Chris Sale traded to Braves

[Dipre]

Now I really like Grissom, because what he said will piss off the talksox old guard.

[Maxbialystock]

Iglesias - traded 2013

Moncada - signed 2015, traded 2016

Chavis - wasn't even out of A ball at the end of 2016

 

I'd take the list I put in as I only included guys in AA and above and they are actually close to being ready at the same time and in the organization at the same time. Tzu-Wei Lin wasn't even a realistic prospect until 2017 when Ben was long gone.

 

Good points! Iglesias was brilliant on defense at SS, but in 2013 the Sox had a shot at the postseason (they won the WS) and wanted a pitcher, who turned out to be Jake Peavy. Plus the Sox already had Stephen Drew starting at SS and Xander Bogaerts in the wings. He played 3b in the 2013 postseason, and became the Sox full-time SS in 2014. Iglesias went to Detroit and started at SS in the 2013 ALCS when the Sox beat Detroit, 4 games to 2.

 

Moncada was traded in 2015/16 so the Sox could get Chris Sale.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Now I really like Grissom, because what he said will piss off the talksox old guard.

 

Duran's "F*ck 'em" t-shirt being sold out at 30 bucks a pop pissed off the talksox young guard (my 13 year-old).

[Dipre]

Duran's "F*ck 'em" t-shirt being sold out at 30 bucks a pop pissed off the talksox young guard (my 13 year-old).

 

Duran is a good example of why you don't immediately write off young, well-regarded talent when they initially struggle.

[mvp 78]

Duran is a good example of why you don't immediately write off young, well-regarded talent when they initially struggle.

 

Just trade them for cost controlled starters!

[MADSTORK]

Sale 2018 World Series Champion

Game 5 1 IP 3 K’s

 

End of discussion

[Maxbialystock]

Sale 2018 World Series Champion

Game 5 1 IP 3 K’s

 

End of discussion

 

Good of you to defend Sale, but in game 5 of the 2018 WS Price was the starter.

 

Sale started game 1 of the ALDS and beat the Yankees, pitching 5.1 innings and giving up 2 runs.

[moonslav59]

Indisputable fact:

 

Game 1 WS for Sale

4 IP

5 Hits

3 ER

2 BB and 7 Ks

 

I’m not dissing Sale over one game: just going tit for tat with the class clown.

[moonslav59]

Sale 2018 World Series Champion

Game 5 1 IP 3 K’s

 

End of discussion

 

Facts are facts: Sale in playoffs with Sox:

34 IP

24 ER (6.35 ERA)

1.44 WHIP

[Hugh2]

How many times a day do you guys think Stork talks to himself in the mirror and says “those are the facts and the facts are indisputable”?

[Bellhorn04]

Now I really like Grissom, because what he said will piss off the talksox old guard.

 

Nothing that Grissom says pisses me off.

 

What pisses me off is that we let go of a pitcher that might have helped the 2024 team, and we did very little else to upgrade the rotation, and I think all that is going to end up costing the 2024 team's chances. It's as simple as that.

 

My issue with acquiring Grissom is that it turns out he was no more than an "OK prospect", as mvp put it. Him being only an OK prospect really makes the rationale behind this move questionable.

[Old Red]

Also in the meantime JH is shelling out $35M. I’m sure he’s not laughing all the way to the bank like the Braves are. Wait the Braves don’t have to go to the bank this year to pay Sale. Grissom is irrelevant at this point OFF, and on the field. Edited July 13, 2024 by Old Red

[Bellhorn04]

As it’s turned out Grissom is irrelevant at this point on, and off the field, and Sale is more than relevant. Gio is irrelevant too. Like I’ve said before this whole situation couldn’t have turned out much worse at this point.

 

Some of it can be chalked up to luck.

 

But the failure to do anything about replacing Giolito can only be chalked up to the same penny-pinching approach we've seen since Bloom was hired.

[Old Red]

Some of it can be chalked up to luck.

 

But the failure to do anything about replacing Giolito can only be chalked up to the same penny-pinching approach we've seen since Bloom was hired.

 

Especially after Whit went down. Bad luck it is, and a twist of fate that after a change of scenery Sale is healthy, and Gio, and Grissom is not.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Nothing that Grissom says pisses me off.

 

What pisses me off is that we let go of a pitcher that might have helped the 2024 team, and we did very little else to upgrade the rotation, and I think all that is going to end up costing the 2024 team's chances. It's as simple as that.

 

My issue with acquiring Grissom is that it turns out he was no more than an "OK prospect", as mvp put it. Him being only an OK prospect really makes the rationale behind this move questionable.

 

Braves' GM insisted at the time Grissom was going to be a star. Instead, he's just another meteor in what has become an annual summer shower over Fenway.

 

Sale, Story, Paxton, Mondesi, now Casas, Hendricks, Fullmer -- rooting for the Sox, wishing upon fallen stars and never-ares (I'm not counting Pedroia and his career-ending injury, a tragedy almost at Tony C level).

 

It's not a modern issue, either, because the champion Red Sox outfield of Betts, Bradley and Benintendi averaged 148, 145 and 146 games per year as regulars in the 20Teens. Compare them to the great unit of the Seventies, when Fred Lynn was mocked as Fragile Freddy; in his first five full years as a Red Sox regular, Lynn averaged 141 games, same as Dwight Evans (not including half a season missed with a knee injury). Jim Rice averaged 156, but that includes a couple hundred as DH.

 

So why the current trend? Can't say we get what we pay for, since Sale and Story were made epically rich. Bad luck? Bad planning? Bad mojo for fans of four flags?

[moonslav59]

How many times a day do you guys think Stork talks to himself in the mirror and says “those are the facts and the facts are indisputable”?

 

He has to reassure himself.

 

His insecurities bleed out from his posts.

[moonslav59]

Some of it can be chalked up to luck.

 

But the failure to do anything about replacing Giolito can only be chalked up to the same penny-pinching approach we've seen since Bloom was hired.

 

I totally agree. JH has made the GM job very difficult, right after the Sale & Bogey extensions under DD, basically 2019 to today with no end in sight.

 

[moonslav59]

Braves' GM insisted at the time Grissom was going to be a star. Instead, he's just another meteor in what has become an annual summer shower over Fenway.

 

Sale, Story, Paxton, Mondesi, now Casas, Hendricks, Fullmer -- rooting for the Sox, wishing upon fallen stars and never-ares (I'm not counting Pedroia and his career-ending injury, a tragedy almost at Tony C level).

 

It's not a modern issue, either, because the champion Red Sox outfield of Betts, Bradley and Benintendi averaged 148, 145 and 146 games per year as regulars in the 20Teens. Compare them to the great unit of the Seventies, when Fred Lynn was mocked as Fragile Freddy; in his first five full years as a Red Sox regular, Lynn averaged 141 games, same as Dwight Evans (not including half a season missed with a knee injury). Jim Rice averaged 156, but that includes a couple hundred as DH.

 

So why the current trend? Can't say we get what we pay for, since Sale and Story were made epically rich. Bad luck? Bad planning? Bad mojo for fans of four flags?

 

Maybe if our GMs got a few of their biggest signings right, JH might be more likely to say yes. I’m not defending JH, here. His budget cuts have been horrible to the team and fans, but…

Gio

Kluber

Richards

Kike II

Barnes

Sale

Price

HRam

Pablito

Crawford

 

Help me out here, are the only 2 good contracts over $10M since Crawford, JD and Bogey?

 

The okay ones were maybe Eovaldi, Turner and TBD Devers, right?

 

 

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Maybe if our GMs got a few of their biggest signings right, JH might be more likely to say yes. I’m not defending JH, here. His budget cuts have been horrible to the team and fans, but…

Gio

Kluber

Richards

Kike II

Barnes

Sale

Price

HRam

Pablito

Crawford

 

Help me out here, are the only 2 good contracts over $10M since Crawford, JD and Bogey?

 

The okay ones were maybe Eovaldi, Turner and TBD Devers, right?

 

 

 

Maybe this is a factor -- look at the list, and identify who was actually a star in his prime when the Sox signed him (I'm not counting homegrown extensions, which have always been a staple of stable franchises):

 

Price, Sale, JD... with Nate entering his prime. I'd say a majority of astute fans, media and industry people thought Price and Sale were overpaid, because one wasn't worthy of the largest contract for a pitcher in history, while the other wasn't that durable. The latter was also a risk in signing Eovaldi (as was Story... while Yoshida was unproven).

 

We got what we paid for in JD Martinez.

[moonslav59]

Maybe this is a factor -- look at the list, and identify who was actually a star in his prime when the Sox signed him (I'm not counting homegrown extensions, which have always been a staple of stable franchises):

 

Price, Sale, JD... with Nate entering his prime. I'd say a majority of astute fans, media and industry people thought Price and Sale were overpaid, because one wasn't worthy of the largest contract for a pitcher in history, while the other wasn't that durable. The latter was also a risk in signing Eovaldi (as was Story... while Yoshida was unproven).

 

We got what we paid for in JD Martinez.

 

Sale had a durable history when signed. Nate did not.

[Bellhorn04]

Sale had a durable history when signed. Nate did not.

 

But Sale's recent history when he signed the extension after 2018 was clearly concerning. He pitched 158 innings in 2018 compared to 214 the year before and was on and off the IL, and not really himself in the 2018 postseason.

 

I think you nailed it when you said DD likely expected Sale to only pitch 4 out of the 5 years in the extension, and this was reflected in the pricing.

[notin]

Nothing that Grissom says pisses me off.

 

What pisses me off is that we let go of a pitcher that might have helped the 2024 team, and we did very little else to upgrade the rotation, and I think all that is going to end up costing the 2024 team's chances. It's as simple as that.

 

My issue with acquiring Grissom is that it turns out he was no more than an "OK prospect", as mvp put it. Him being only an OK prospect really makes the rationale behind this move questionable.

 

Not replacing Giolito was just so questionable.

 

Ok it’s one thing to not pony up $25-35mill for Snell or Montgomery. But a lot of experienced MLB pitchers were accepting minor league deals. Why were the Sox not involved?

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

But Sale's recent history when he signed the extension after 2018 was clearly concerning. He pitched 158 innings in 2018 compared to 214 the year before and was on and off the IL, and not really himself in the 2018 postseason.

 

I think you nailed it when you said DD likely expected Sale to only pitch 4 out of the 5 years in the extension, and this was reflected in the pricing.

 

By the '18 postseason, it was obvious Sale and Eovaldi were trending in opposite directions.

 

Anyone who questioned Dombro extending Sale worried about the aches and pains that limited his second half of '18.

 

Anyone who watched Eovaldi pitch six extra innings in Game 3 in LA saw a guy throwing 100 mph with offspeed stuff that led the playoffs in WHIP. Nate still had IL issues, but also was great in '21 (and '23, winning another ring).

[Maxbialystock]

Maybe if our GMs got a few of their biggest signings right, JH might be more likely to say yes. I’m not defending JH, here. His budget cuts have been horrible to the team and fans, but…

Gio

Kluber

Richards

Kike II

Barnes

Sale

Price

HRam

Pablito

Crawford

 

Help me out here, are the only 2 good contracts over $10M since Crawford, JD and Bogey?

 

The okay ones were maybe Eovaldi, Turner and TBD Devers, right?

 

 

 

This is pretty close to what I've been saying (too often).

 

JH has reacted strongly to all the stupid acquisitions, including some (Price and Sale) made by DD.

 

The 2019 Sox roster had most of the terrific players from the 2018 best Sox team ever and the highest payroll in MLB. But, because of the collapse of the pitching--the 2019 Sox were ranked 19th in MLB in team ERA--they didn't make the playoffs.

 

Even worse, if the Sox wanted to stay competitive, they would have to spend a lot more than the highest payroll in MLB. Mookie was a free agent and eager to get major dollars, which the Dodgers were happy to give him. Sale and Price, getting big bucks for being worthless on the mound, needed to be replaced with two more high-price arms. And so on.

 

Enter Chaim Bloom, apparently with restrictions on what he could spend on pitchers. Specifically, no long term big buck contracts which have become almost the norm for the best starters. Inevitably, I think, CB was fired.

 

Enter Breslow with, I believe, similar guidance to that given to CB: no big contracts for starters. Plus I am almost certain the Sox brain trust, probably with input from JH himself, was more than happy to make the Sale deal with the Braves, including paying them $17M this season when Sale has re-emerged as the old Sale. Thus too the $38M for 2 years of Giolito, 1 year of which is already shot.

 

Thus the humungous irony of this 2024 season in which the Sox rotation is the best in a long time. The Sox team ERA if 5th best in MLB over halfway into the season. And their aggregate salaries (for Houck, Crawford, Pivetta, Bello, Criswell, and Winck) are less than the $16M closer Jansen is being paid!!!

 

One more time. Without Sale and without Giolito, the Sox pitching is vastly improved from last year and even better than the 2018 team ERA, 3.75, ranked 8th. That year Price was paid $30M, Porcello $21M, Sale $12M, and Pomeranz $9M.

 

And let's not forget that before the semi-disaster of the 2019 season, JH was more than willing to pay big bucks for all kinds of players, not just pitchers. Remember the disaster of the 2012 season? Sox payroll was 3d highest in MLB.

 

JH is easily the best owner the Sox have ever had, but there can be no question he has relied on his brain trusts over the years. They not only brought 4 WS (after 86 barren seasons), but the best Sox team ever, 2018. I think in 2019 he just got tired of shelling out big bucks for players who failed badly. Don't forget that early on he hired Bill James, the author of sabermetrics and a believer that you don't need a massive payroll to produce a winning team.

[Bellhorn04]

This is pretty close to what I've been saying (too often).

 

JH has reacted strongly to all the stupid acquisitions, including some (Price and Sale) made by DD.

 

The 2019 Sox roster had most of the terrific players from the 2018 best Sox team ever and the highest payroll in MLB. But, because of the collapse of the pitching--the 2019 Sox were ranked 19th in MLB in team ERA--they didn't make the playoffs.

 

I strongly dispute that Price and Sale were "stupid acquisitions". I think they were acquisitions that were absolutely necessary at the time - assuming that the Red Sox were actually interested in things like, you know, winning games, making the playoffs, winning the World Series.

 

Henry obviously believes there is a better way than throwing piles of money at starting pitchers. I understand that, but we have yet to see if the new approach will actually pay off.

[moonslav59]

But Sale's recent history when he signed the extension after 2018 was clearly concerning. He pitched 158 innings in 2018 compared to 214 the year before and was on and off the IL, and not really himself in the 2018 postseason.

 

I think you nailed it when you said DD likely expected Sale to only pitch 4 out of the 5 years in the extension, and this was reflected in the pricing.

 

Yes, but Sale was not considered injury prone. He was a horse until 2018.

 

Nate had a long history of injuries before we traded for him. He then missed significant time after his extension.

 

Both ended up not being great signings, but at the time, we could not afford to lose pitchers.

[Maxbialystock]

I strongly dispute that Price and Sale were "stupid acquisitions". I think they were acquisitions that were absolutely necessary at the time - assuming that the Red Sox were actually interested in things like, you know, winning games, making the playoffs, winning the World Series.

 

Henry obviously believes there is a better way than throwing piles of money at starting pitchers. I understand that, but we have yet to see if the new approach will actually pay off.

 

I'm more than happy that to agree that both Price and Sale helped in 2018, the best season in Sox history. They weren't half bad in 2017 either although they stunk in the postseason. I also agree the Sox were helped by acquisitions before and during the 2013 season, ditto 2004 and 2007. In addition, we can both agree that from 2002 through 2019 JH was happy to pay for one of the top payrolls in MLB. In 2021 the Sox payroll was 5th largest and in 2022 6th largest. In 2024 it's 11th largest.

 

However, you have ignored what I also said. In 2019 the situation confronting JH was that his team had the biggest payroll in MLB and his CBO, Dombrowski, needed a whole lot more money to keep Mookie and to replace both Price and Sale while still paying their huge salaries.

 

Also this in 2024--

 

The Mets are 48-45 with the biggest payroll in MLB.

The Astros are 50-44 with the 3d biggest payroll.

The Brewers are 54-41 with the 21st biggest payroll.

The Orioles are 57-37 with the 25th biggest payroll.

The Guardians are 57-36 with the 27th biggest payroll.

 

The 2019 Sox were knee deep in expensive talent (that won the 2018 WS), but didn't make the postseason. The 2024 rely heavily on what I call "no-names" and have a good shot at making the postseason. Their payroll is 11th, but pricey Story, Sale, and Giolito--$57M worth--are unavailable.

[moonslav59]

Max, you call tge Sale extension stupid, when that was when he was much younger. After he proved how stupid the signing was over the first 4 of the 5 year deal, you called it stupid to trade him.

 

Am I missing something.

[Dipre]

Nothing that Grissom says pisses me off.

 

What pisses me off is that we let go of a pitcher that might have helped the 2024 team, and we did very little else to upgrade the rotation, and I think all that is going to end up costing the 2024 team's chances. It's as simple as that.

 

My issue with acquiring Grissom is that it turns out he was no more than an "OK prospect", as mvp put it. Him being only an OK prospect really makes the rationale behind this move questionable.

 

"might have helped". Cool.

[Bellhorn04]

"might have helped". Cool.

 

Sometimes it's better to be understated.