Red Sox: Off Season '23-'24

[notin]

Yes, 17-13 and 17-15= 34-28

 

That is a .548 win%.

 

.548 x 162 games = 89 wins out of 162.

 

Is it about winning, or not?

 

Pitcher W-L record has been devalued by the prominence in the bullpen in the game today. Starters rarely go beyond 6 innings anymore, and far too many games are decided beyond that point. Using pitcher wins is almost like evaluating hitters not only solely on batting average, but rather solely on batting average in the first 3 innings...

[moonslav59]

I guess Sox fans would be fine, if we had Logan Webb (26-22 in last 2 years) on our team, and traded him for Chris Bassitt (31-17 in last 2 years.)

 

How about Nola (23-22) for Kyle Gibson (25-17).

[moonslav59]

Pitcher W-L record has been devalued by the prominence in the bullpen in the game today. Starters rarely go beyond 6 innings anymore, and far too many games are decided beyond that point. Using pitcher wins is almost like evaluating hitters not only solely on batting average, but rather solely on batting average in the first 3 innings...

 

The whole wins, losses and saves "stat" is a contrived number that has no basis in reality.

 

At least those who cling to BA and RBIs are looking at actual results by the player, not the team and rules-makers. (One can argue team scorers can taint those numbers, along with park factors and strength of opponents, but at least the numbers are real.

[cp176]

I seriously doubt that the minor league pitching is much, if any, of a factor in the selling price of an MLB franchise , especially one as highly valued as the Red Sox.

 

absolutely

[notin]

I guess Sox fans would be fine, if we had Logan Webb (26-22 in last 2 years) on our team, and traded him for Chris Bassitt (31-17 in last 2 years.)

 

How about Nola (23-22) for Kyle Gibson (25-17).

 

Or trade Brayan Bello (14-19) for Martin Perez (22-12).

[Old Red]

The argument is about the importance of W-L record. Bellhorn calls it the spread. Or you can look at winning pct. Either way, it is a weak assessment of pitcher ability...

 

You can count any kind of stat however you like, but it doesn’t change how someone else can look at a stat, and come to a different assessment. We’ve gone over this sort of disagreement 100’s of times, and it hasn’t changed anyone’s point of view, and it never will. Down, or try to down Old Schoolers stats all you want. It doesn’t work, or change a thing.

[moonslav59]

Or trade Brayan Bello (14-19) for Martin Perez (22-12).

 

Why would any GM want to trade Martin for a loser?

[Old Red]

I guess Sox fans would be fine, if we had Logan Webb (26-22 in last 2 years) on our team, and traded him for Chris Bassitt (31-17 in last 2 years.)

 

How about Nola (23-22) for Kyle Gibson (25-17).

You guys go off in all different directions to make you feel better about your narrative, and point.

[dgalehouse]

One more time - Aaron Nola was 32-31 in his last 3 seasons. That's an average record of 10.7-10.3.

 

Dombrowski gave him a contract for 7 years and 172 million.

 

And as far as I know, you think Dombrowski is a good CBO.

 

You really have no counterargument to this. Because there isn't one.

 

I think Dombrowski is an excellent CBO. One of the best ever. That is because of his record of successes. I don't know if Nola is better than Montgomery . I am simply saying that Montgomery has never won more than ten games. That is a fact. If he comes to Boston, let's hope he does better than that. The much ( and unfairly) maligned David Price was 75 games over .500 for his career. A winner.

[Bellhorn04]

You can count any kind of stat however you like, but it doesn’t change how someone else can look at a stat, and come to a different assessment. We’ve gone over this sort of disagreement 100’s of times, and it hasn’t changed anyone’s point of view, and it never will. Down, or try to down Old Schoolers stats all you want. It doesn’t work, or change a thing.

 

Yeah, but some things are just obvious. Like the Phillies giving 172 million to a guy who's 32-31 in his last 3 seasons. That's just a plain old fact.

[notin]

You can count any kind of stat however you like, but it doesn’t change how someone else can look at a stat, and come to a different assessment. We’ve gone over this sort of disagreement 100’s of times, and it hasn’t changed anyone’s point of view, and it never will. Down, or try to down Old Schoolers stats all you want. It doesn’t work, or change a thing.

 

It should. But some people refuse to be objective about it.

 

10 game winner Jordan Montgomery is considered to be an insufficient addition to the Sox by the Old School. But 10 game winner Corbin Burnes went to Baltimore and suddenly became a division changer per the same Old School. And sure, it's one year of Burnes. After all, he has won as many as 12 games in a season, a career high less than that of Martin Perez...

[Old Red]

Why would any GM want to trade Martin for a loser?

 

You guys try to make it sound like some say that W-L record for a pitcher is the end all be all on how good a starting pitcher is, and I’ve never said that. I’ve said it’s the first thing I notice, but then look further as other stats as well.

[notin]

You guys try to make it sound like some say that W-L record for a pitcher is the end all be all on how good a starting pitcher is, and I’ve never said that. I’ve said it’s the first thing I notice, but then look further as other stats as well.

 

Maybe you do, but dgalehouse is citing Montgomery's W-L record and nothing else. And in subsequent posts, supporting that position...

[dgalehouse]

You guys go off in all different directions to make you feel better about your narrative, and point.

 

In the end, the only stat that matters is wins and losses. That is the finished product. All the other stats are just what goes into building the product.

[notin]

In the end, the only stat that matters is wins and losses. That is the finished product. All the other stats are just what goes into building the product.

 

Team wins and losses matter. Pitcher wins and losses really don't...

[Old Red]

Yeah, but some things are just obvious. Like the Phillies giving 172 million to a guy who's 32-31 in his last 3 seasons. That's just a plain old fact.

 

I have said all along even before FA season started that Monty, or others would help the Red Sox. I also said that, because there is a big need, and the current crop is available they will get more money than they are worth. We already had a discussion on Monty on where he ranked in the pecking order on a staff, and you said Sean McAdams didn’t know what he was talking about, because he didn’t agree with you. I’ve been saying for over two years now that every fan sees things differently on how they look, and analyze things. I could care less if a so called 1 is going against a 5 in a game, and don’t even think about it when watching a game.

[notin]

I have said all along even before FA season started that Monty, or others would help the Red Sox. I also said that, because there is a big need, and the current crop is available they will get more money than they are worth. We already had a discussion on Monty on where he ranked in the pecking order on a staff, and you said Sean McAdams didn’t know what he was talking about, because he didn’t agree with you. I’ve been saying for over two years now that every fan sees things differently on how they look, and analyze things. I could care less if a so called 1 is going against a 5 in a game, and don’t even think about it when watching a game.

 

I support anyone who denigrates the pitcher ranking system. And I award double points if they refuse to use or severely question the word "ace"...

[dgalehouse]

Maybe you do, but dgalehouse is citing Montgomery's W-L record and nothing else. And in subsequent posts, supporting that position...

 

I said Montgomery is a good pitcher. I mentioned his ERA. If the Sox sign him, it would certainly improve the staff. My point is that I hope he does better than 10-11. So far in his career, he has not been able to. That's all.

[notin]

I said Montgomery is a good pitcher. I mentioned his ERA. If the Sox sign him, it would certainly improve the staff. My point is that I hope he does better than 10-11. So far in his career, he has not been able to. That's all.

 

I don't care if he goes 10-11, as long as the team wins the majority of his starts. As I said before, Lackey's worst W-L record in Boston was in 2013...

[Old Red]

Maybe you do, but dgalehouse is citing Montgomery's W-L record and nothing else. And in subsequent posts, supporting that position...

 

SO? That’s his opinion, which he, or anyone else is entitled to.

[notin]

SO? That’s his opinion, which he, or anyone else is entitled to.

 

And I am entitled to question it or comment on it, am I not?

[Old Red]

I support anyone who denigrates the pitcher ranking system. And I award double points if they refuse to use or severely question the word "ace"...

 

A so called Ace isn’t nowhere near what it used to be.

[notin]

A so called Ace isn’t nowhere near what it used to be.

 

Hard to say, since it has never been defined by anyone. Most people just say stuff like "I know one when I see one" and expect me to defer to their authority...

[Old Red]

And I am entitled to question it or comment on it, am I not?

 

If you have the need, and makes you feel better then go for it, but like I keep on saying it doesn’t change a thing, or anyone else.

[Old Red]

Hard to say, since it has never been defined by anyone. Most people just say stuff like "I know one when I see one" and expect me to defer to their authority...

 

Like I’ve said many times starting pitchers used to be as revered as the big sluggers. Sandy was as popular, or well known as Willie. Gibby was as popular, or will known as Hank. Call them an Ace, or a 1 today, but it as nowhere near the same meaning.

[dgalehouse]

It is futile to argue with the stat heads. They will ignore the bottom line and try to dissect everything. And that's okay. That is what they enjoy. It's like this: Fan: " Joe Schmenge hit 30 homers ". Stat head: Yeah, but what was his " barrel rate" ? Fan: " I don't know. But I like the 30 homers". Stat head: " Well , George Schmidlap only had 24 homers, but he had a better " barrel rate" , so Schmenge was probably just lucky". Fan: " Okay, Stat. Whatever you say. Enjoy the game".

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Decades ago, when I covered NHL hockey, an old scribe sitting next to me in the press box insisted the league should keep track of and list won-loss records of goalies. He argued their value was akin to pitchers in baseball... especially in the playoffs.

 

I noted not all goalie wins are the same, especially when some victors save twice as many (or more) shots on goal than others, depending on the support of his defenders and the firepower of opponents' offense.

 

So... I just looked up the NHL record for most saves in a playoff game. Most ever is by Joonas Korpisalo, Columbus Blue Jackets: 85 saves in 2020. Next is Igor Shesterkin, New York Rangers, 2022: 79. Both came in overtime games.

 

Both lost.

[Old Red]

It is futile to argue with the stat heads. They will ignore the bottom line and try to dissect everything. And that's okay. That is what they enjoy. It's like this: Fan: " Joe Schmenge hit 30 homers ". Stat head: Yeah, but what was his " barrel rate" ? Fan: " I don't know. But I like the 30 homers". Stat head: " Well , George Schmidlap only had 24 homers, but he had a better " barrel rate" , so Schmenge was probably just lucky". Fan: " Okay, Stat. Whatever you say. Enjoy the game".

 

You’re right about being futile, and like I’ve said many times all kinds of bells, and whistles goes off anytime certain things are mentioned on here like W-L records for pitchers, BA, or the good old eye test just to name a few, and then right on Que the downing of the Old Schoolers will start, or should I say what they perceive as downing of the Old Schoolers will start. It is quite hilarious that they actually think it stings, and hurt feelings will be the result.🙈🤭

[notin]

If you have the need, and makes you feel better then go for it, but like I keep on saying it doesn’t change a thing, or anyone else.

 

And that’s your opinion. Or admission of stubbornness.

 

I’ve changed the occasional viewpoint based on points other posters have made. Multiple times…

[Old Red]

Decades ago, when I covered NHL hockey, an old scribe sitting next to me in the press box insisted the league should keep track of and list won-loss records of goalies. He argued their value was akin to pitchers in baseball... especially in the playoffs.

 

I noted not all goalie wins are the same, especially when some victors save twice as many (or more) shots on goal than others, depending on the support of his defenders and the firepower of opponents' offense.

 

So... I just looked up the NHL record for most saves in a playoff game. Most ever is by Joonas Korpisalo, Columbus Blue Jackets: 85 saves in 2020. Next is Igor Shesterkin, New York Rangers, 2022: 79. Both came in overtime games.

 

Both lost.

 

All it takes is one to get through the wicket no matter how many saves you have.