Red Sox: Off Season '23-'24

[Old Red]

And that’s your opinion. Or admission of stubbornness.

 

I’ve changed the occasional viewpoint based on points other posters have made. Multiple times…

Unless it’s an actual fact, or stat everything else is just an opinion on here that ALL are entitled to.

[dgalehouse]

Decades ago, when I covered NHL hockey, an old scribe sitting next to me in the press box insisted the league should keep track of and list won-loss records of goalies. He argued their value was akin to pitchers in baseball... especially in the playoffs.

 

I noted not all goalie wins are the same, especially when some victors save twice as many (or more) shots on goal than others, depending on the support of his defenders and the firepower of opponents' offense.

 

So... I just looked up the NHL record for most saves in a playoff game. Most ever is by Joonas Korpisalo, Columbus Blue Jackets: 85 saves in 2020. Next is Igor Shesterkin, New York Rangers, 2022: 79. Both came in overtime games.

 

Both lost.

 

Nothing would be enough for the stat heads. They would have to break it down to home ice saves, road ice saves, first period saves, overtime saves, easy saves, hard saves and the occasional Marv Albert " Save and a beauty".

[notin]

It is futile to argue with the stat heads. They will ignore the bottom line and try to dissect everything. And that's okay. That is what they enjoy. It's like this: Fan: " Joe Schmenge hit 30 homers ". Stat head: Yeah, but what was his " barrel rate" ? Fan: " I don't know. But I like the 30 homers". Stat head: " Well , George Schmidlap only had 24 homers, but he had a better " barrel rate" , so Schmenge was probably just lucky". Fan: " Okay, Stat. Whatever you say. Enjoy the game".

 

As opposed to the open-mindedness of old schoolers?

[Old Red]

As opposed to the open-mindedness of old schoolers?

 

Not having a need, or care about does not mean someone is not open minded.

[notin]

Not having a need, or care about does not mean someone is not open minded.

 

Actually, it does…

[Old Red]

Actually, it does…

 

NO it doesn’t. I don’t have a problem with someone digesting, or needing any stat they can get their hands on. You can’t say the same thing.

[notin]

NO it doesn’t. I don’t have a problem with someone digesting, or needing any stat they can get their hands on. You can’t say the same thing.

 

I am just as accepting of W-L records for pitchers as you are of OPS…

[dgalehouse]

Actually, it does…

 

The contrarian. Today is Tuesday. Notin: Wrong. In Japan it is Wednesday. Wednesday is not Tuesday.

[Old Red]

I am just as accepting of W-L records for pitchers as you are of OPS…

 

Wrong again. I accept OPS, or any other stat you can come up with. I just don’t use them, because most of all I don’t care about them. It’s shouldn’t really be that hard to understand, and then to accept.

[notin]

The contrarian. Today is Tuesday. Notin: Wrong. In Japan it is Wednesday. Wednesday is not Tuesday.

 

“Arguing with statheads is futile. Why can’t these people just accept everything I say as correct?”

[notin]

Wrong again. I accept OPS, or any other stat you can come up with. I just don’t use them, because most of all I don’t care about them. It’s shouldn’t really be that hard to understand, and then to accept.

 

You’ve called out myself and others for using OPS over stats like RBI…

[Duran Is The Man]

As opposed to the open-mindedness of old schoolers?

 

i prefer the "old-school" stats, maybe because that's what i grew up with. even if they're not truly indicative of a players abilities or lack thereof. with that said, i've always thought the way wins and losses were/are awarded is total ********. maybe it's already been done, but there needs to be a better way to decide who gets the "win".

[Old Red]

You’ve called out myself and others for using OPS over stats like RBI…

 

And what did I say exactly?

[notin]

And what did I say exactly?

 

That you didn’t bare about OPS and thought replacing Renfroe’s RBIs was most important…

[notin]

i prefer the "old-school" stats, maybe because that's what i grew up with. even if they're not truly indicative of a players abilities or lack thereof. with that said, i've always thought the way wins and losses were/are awarded is total ********. maybe it's already been done, but there needs to be a better way to decide who gets the "win".

 

We probably all grew up with them. They were on the backs of our cards.

 

And they have their uses. Get 300 wins? Hit 500 HRs? Drive in 1,500 RBI? That’s all Hall of Fame stuff. That’s history and it belongs in a museum.

 

But for evaluating a player (which admittedly is not my job) I don’t find a lot of them useful. Or at the very least, I find others more useful…

[notin]

Unless it’s an actual fact, or stat everything else is just an opinion on here that ALL are entitled to.

 

Unless that opinion is held by moon and states that the team is playing well or can improve…

[Old Red]

That you didn’t bare about OPS and thought replacing Renfroe’s RBIs was most important…

 

I didn’t bare? I don’t care about OPS, and the Red Sox have still not replaced Renfroe’s 96 RBI in the OF. We’ll see if the Red Sox can replace JT’s RBI this year?

[Old Red]

Unless that opinion is held by moon and states that the team is playing well or can improve…

 

You worry so much about your little moon pie heel tag team partner, but your quick to poh poh, and try to down the Old Schoolers.

[notin]

You worry so much about your little moon pie heel tag team partner, but your quick to poh poh, and try to down the Old Schoolers.

 

Are you crying victim here?

[Old Red]

Are you crying victim here?

 

No! It’s on Que, and so predictable, but try as you must it doesn’t work.

[moonslav59]

Yeah, but some things are just obvious. Like the Phillies giving 172 million to a guy who's 32-31 in his last 3 seasons. That's just a plain old fact.

 

The funny part is, their hero was they guy who signed that loser.

[moonslav59]

I don't care if he goes 10-11, as long as the team wins the majority of his starts. As I said before, Lackey's worst W-L record in Boston was in 2013...

 

Exactly. In theory, he could be 10-11, but the team goes 23-11 in his starts.

 

If wins are what counts most, use wins in starts not stupid W-L records created by someone who thinks they alone knows what determines who deserves the win or loss.

 

The list of the all time best pitchers by wins and or winning % is a very good one.

 

I think the list of greats ranked by ERA, ERA-, WAR or OPS Against shows a better list and a better order. Just my take.

Edited February 28, 2024 by moonslav59

[moonslav59]

Pitchers who pitch for bad teams or bad offensive and defensive teams can never be a great pitcher.

 

How often do you hear people say, pitcher A had a 2.90 career ERA over 18 years, but the stat is so flawed, he really wasn't very good?

[moonslav59]

King Felix was 169-136 career (.554 %)

Take away his best 2 W-L season in '09 and '15, and he was 132-122 in his other 13 seasons. That averages to a 10-9 record. He really sucked, those years.

 

The 3.42 ERA and 117 ERA+ was just a mirage.

 

 

[Old Red]

The funny part is, their hero was they guy who signed that loser.

 

The funny part is that their hero is thought of that way by a majority of RSN, where is your hero the infamous Gloom, and Doom Bloom isn’t. Don’t know what your point was, but it sure wasn’t a good one.🙈🤭🤮

[notin]

King Felix was 169-136 career (.554 %)

Take away his best 2 W-L season in '09 and '15, and he was 132-122 in his other 13 seasons. That averages to a 10-9 record. He really sucked, those years.

 

The 3.42 ERA and 117 ERA+ was just a mirage.

 

 

 

But.. but… but… he’s entitled to his opinion.

 

Of course the Stat Head crowd isn’t treating this like an opinion. We’re providing data that leads to a conclusion…

[Old Red]

But.. but… but… he’s entitled to his opinion.

 

Of course the Stat Head crowd isn’t treating this like an opinion. We’re providing data that leads to a conclusion…

 

Just like your opinion that guarding the 1B, and 3B lines were the same as the shift even though there was facts to back it up that it wasn’t. Now that is providing data to prove it wasn’t, and also to a conclusion.

[dgalehouse]

Baseball school: Teacher: " Johnny, what is the most games Jordan Montgomery has won in a season? " Johnny: " Ten.". Teacher: " Very good. Has Felix Hernandez ever done that ? " Johnny: " Yes, King Felix exceeded that in ten different seasons. " Teacher: " Right. And what did we learn from that? " Johnny: " Don't try to compare Montgomery with Felix Hernandez ? " Teacher: " Correct. Good job, Johnny. " The point is that I did not say that Montgomery was not a good pitcher. He clearly is. I just pointed out that he has never won more than ten games in a season. And that is the reality. The plain truth.

[Old Red]

Baseball school: Teacher: " Johnny, what is the most games Jordan Montgomery has won in a season? " Johnny: " Ten.". Teacher: " Very good. Has Felix Hernandez ever done that ? " Johnny: " Yes, King Felix exceeded that in ten different seasons. " Teacher: " Right. And what did we learn from that? " Johnny: " Don't try to compare Montgomery with Felix Hernandez ? " Teacher: " Correct. Good job, Johnny. " The point is that I did not say that Montgomery was not a good pitcher. He clearly is. I just pointed out that he has never won more than ten games in a season. And that is the reality. The plain truth.

 

👍👍👍. The problem is that people that over analyzes that runs rampant on here goes off in all different directions.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Nothing would be enough for the stat heads. They would have to break it down to home ice saves, road ice saves, first period saves, overtime saves, easy saves, hard saves and the occasional Marv Albert " Save and a beauty".

 

Marv tried blurting, "Screened by the defenseman!"

 

... but it was too much of a mouthful.