

 

I'll switch out Bradley with Eduardo Rodriguez. Now THAT'S the guy I'm most excited about.

[sk7326]

On balance Ben was a terrible GM. He started at the bottom of the organization and worked his way up. He was an example of the Peter Principle. He was not suited to this last job. He is a standup guy with lots of integrity. I am sure that he will find a position with another club. I don't think anyone will hire him as their GM, but someone will have a job for him. If it is true that they offered to let him stay on as GM, I think it was foolish to have quit. I think things have nowhere to go but up with DD. Plus, he would have had help from Dipoto. He should have stayed for the upswing. If nothing else, it would have helped build a stronger resume.

 

It will be interesting. He has a pristine name in scouting and development, and built a machine on that end here. Great integrity, and very talented guys loved working for him. A place like Philadelphia actually would be a very good fit, where they need modernization in much of what the front office does - while McPhail provides a good complement. Minnesota where Terry Ryan is not getting younger makes sense also. Obviously the Red Sox satellite offices in Chicago and Los Angeles probably already have called.

[sk7326]

Good point. And if he was forced into deals with which he disagreed, he should have grown a pair and said so like Cashman did when the Yankees signed Soriano. He stood up to the Steinbrenners and he still has his job. Ben tool accountability, but people are intent on making up excuses for him. It's all pointless. He is history. He probably will regret having resigned if that really was his choice.

 

Stood up? It's not like he didn't sign them. So he said that publicly and figured it out in private. Clearly he knows how to work with his bosses given having a job for so long there. He knew enough not to boink a cleaning lady and get in trouble with the boss.

[Bellhorn04]

I don't think Cherington will regret getting out of town. He didn't want to be subject to DD's veto. He knows he'll get a job elsewhere. And we're still paying him through at least 2016 I believe.

[Bellhorn04]

Stood up? It's not like he didn't sign them. So he said that publicly and figured it out in private. Clearly he knows how to work with his bosses given having a job for so long there. He knew enough not to boink a cleaning lady and get in trouble with the boss.

 

He did boink a crazy lady though.

[a700hitter]

I like 3 of the 4 a lot but even with his improved hitting this year and highlight catches Bradley has a long way to go to prove that he can hit major league pitching.

 

I'll switch out Bradley and add Eduardo Rodriguez. Now THAT'S the guy I'm most excited about.

I agree that Bradley has a lot to prove. Right now, he is headed in the right direction. He needs to build on that, which is why he needs to play everyday for the rest of th season. Get Hanley out of there and hand him a third baseman's mitt. Send fatso to rehab to deal with his food issues. It took Bradley a very long time to adjust to big league pitching and now he is on a tear. As he continues playing, the pitchers will make adjustments to how they work him, we need to find out how quickly and successfully he can make his adjustments. You have to be able to do that to be a successful major league hitter.

[a700hitter]

It will be interesting. He has a pristine name in scouting and development, and built a machine on that end here. Great integrity, and very talented guys loved working for him. A place like Philadelphia actually would be a very good fit, where they need modernization in much of what the front office does - while McPhail provides a good complement. Minnesota where Terry Ryan is not getting younger makes sense also. Obviously the Red Sox satellite offices in Chicago and Los Angeles probably already have called.

I don't think Theo will hire him. Hoyer is his boy. Why would he upset Hoyer's apple cart by bringing in Ben.

[sk7326]

I don't think Theo will hire him. Hoyer is his boy. Why would he upset Hoyer's apple cart by bringing in Ben.

 

Upset the chemistry by bringing back a guy they both worked with for 9 years, who Hoyer ran a baseball operation with as partners for one of them ... and who won several baseball games under their arrangement (as well as McLeod). I am sure there will be backstabbing there.

[a700hitter]

Upset the chemistry by bringing back a guy they both worked with for 9 years, who Hoyer ran a baseball operation with as partners for one of them ... and who won several baseball games under their arrangement (as well as McLeod). I am sure there will be backstabbing there.

Yep. That is right. After 4 seasons, Theo has a power structure in place. Bringing in Ben at an important position could unsettle things. Why would he do that when his organization is finally on a good track?

[sk7326]

Yep. That is right. After 4 seasons, Theo has a power structure in place. Bringing in Ben at an important position could unsettle things. Why would he do that when his organization is finally on a good track?

 

It is possible in theory I suppose, and certainly there might not be a fit.

 

But in the land of business as I know it - and real jobs and such ... and I do have some personal experience here ... you go to a startup from a larger firm (or whatever), you're always thinking of guys you have worked with who you like. You don't fear upsetting your applecart - just finding a fit that makes everybody happy. In the Cubs case, where Ben is a guy the entire brain trust already knows and likes ... that fit is a lot simpler. They were not able to poach him earlier anyway, because the Red Sox made him GM, and Theo had no visible promotion (let alone the compensation talks that would have been required) to offer.

[a700hitter]

It is possible in theory I suppose, and certainly there might not be a fit.

 

But in the land of business as I know it - and real jobs and such ... and I do have some personal experience here ... you go to a startup from a larger firm (or whatever), you're always thinking of guys you have worked with who you like. You don't fear upsetting your applecart - just finding a fit that makes everybody happy. In the Cubs case, where Ben is a guy the entire brain trust already knows and likes ... that fit is a lot simpler. They were not able to poach him earlier anyway, because the Red Sox made him GM, and Theo had no visible promotion (let alone the compensation talks that would have been required) to offer.

Theo is not in startup mode. He has been there for 4 seasons and has already fully assembled his team. Bringing in Ben would be disruptive at this point, imo.

[mvp 78]

DUMBrowski is going to execute Steven Wright.