Bloom fired

[oldtimer]

Nate should have done that more quickly and or quietly.

 

I doubt we make the playoffs, even if he signed, instead of Kluber.

 

On the other hand, Nate performed far better than Kluber, so at least we would have done better.

[moonslav59]

It seems to me that Red Sox management systematically took apart the championship team from 2018 ( Devers and Sale are all that remain )and replaced them with other acquisitions. Some of them worked out okay, but overall the team was not nearly as good. No doubt there is some story behind each of the moves , just as there is with Eovaldi , but we can only speculate. All we know for sure is that , whatever the plan was , it has not worked out very well so far.

 

It took time, but yes, they did an almost total make-over.

 

It started with Kimbrel and Kelly after 2018, with no tangible replacements added. Nunez & Pearce fell off a cliff, and Nate threw just 68 IP in 2019.

After DD's departure, it went into overdrive. The Betts-1/2 Price deal gets all the attention, but we also never replaced Porcello and a few others with anything valuable for 2020. That deadline, we unloaded Moreland, Workman, Hembree, Pillar and others, as Sale and ERod missed the whole, short season.

By 2021, JBJ and some minor pieces were gone, and Sale started just 9 games.

By the end of 2022, Vaz was gone, and of course, the big purge happened, last winter: Nate, JD, Bogey...

 

Looking at the 40 Man Roster and team seniority, yes, only Sale and Devers remain from the 2018 MLB roster.

 

A few others remain from that farm:

Listed by # seniority on 40 Man Roster:

1. Sale

2. Devers

3. Dalbec

6. Houck

7. Mata

10. Duran

11. Crawford

13. Bello

21. Casas

23. Rafaela

24. Walter

25. Murphy

 

Notable Prospects in the system that were here in 2018:

Wikelman

Bonaci, Paulino, Bastardo

 

 

 

[moonslav59]

Had Nate said yes, and we got Abreu, what would be left over?

 

No Yoshida?

No Turner?

No Kluber and Duvall?

 

I wish we had gotten Nate and Eflin, although I doubt we would have made an offer for Eflin, had we signed Nate.

 

Does Nate, Eflin and JT (and nobody else) get us to the playoffs?

 

[Bellhorn04]

Had Nate said yes, and we got Abreu, what would be left over?

 

No Yoshida?

No Turner?

No Kluber and Duvall?

 

I wish we had gotten Nate and Eflin, although I doubt we would have made an offer for Eflin, had we signed Nate.

 

Does Nate, Eflin and JT (and nobody else) get us to the playoffs?

 

 

That's the beauty of our horrific finish - we don't have to trouble ourselves about these things, we made sure it all became irrelevant!

[dgalehouse]

I don't know for sure if any one particular player would have gotten the Sox to the playoffs. What I do know for certain is that the current team has not done it , finishing last for two straight years.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I don't know for sure if any one particular player would have gotten the Sox to the playoffs. What I do know for certain is that the current team has not done it , finishing last for two straight years.

 

Nobody's perfect, so no player is without flaws, but this is a legitimate question: which Red Sox player, at any position, was all-around solid this year? Let's put it this way: the guys who didn't strike out a million times all had problems catching or throwing the baseball -- or vice versa. And even the best pitchers either couldn't stay healthy or couldn't keep the ball in the park...

 

... except maybe Chris Martin.

 

One guy, one place = LAST.

 

Blow. It. Up.

[moonslav59]

Nobody's perfect, so no player is without flaws, but this is a legitimate question: which Red Sox player, at any position, was all-around solid this year? Let's put it this way: the guys who didn't strike out a million times all had problems catching or throwing the baseball -- or vice versa. And even the best pitchers either couldn't stay healthy or couldn't keep the ball in the park...

 

... except maybe Chris Martin.

 

One guy, one place = LAST.

 

Blow. It. Up.

 

Jansen did a very fine job.

Winckowski has to be grouped with solid season players

Devers was very good, but did have one big weak area (defense.) Does that DNQ him?

Dugo was solid, but not spectacular.

 

Not much else.

 

So, if you weren't solid in 2023, you get blown up?

 

I hope you didn't mean clean house, except for Martin.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Jansen did a very fine job.

Winckowski has to be grouped with solid season players

Devers was very good, but did have one big weak area (defense.) Does that DNQ him?

Dugo was solid, but not spectacular.

 

Not much else.

 

So, if you weren't solid in 2023, you get blown up?

 

I hope you didn't mean clean house, except for Martin.

 

Be honest -- even if you're an eternal optimist -- pining once again for the once-in-a-franchise 2013 worst-to-first repeating itself -- "if everything goes right."

 

No one is untouchable, because this team needs so much more than just two top starting pitchers.

 

A blockbuster trade that even changes some of what are perceived as "stable" positions would still be a positive move, if it improved the team's overall line-up and chances. Would any fan really miss Martin, Jansen, Wink or Dugo -- or even Raffy's D -- if some new stars came to Boston and led them to the playoffs?

[notin]

Be honest -- even if you're an eternal optimist -- pining once again for the once-in-a-franchise 2013 worst-to-first repeating itself -- "if everything goes right."

 

No one is untouchable, because this team needs so much more than just two top starting pitchers.

 

A blockbuster trade that even changes some of what are perceived as "stable" positions would still be a positive move, if it improved the team's overall line-up and chances. Would any fan really miss Martin, Jansen, Wink or Dugo -- or even Raffy's D -- if some new stars came to Boston and led them to the playoffs?

 

Ask jad…

[notin]

Be honest -- even if you're an eternal optimist -- pining once again for the once-in-a-franchise 2013 worst-to-first repeating itself -- "if everything goes right."

 

No one is untouchable, because this team needs so much more than just two top starting pitchers.

 

A blockbuster trade that even changes some of what are perceived as "stable" positions would still be a positive move, if it improved the team's overall line-up and chances. Would any fan really miss Martin, Jansen, Wink or Dugo -- or even Raffy's D -- if some new stars came to Boston and led them to the playoffs?

 

If we’re being honest, are you one of those “get rid of everyone and start over from scratch” types?

 

Because

 

1. That’s how this all started, and

2. This is still a 78 win team despite people acting like it’s a 54 win team. The jump from 78 to 90 isn’t all that big…

[moonslav59]

Be honest -- even if you're an eternal optimist -- pining once again for the once-in-a-franchise 2013 worst-to-first repeating itself -- "if everything goes right."

 

No one is untouchable, because this team needs so much more than just two top starting pitchers.

 

A blockbuster trade that even changes some of what are perceived as "stable" positions would still be a positive move, if it improved the team's overall line-up and chances. Would any fan really miss Martin, Jansen, Wink or Dugo -- or even Raffy's D -- if some new stars came to Boston and led them to the playoffs?

 

We haven't won in so long, nobody looks like a winner. The 2013 team didn't either, before they did.

 

I'm not the eternal optimist. I was one of the first to give up in '22. I did not think we were good enough to win in 2013.

 

I don't think we will win in 2024, even if we get 2 aces and bring back Duvall, but I do think we will be close enough to make the playoffs.

 

Every team has weaknesses, and almost every player has one part of his game weak. I would not call Casas at 1B "unstable," because he has a long way to go to be an average or plus fielder. Same with Devers at 3B. I'm fine with Dugo in RF. Our pen can be one of the best in MLB, if we stop raiding it for starters.

 

I'm not a believer in the playoffs being a crapshoot, although this season is sure looking like one.

 

I guess I'm in the minority, as I was 5 years ago, when a small few of us saw a downturn coming, based on an unsustainable budget, too many starts reaching arbs and free agency at once, and a farm that looked a lot worse than it turned out to be, after so many trades for studs. I expected some very tough years. I did not expect 2019 to be so bad. I did not think it would take us 4 years to build a decent foundation, like I think we have now. Not a ring foundation, but a decent one. One better than it looked like in 2020. Much better.

 

You and others may disagree with some of these specifics or the overall view I hold, but here is my take- position by position:

 

Catcher: I think we are near average now, overall. I think Wong will improve on D and McGuire is what he is. I'm not sure about his offense, but he showed some hope, here and there. I think our catchers will improve. (Our long term future looks much brighter with Teel in the fold. Hickey & Brannon have some hopes, too.)

 

1B: Casas looks like a great hitter with an excellent approach. I think his OBP will go way up in '24, and maybe his power numbers, too. His D has a long way to go, but he's still an overall big plus at first. (We may not need guys like Jordan to ever make the bigs.)

 

2B: I'm probably being overly optimistic, here, but between Urias, Reyes and EValdez, I think we can be close to average at 2B. Urias had very nice numbers as recently as 2021 to 2022. EValdez may be a nice hitter, someday.

 

3B: Devers Forevers. All set. (Meidroth may not ever be needed.)

 

SS: Story is a big "what if," but at least we know he can play plus-plus D. Reyes as the back-up looks better than DHam and Kike. (Mayer, Romero, Zanetello & Cespedes might be one of the best 4 farm levels of SSs in MLB.)

 

LF: I actually don't think I'm being optimistic to think a Duran-Refsnyder platoon can hit over .800 in 2024. While their D is not plus, they should be an improvement over Yoshida on D. (Abreu as a back up looks fine, Rosier is starting to be noticed.)

 

CF: This is a huge question mark. Rafaela could be great, especially on D, or a dud. Abreu is also questionable. Duran should not play CF. (Anthony & Bleis are far away.)

 

RF: Dugo is steady on O and D, but not great. He's got one year left. (Castro is far away. Abrey, Anthony or B leis could end up in RF, if CF is covered b y another.)

 

DH: Yoshida is fine as the DH, despite being overpaid, up to now.

 

SP: Clearly, this position is sorely lacking in solid pitchers. I like Bello as a #3. Pivetta is probably as the #5, if 1, 2 and 4 are filled with durable and capable SPers. Do that and the pen is more than fine for 2024. After Jansen & Martin bolt, it may need a big boost.

 

In short, Solid at 1B, 3B & the pen.

Between average and solid at C, SS, LF, RF & DH.

Around average or below, but not horrible: 2B

Horrible: Rotation (or specifically 3 SP'ers.)

 

[moonslav59]

If we’re being honest, are you one of those “get rid of everyone and start over from scratch” types?

 

Because

 

1. That’s how this all started, and

2. This is still a 78 win team despite people acting like it’s a 54 win team. The jump from 78 to 90 isn’t all that big…

 

Hell, this team looked like they might pull out 86-88 wins at various times in July. (Obviously, the were not, but it's not all that hard to imagine 90 wins after adding 2 solid SP'ers and a big RHB (CF or 2B)

[Randy Red Sox]

I don't know for sure if any one particular player would have gotten the Sox to the playoffs. What I do know for certain is that the current team has not done it , finishing last for two straight years.

 

and 3 of the last 4

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

If we’re being honest, are you one of those “get rid of everyone and start over from scratch” types?

 

 

I'm the type who knows better than to count on pitchers rehabbing from major injuries or whose 35-or-over age makes them bigger risks to break down more often -- or, more likely, not to repeat levels of success every season they're closer to 40.

 

The worst non-trade Chaim Bloom made wasn't at the '22 deadline, but this past summer when he didn't deal the best deadline chip of his career -- James Paxton, coming off a Pitcher-of-the-Month award, and bound to land back on the IL.

 

So this winter, a new GM look should absolutely look into getting young talent for Jansen and Martin. No positions or areas fluctuate more than relievers and bullpens, and new ones are constantly being converted with live arms, new pitches and new grips.

[notin]

I'm the type who knows better than to count on pitchers rehabbing from major injuries or whose 35-or-over age makes them bigger risks to break down more often -- or, more likely, not to repeat levels of success every season they're closer to 40.

 

The worst non-trade Chaim Bloom made wasn't at the '22 deadline, but this past summer when he didn't deal the best deadline chip of his career -- James Paxton, coming off a Pitcher-of-the-Month award, and bound to land back on the IL.

 

So this winter, a new GM look should absolutely look into getting young talent for Jansen and Martin. No positions or areas fluctuate more than relievers and bullpens, and new ones are constantly being converted with live arms, new pitches and new grips.

 

I would have been fine with dealing Paxtin (and others?) and at least committing one way out the other. Heck I would have been fine with the dual but/sell approach. Any thing would have been a step up over the second straight thing dealing. All that was missing this year was another press conference about how another player no one wanted “fell in to his lap.”

 

As for trading Martin and Jansen solely for reasons related to age discrimination, I don’t really think it’sa big deal, assuming t to have buyers for their salary (which will be tougher for Jansen than Martin). But don’t get to overcommitted to the logic that relief pitchers are inconsistent, because it’s the wrong way to look at that. I read it in someone’s signature out here once

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I would have been fine with dealing Paxtin (and others?) and at least committing one way out the other. Heck I would have been fine with the dual but/sell approach. Any thing would have been a step up over the second straight thing dealing. All that was missing this year was another press conference about how another player no one wanted “fell in to his lap.”

 

As for trading Martin and Jansen solely for reasons related to age discrimination, I don’t really think it’sa big deal, assuming t to have buyers for their salary (which will be tougher for Jansen than Martin). But don’t get to overcommitted to the logic that relief pitchers are inconsistent, because it’s the wrong way to look at that. I read it in someone’s signature out here once

 

I put them on the block because they were both good this season and expiring (contracts, contracts!) after next.

 

Martin was so good, that his value will never be higher (like unreasonable expectations that he'll repeat his near-perfect level). Guys like that can actually fetch something good in trade for a rebuilding GM...

 

... unlike, say, a lot of other names with baggage being floated on the boards.

[moonslav59]

I would have been fine with dealing Paxtin (and others?) and at least committing one way out the other. Heck I would have been fine with the dual but/sell approach. Any thing would have been a step up over the second straight thing dealing. All that was missing this year was another press conference about how another player no one wanted “fell in to his lap.”

 

As for trading Martin and Jansen solely for reasons related to age discrimination, I don’t really think it’sa big deal, assuming t to have buyers for their salary (which will be tougher for Jansen than Martin). But don’t get to overcommitted to the logic that relief pitchers are inconsistent, because it’s the wrong way to look at that. I read it in someone’s signature out here once

 

One could argue Jansen and Martin are two of the most consistent RP'ers over the last 5-10 years.

 

I'd wait to the deadline to make a choice on trading them, unless the choice is a total teardown and rebuild.

[Bellhorn04]

One could argue Jansen and Martin are two of the most consistent RP'ers over the last 5-10 years.

 

I'd wait to the deadline to make a choice on trading them, unless the choice is a total teardown and rebuild.

 

A teardown and rebuild after the things they've been saying (led by Cora)? Not a chance.

[notin]

I put them on the block because they were both good this season and expiring (contracts, contracts!) after next.

 

Martin was so good, that his value will never be higher (like unreasonable expectations that he'll repeat his near-perfect level). Guys like that can actually fetch something good in trade for a rebuilding GM...

 

... unlike, say, a lot of other names with baggage being floated on the boards.

 

So you think this rebuilding team should treat down and rebuild again?

 

This team won 78 games with a staff where two of the top three in IP were in their first full season. Add some live arms at the top of that rotation.

 

Beyond that opinions are divided as to what else this team needs. Some say the most important thing is to upgrade the defense. Others say a RH power bat tops all. Others also have said this team needs to return to its OBP approach.

 

These three traits need not be mutually exclusive. If the Sox could find a RHH patient high-OBP hitter with power who is capable of playing RF at Fenway, that would be perfect.

 

Luckily have done my research on this and found just such a player. And the good news is he is available this off-season. The bad news is that Dwight Evans is 70 years old…

[mvp 78]

I put them on the block because they were both good this season and expiring (contracts, contracts!) after next.

 

Martin was so good, that his value will never be higher (like unreasonable expectations that he'll repeat his near-perfect level). Guys like that can actually fetch something good in trade for a rebuilding GM...

 

... unlike, say, a lot of other names with baggage being floated on the boards.

 

I agree. If someone isn't here long term, they would have some value on the open market. Sox probably aren't a WS contender even if they are an outside playoff hopeful. May as well deal for a long term contributor.

[mvp 78]

One could argue Jansen and Martin are two of the most consistent RP'ers over the last 5-10 years.

 

I'd wait to the deadline to make a choice on trading them, unless the choice is a total teardown and rebuild.

 

I wouldn't because there is a risk of injury or reduced effectiveness.

[mvp 78]

A teardown and rebuild after the things they've been saying (led by Cora)? Not a chance.

 

I'm not sure trading two relievers is a teardown. I think you can simply replace Jansen with an inhouse guy and get a FA to replace Martin's spot.

[moonslav59]

I wouldn't because there is a risk of injury or reduced effectiveness.

 

So, you want to trade both, this winter?

 

It will be hard to replace their value, at that money, so is this a "punt season" in 2024, to you?

[mvp 78]

So you think this rebuilding team should treat down and rebuild again?

 

This team won 78 games with a staff where two of the top three in IP were in their first full season. Add some live arms at the top of that rotation.

 

Beyond that opinions are divided as to what else this team needs. Some say the most important thing is to upgrade the defense. Others say a RH power bat tops all. Others also have said this team needs to return to its OBP approach.

 

These three traits need not be mutually exclusive. If the Sox could find a RHH patient high-OBP hitter with power who is capable of playing RF at Fenway, that would be perfect.

 

Luckily have done my research on this and found just such a player. And the good news is he is available this off-season. The bad news is that Dwight Evans is 70 years old…

 

Trading two players each on one year deals is not a tear down or a rebuild.

[mvp 78]

So, you want to trade both, this winter?

 

It will be hard to replace their value, at that money, so is this a "punt season" in 2024, to you?

 

I think you can put in Houck as a closer in get similar to Jansen effectiveness. I think you can sign a FA reliever to take Martin's spot and get a lesser arm, but ultimately someone who helps your pen and is better than the other guys you currently have.

[notin]

Trading two players each on one year deals is not a tear down or a rebuild.

 

No but at some point it’s ok to keep them for a few months and see how the team is…

[notin]

I think you can put in Houck as a closer in get similar to Jansen effectiveness. I think you can sign a FA reliever to take Martin's spot and get a lesser arm, but ultimately someone who helps your pen and is better than the other guys you currently have.

 

Then who takes Houck’s spot? The role of closer isn’t as important as having actual good pitchers in the bullpen…

[mvp 78]

No but at some point it’s ok to keep them for a few months and see how the team is…

 

I'm always just first to push the big red button anyway.

[mvp 78]

Then who takes Houck’s spot? The role of closer isn’t as important as having actual good pitchers in the bullpen…

 

Houck's spot in 2023 was in the rotation. Next year, it will be as closer. A FA or trade acquisition will take over for the rotation spot.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Nobody's job is safe. It's not like the Sox are loaded with five-tool stars.

 

Who is even a three-tool tool: Verdugo can catch and throw, mostly hit (despite a season-ending slump)... not much speed or power. Story (catch, run, sometimes hit w power)?

 

We got a lotta dual-tools... or is that duel-tools... eating Square Peg pizza sitting on round stools.