Red Sox: Off Season '23-'24

[mvp 78]

I am going to assume this is related to the 1986 World Series and nothing else…

 

Yes. The only other memory I have of the Steamer is going to the final game of 1989 when he and Rice were retiring and the crowd started to chant for him in the later innings.

[mvp 78]

Consider yourself lucky you were only 1 year old for the 1978 playoff game. Poor old Bob had a hand in that one too.

 

Yuck.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Porcello didn't have the strain that Eovaldi did. ERod had less of a strain than the others simply because of ineffectiveness. Price had a fairly normal starter's workload except for facing 3 batters in Game 3 of the WS. Sale only threw 15 innings the whole postseason.

 

Fans can never know the extent of strain pitching out of regular routines, starters working in relief, and the high leverage situations that often come in late innings (especially with flags and rings on the line).

 

We also probably might never know whose arm was hanging but ignored the pain and tweaked something more long-lasting -- because who's going to admit that?

[mvp 78]

Fans can never know the extent of strain pitching out of regular routines, starters working in relief, and the high leverage situations that often come in late innings (especially with flags and rings on the line).

 

Ok, but then a fan should never say "oh the reason he got injured was X, because fans can never know."

[moonslav59]

Ok, but then a fan should never say "oh the reason he got injured was X, because fans can never know."

 

Indeed, and in Foulke's case, he had pitched more innings in a previous season and near or over 80 high leverage IP, numerous times before 2004.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Ok, but then a fan should never say "oh the reason he got injured was X, because fans can never know."

 

Or they can just blame the manager of the greatest team in franchise history for transforming in one winter into the worst handler of starting pitchers ever for a defending champion.

[Dipre]

The fact that they're not mutually exclusing plays into my point that it's a chronic injury and not acute. It wasn't caused by 3 days of overuse. YOu can't be injured in 3 days from overuse unless you've been overused for a very very long time.

 

Like a runner running a race, you're going to get tired and eventually have to stop if you try to over do it, and it will happen time and time again before you get hurt. But if you have bad form, bad shoes, etc etc etc, eventually one day you will get injured.

 

That's a chronic problem. 3 days didn't ruin his career. But again.....I don't think Faulk will complain.

 

Bro, what part of "it takes one bad throw due to a mechanical error" and "fatigue increases the likelihood of this happening" is the sticking point? An injury can happen anytime, anywhere, under any circumstance, but it is absolutely, definitively logical to assume that throwing lots of pitches in consecutive days increases the likelihood merely by chance. We're not arguing Foulke specifically, which is why I prefaced with "my issue is the generalization", but overuse during the playoffs may have very well been the straw that broke the camel's back. You deny it categorically, I say it's a possibility. Ask Robb Nen.

[Dipre]

Indeed, and in Foulke's case, he had pitched more innings in a previous season and near or over 80 high leverage IP, numerous times before 2004.

 

Quick question: Is it categorically impossible that pitching multiple high-pitch count, high-stress innings in the playoffs during 2004 created an injury that derailed the rest of Foulke's career?

[Hugh2]

Bro, what part of "it takes one bad throw due to a mechanical error" and "fatigue increases the likelihood of this happening" is the sticking point? An injury can happen anytime, anywhere, under any circumstance, but it is absolutely, definitively logical to assume that throwing lots of pitches in consecutive days increases the likelihood merely by chance. We're not arguing Foulke specifically, which is why I prefaced with "my issue is the generalization", but overuse during the playoffs may have very well been the straw that broke the camel's back. You deny it categorically, I say it's a possibility. Ask Robb Nen.

 

The straw that broke the camels back yes. But if all it takes is a straw then something, somewhere, at any time soon is going to break it. The wear and tear from years prior is every other straw but that last one.

 

I don't disagree with your statement at all, of course that increases the likelyhood. I'll go back to my heart attack example, if you have an insanely stressful work week and have a heart attack that amount of added stress increased the likleyhood of it happening, but it was still the years of bad habits that led there). I would blame the former and not the later on ending his career. That's my point......3 days in November didn't end his career.

[notin]

Ok, but then a fan should never say "oh the reason he got injured was X, because fans can never know."

 

 

Well, sometimes the cause of the injury is obvious. See Pedroia, Dustin...

[jad]

I am going to assume this is related to the 1986 World Series and nothing else…

 

Yeah, without poor Bob, they wouldn't have had a sniff at that WS. I recall watching the hideous game 7 (none of us knowing that Oil Can had drunk himself into oblivion--or so I hear--and was unavailable), and my friend saying as the string of RS relievers threw it away -- 'Why not Bob Stanley, facrisake!' Btw, is that true about Oil Can? or is that just another one of the stories he so happily made up?

[Hugh2]

Quick question: Is it categorically impossible that pitching multiple high-pitch count, high-stress innings in the playoffs during 2004 created an injury that derailed the rest of Foulke's career?

 

What injury did it cause? Because he pitched the next year after that, he didn't have any surgery on his elbow and it was knee injuries that sidelined him the next year or so.

 

He didn't have surgery on his elbow until a few years later. If he blew his elbow out and had to be carted off the field in 2004 that would be something different, but even then I would argue it was still the "straw that broke the camels back".

 

So the final straw broke his back years later? Maybe I'm misremmebering things here but that just doesn't make any sense.

 

I don't think anyone can ever have surgery and go look back years and pinpoint it to an overuse event, if he suffered an injury that serious that he actually needed elbow surgery he wouldn't be using his elbow for years more before needing said surgery.

[Bellhorn04]

As to 'specific events', there have been a number of examples in recent years of pitchers throwing no-hitters, throwing more pitches than normal in the process, and having this followed by a period of ineffectiveness or injury. It happened with Kluber when he was with the Yankees. Edited February 5, 2024 by Bellhorn04

[mvp 78]

Quick question: Is it categorically impossible that pitching multiple high-pitch count, high-stress innings in the playoffs during 2004 created an injury that derailed the rest of Foulke's career?

 

No.

[notin]

As to 'specific events', there have been a number of examples in recent years of pitchers throwing no-hitters, throwing significantly more pitches than normal in the process, and having this followed by a period of ineffectiveness or injury. It happened with Kluber when he was with the Yankees.

 

How many of those no-hitters ended careers?

Edited February 5, 2024 by notin

[mvp 78]

Well, sometimes the cause of the injury is obvious. See Pedroia, Dustin...

 

Almost as obvious as the Red Sox need to trade him ahead of time.

[Hugh2]

As to 'specific events', there have been a number of examples in recent years of pitchers throwing no-hitters, throwing significantly more pitches than normal in the process, and having this followed by a period of ineffectiveness or injury. It happened with Kluber when he was with the Yankees.

 

Yes, but these guys have also all been pitching for a very long time as well. It's almost a given that a guy will have surgery at least once in his career, and nowadays it's almost a given you will recover from it as well.

 

There's also a difference between getting the surgery and getting fixed, and pitching through it. Which, if that's the case here, Faulk waited years to fix his elbow. That's the real culprit, not 3 days, if he pitched for years on it after a "speficic event" then he made it astronomically worse.

[Bellhorn04]

How many of those no-hitters ended careers?

 

The point is there is evidence of specific events having adverse effects.

[Dipre]

What injury did it cause? Because he pitched the next year after that, he didn't have any surgery on his elbow and it was knee injuries that sidelined him the next year or so.

 

He didn't have surgery on his elbow until a few years later. If he blew his elbow out and had to be carted off the field in 2004 that would be something different, but even then I would argue it was still the "straw that broke the camels back".

 

So the final straw broke his back years later? Maybe I'm misremmebering things here but that just doesn't make any sense.

 

I don't think anyone can ever have surgery and go look back years and pinpoint it to an overuse event, if he suffered an injury that serious that he actually needed elbow surgery he wouldn't be using his elbow for years more before needing said surgery.

 

But plenty of pitchers have developed soft tissue injuries that don't require surgery, and are degenerative in nature. Again, is it impossible for such an issue to prop up during the playoff run? I don't understand the interest in specifying that it's impossible.

[notin]

Quick question: Is it categorically impossible that pitching multiple high-pitch count, high-stress innings in the playoffs during 2004 created an injury that derailed the rest of Foulke's career?

 

Created? Probably not. Exacerbated? I could see that...

[notin]

The point is there is evidence of specific events having adverse effects.

 

Is there?

 

Kluber pitched 164 IP the following season. He also had a pretty significant injury history beforehand, including pitching a total of 36 IP in 2019 and 2020 combined...

[Bellhorn04]

Is anyone here familiar with the term "getting Scott Proctored"?

 

It's widely accepted that Joe Torre ruined Proctor's arm through overuse.

 

Does anyone really doubt that overuse can be damaging to an arm or that teams invest a lot of management effort in preventing this from happening?

[notin]

Is anyone here familiar with the term "getting Scott Proctored"?

 

It's widely accepted that Joe Torre ruined Proctor's arm through overuse.

 

Does anyone really doubt that overuse can be damaging to an arm or that teams invest a lot of management effort in preventing this from happening?

 

But that was over multiple seasons, not one week.

 

Foulke was overused, too. Just that it was being done by Chicago and Oakland before he even came to Boston.

 

We know overuse can be an issue. That's why pitch counts started getting used in the first place...

[Bellhorn04]

Is there?

 

Kluber pitched 164 IP the following season. He also had a pretty significant injury history beforehand, including pitching a total of 36 IP in 2019 and 2020 combined...

 

If indisputable empirical proof is your standard, we might as well forget it. This is more about common sense.

[Bellhorn04]

But that was over multiple seasons, not one week.

 

Foulke was overused, too. Just that it was being done by Chicago and Oakland before he even came to Boston.

 

We know overuse can be an issue. That's why pitch counts started getting used in the first place...

 

Not just pitch counts but days between use.

[mvp 78]

Yeah, without poor Bob, they wouldn't have had a sniff at that WS. I recall watching the hideous game 7 (none of us knowing that Oil Can had drunk himself into oblivion--or so I hear--and was unavailable), and my friend saying as the string of RS relievers threw it away -- 'Why not Bob Stanley, facrisake!' Btw, is that true about Oil Can? or is that just another one of the stories he so happily made up?

 

With Oil Can, it's hard to say. He's an unreliable narrator. He said that he found out he wouldn't pitch Game 7 the day of and ran off and cried. He had a known drug problem and maybe Mac saying "he was drunk" was a polite way of saying he ran off to do crack to help cope. He had a very volatile season (Can Film Festival, 21 game suspension after a run in with Rice and leaving the team all due to not being picked for the All Star Game, injuring his arm in a tussle with the cops). If we believe that he was using substances to cope with his problems throughout the season, it's not farfetched to believe that he was hurt enough to do something stupid prior to Game 7 after hearing that Mac was going to start Hurst instead.

[notin]

If indisputable empirical proof is your standard, we might as well forget it. This is more about common sense.

 

 

Where did those goal posts go?

 

No one is even asking for indisputable proof. But I do think the standard should be higher than Ironclad Innuendo.

 

Right now the debate is "Francona ruined Foulke in one week" vs "Francona probably added the final straw to an increasingly fragile arm". Sound about right?

[mvp 78]

As to 'specific events', there have been a number of examples in recent years of pitchers throwing no-hitters, throwing more pitches than normal in the process, and having this followed by a period of ineffectiveness or injury. It happened with Kluber when he was with the Yankees.

 

That's not really out of the normal for Foulke IMO. It's not like what the Phillies did with Lorenzen.

[Hugh2]

But plenty of pitchers have developed soft tissue injuries that don't require surgery, and are degenerative in nature. Again, is it impossible for such an issue to prop up during the playoff run? I don't understand the interest in specifying that it's impossible.

 

You're describing a chronic problem. If a three day period injured a guy harshely enough to derail his career he wouldn't be throwing on it for an additional two years before having surgery, he would have developed an acute injury.

[Dipre]

Where did those goal posts go?

 

No one is even asking for indisputable proof. But I do think the standard should be higher than Ironclad Innuendo.

 

Right now the debate is "Francona ruined Foulke in one week" vs "Francona probably added the final straw to an increasingly fragile arm". Sound about right?

 

Not just about Foulke, but in general. Foulke is merely a known example to us Sox fans.