Article: The Red Sox Have Bet On Connor Wong; What Improvements Can He Make To Justify That Bet?

[Old Red]

1 hour ago, moonslav59 said:

Just because VTek was a human computer brain, doesn't mean he's the best coach of catchers. He was best at knowing opposing batters, while his blocking, framing and throwing skills took a long time to develop into pluses.

I doubt anyone "gets excited" about a team's catching coaches, but this guy does have pretty good track record on improving catcher defense.

When I mentioned the new guy, it wasn't out of any sure thing expectation, but you did ask, "what new coaches?"

Ok we’ll go with that, which makes the possibilities endless. You can go wrong with Wong, and Have Nav may end up to being the best Red Sox catching tandem since Bob Tillman, and Jim Pagliaroni.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

1 hour ago, mvp 78 said:

I thought it was interested that they hired the Yankees coach and immediately went out and traded for a catcher that the coach worked with. Clearly, that coach much be high on Narvaez and believes he's worth having in the organization. 

When Breslow hired Bailey, I thought this was going to lead to more MLB pitching acquisitions, too. The latter had supposedly worked well with a few starters, like Webb and Manaea in SF; I also expected Brez to recruit a few from Chicago, or even prospects he had his eyes on when he worked in the NL.

Maybe they all proved too expensive for Boston... maybe some of the minor leaguers Brez got knew Bailey... maybe the duo work closely with the analytics dept and just target affordables they figure they can fix.

The Sox can still find gems on Craig's List, as well as on eBay.

[mvp 78]

46 minutes ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

When Breslow hired Bailey, I thought this was going to lead to more MLB pitching acquisitions, too. The latter had supposedly worked well with a few starters, like Webb and Manaea in SF; I also expected Brez to recruit a few from Chicago, or even prospects he had his eyes on when he worked in the NL.

Maybe they all proved too expensive for Boston... maybe some of the minor leaguers Brez got knew Bailey... maybe the duo work closely with the analytics dept and just target affordables they figure they can fix.

The Sox can still find gems on Craig's List, as well as on eBay.

I don't think Logan Webb was available. Manaea was relegated to the bullpen for a lot of the time he was with Bailey in SF. Maybe the two don't see eye to eye? 

[Old Red]

2 hours ago, mvp 78 said:

I thought it was interested that they hired the Yankees coach and immediately went out and traded for a catcher that the coach worked with. Clearly, that coach much be high on Narvaez and believes he's worth having in the organization. 

Seeing that the Red Sox are razor thin at the C position I don’t think this was surprising at all, so to be worth having isn’t that high a bar. I don’t think the Red Sox are pulling off a fast one over the Yankees.🤫

 

[moonslav59]

1 hour ago, mvp 78 said:

His CS% dipped last season due to arm injuries. We'll see if he can get back to his '23 levels this year. 

2023 DRS 4, FRV -3

2024 DRS -14, FRV -10

 

That would help.

He won't get help for framing via robo umps, this year.

[notin]

9 hours ago, Old Red said:

Seeing that the Red Sox are razor thin at the C position I don’t think this was surprising at all, so to be worth having isn’t that high a bar. I don’t think the Red Sox are pulling off a fast one over the Yankees.🤫

 

They gave up ER-C for Narvaez.  Sure he’s not the sexiest pitching prospect, but he’s not worthless either…

[moonslav59]

25 minutes ago, notin said:

They gave up ER-C for Narvaez.  Sure he’s not the sexiest pitching prospect, but he’s not worthless either…

I actually have some hope for Narvaez. He could be the steal of the winter.

Then again, maybe not.

[jdc69]

15 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

Just because VTek was a human computer brain, doesn't mean he's the best coach of catchers. He was best at knowing opposing batters, while his blocking, framing and throwing skills took a long time to develop into pluses.

I doubt anyone "gets excited" about a team's catching coaches, but this guy does have pretty good track record on improving catcher defense.

When I mentioned the new guy, it wasn't out of any sure thing expectation, but you did ask, "what new coaches?"

Working with pitchers is an aspect of catching that doesn't get talked about much, probably because it doesn't have any measurable stat to prove it but it was what VTek was known for. I wonder how Wong measures up in that category. 

[moonslav59]

6 hours ago, jdc69 said:

Working with pitchers is an aspect of catching that doesn't get talked about much, probably because it doesn't have any measurable stat to prove it but it was what VTek was known for. I wonder how Wong measures up in that category. 

Tis is one area of catching I have ranted and raved about for years. The CERA has been widely condemned and misused for years, as is OPS Against by catcher.

With everything computerized, now, I'm not sure catchers need to be the living encyclopedia VTEK was for years, but I do think it went beyond that with Tek. Pitchers felt comfortable and confident with him catching them, except Wake.

I had hopes Tek would help Wong improve, but I saw zero progress in 2024 on D. Maybe this new guy can work wonders, like he did in NY. Lord knows we need better D from our catchers.

[Old Red]

58 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

Tis is one area of catching I have ranted and raved about for years. The CERA has been widely condemned and misused for years, as is OPS Against by catcher.

With everything computerized, now, I'm not sure catchers need to be the living encyclopedia VTEK was for years, but I do think it went beyond that with Tek. Pitchers felt comfortable and confident with him catching them, except Wake.

I had hopes Tek would help Wong improve, but I saw zero progress in 2024 on D. Maybe this new guy can work wonders, like he did in NY. Lord knows we need better D from our catchers.

Maybe the new guy can work wonders? Hav Nav could be the steal of the Winter? All for a backup, or 3rd string catcher. Big concern on Hav Nav is his inconsistent framing higher in the strike zone, which regressed last year. Definitely not a good sign.

[moonslav59]

Narvaez is still a prospect and A work in progress.

Call them suspects all you like, but sometimes suspects turn into productive players.

His ML sample size is too tiny to be pulling framing stats on all 14 high pitches he caught.

[mvp 78]

10 hours ago, notin said:

They gave up ER-C for Narvaez.  Sure he’s not the sexiest pitching prospect, but he’s not worthless either…

'24 was his 3rd year in Salem. He's a guy with an unimpressive fastball and nothing jumps off the page at you except for his high BB rate. 

[mvp 78]

5 minutes ago, Old Red said:

Maybe the new guy can work wonders? Hav Nav could be the steal of the Winter? All for a backup, or 3rd string catcher. Big concern on Hav Nav is his inconsistent framing higher in the strike zone, which regressed last year. Definitely not a good sign.

That's your worry? I think you're going to need to extrapolate on this as to why "it's not a good sign." 

[Old Red]

1 minute ago, moonslav59 said:

Narvaez is still a prospect and A work in progress.

Call them suspects all you like, but sometimes suspects turn into productive players.

His ML sample size is too tiny to be pulling framing stats on all 14 high pitches he caught.

The scouting report is just not from his MLB tiny sample size. 

[Old Red]

10 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

That's your worry? I think you're going to need to extrapolate on this as to why "it's not a good sign." 

If a catcher regresses on anything on D is that a good sign.🤭

[drewski6]

22 hours ago, mvp 78 said:

His CS% dipped last season due to arm injuries. We'll see if he can get back to his '23 levels this year. 

2023 DRS 4, FRV -3

2024 DRS -14, FRV -10

 

Are these stats all encompassing?  As in, do they take blocking , framing, tagging, and arm all into account?

[drewski6]

20 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

That would help.

He won't get help for framing via robo umps, this year.

Tertiary

[drewski6]

If hes hitting .280 and throwing guys out like he did in 2023, I just dont think its possible that hes a problem. Certainly not enough of a problem to warrant taking his bat out of the lineup and replacing him with an all D noodle bat. Or to warrant further depletion from the farm.  

Personally, I think hes close to average , like almost every other starting catcher in the league. 

If the arm doesnt improve and he remains at -14 DRS (TY, MVP for the stat) thats different, but if he gets to where he was in 2023, I think its good enough considering hes above average hitting (for a catcher) and gunning guys down, and the fact that a lot of the stuff that catchers use to be responsible for is now called from the dugout.

Stuff changes.  And what you look for in a catcher has changed vs a few years ago

[moonslav59]

22 hours ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

When Breslow hired Bailey, I thought this was going to lead to more MLB pitching acquisitions, too. The latter had supposedly worked well with a few starters, like Webb and Manaea in SF; I also expected Brez to recruit a few from Chicago, or even prospects he had his eyes on when he worked in the NL.

Maybe they all proved too expensive for Boston... maybe some of the minor leaguers Brez got knew Bailey... maybe the duo work closely with the analytics dept and just target affordables they figure they can fix.

The Sox can still find gems on Craig's List, as well as on eBay.

Craig's List:

Crochet

Buehler

Sandoval

Giolito

Criswell

Fulmer, Fitts & Priester

Slaten

Chapman

Hendriks

Wilson

Sandlin

Weissert, I Campbell, Judice & J Moran (and others)

D Reyes, S Delzine, Tolle, Neely, Cason, Clarke, Aita & others

Ummm...

Paxton, L Garcia, L Sims, Booser

Joely, Anderson, Horn, Uwasawa, Wingenter, Y Ram, Jacques

That's a long list for 15 months on the job.

[moonslav59]

26 minutes ago, Old Red said:

The scouting report is just not from his MLB tiny sample size. 

So everything good written about a prospect is suspect, but bad things are written in stone.

He's just a kid.

Overall, the report I think you got this from says he has good framing skill, but you take the one bad thing out of the report...

Field: Strong defensive profile. Fluid actions; good receiving and framing skills. Better framing at the bottom of the zone, but inconsistent at the top and regressed some in 2024 compared to prior seasons. Potential above-average defender.

[Old Red]

2 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

So everything good written about a prospect is suspect, but bad things are written in stone.

He's just a kid.

Overall, the report I think you got this from says he has good framing skill, but you take the one bad thing out of the report...

Field: Strong defensive profile. Fluid actions; good receiving and framing skills. Better framing at the bottom of the zone, but inconsistent at the top and regressed some in 2024 compared to prior seasons. Potential above-average defender.

The steal of the winter on a backup/3rd string catcher! I can hardly wait until the season starts, and this guy is unleashed on MLB.🤫

[moonslav59]

22 minutes ago, Old Red said:

The steal of the winter on a backup/3rd string catcher! I can hardly wait until the season starts, and this guy is unleashed on MLB.🤫

I said he "could be" followed by "and maybe not."

Look up the word "could."

[Hitch]

11 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

I actually have some hope for Narvaez. He could be the steal of the winter.

Then again, maybe not.

Same. I really liked that trade. 

[mvp 78]

1 hour ago, drewski6 said:

Are these stats all encompassing?  As in, do they take blocking , framing, tagging, and arm all into account?

I'm not sure, but his blocking and framing were bad in both years, but worse in '24. He excelled in CS (92nd percentile) in '23, but fell in '24 (58th percentile). His defensive game fell off in all aspects in '24. 

[jad]

On 1/27/2025 at 8:11 AM, Old Red said:

Ok we’ll go with that, which makes the possibilities endless. You can go wrong with Wong, and Have Nav may end up to being the best Red Sox catching tandem since Bob Tillman, and Jim Pagliaroni.

Bob Tillman!  Ah yes.  He was great, as I recall ... until opposing pitchers realized after a year or so he could not hit a curveball.   (If I remember correctly, tragically enough when he could still hit, one of his hr's hit a kid and I think that kid died.  ... Anyone else here remember or can correct me on that?

 

[Old Red]

1 hour ago, moonslav59 said:

I said he "could be" followed by "and maybe not."

Look up the word "could."

Lots of expectations put on this guy to be the steal of the winter. I bet he doesn’t  even know he has a fan club already. All aboard!

[mvp 78]

28 minutes ago, Old Red said:

Lots of expectations put on this guy to be the steal of the winter. I bet he doesn’t  even know he has a fan club already. All aboard!

The only one calling him the steal of the winter is you, bub. Others just think he can stick as a backup catcher which isn't exactly high praise if you look at the state of catching across the game. 

[moonslav59]

1 hour ago, Hitch said:

Same. I really liked that trade. 

We took a stab at finding a plus defensive catcher that may or may not end up hitting well enough to stick. He certainly has a chance to be our "steal" of the winter. It's not like we've made many other deals that look worthy of such hope.

I guess Buehler could win the Cy Young and make $21M look like a steal. I guess Sandoval could return in August and lead us to a ring and win the award of Steal of the Winter. Who else? Wilson? Sabol? Zavala? 

Crochet cost us a lot, but I suppose he could be a strong contender.

[Old Red]

12 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

The only one calling him the steal of the winter is you, bub. Others just think he can stick as a backup catcher which isn't exactly high praise if you look at the state of catching across the game. 

In all seriousness if this new coach can come in, and do something that Tek hasn’t been able to do, which is make Wong a better catcher than great. I think it’s highly unlikely. Outside of his notebooks I think Tek does know a little bit about catching, so anything is possible. As for Hav Nav what other options do the Red Sox have at this point? Can he be the steal of the winter that MOON asked? I Very seriously doubt it, but like I asked there isn’t a whole lot to choose from with what’s on the roster at the moment? Some on here were excited when the Red Sox got McGuire, and Teel was supposed to be the next big thing.

[drewski6]

1 hour ago, moonslav59 said:

We took a stab at finding a plus defensive catcher that may or may not end up hitting well enough to stick. He certainly has a chance to be our "steal" of the winter. It's not like we've made many other deals that look worthy of such hope.

I guess Buehler could win the Cy Young and make $21M look like a steal. I guess Sandoval could return in August and lead us to a ring and win the award of Steal of the Winter. Who else? Wilson? Sabol? Zavala? 

Crochet cost us a lot, but I suppose he could be a strong contender.

Its Crochet.