Red Sox: Off Season '23-'24

[Old Red]

Nate was 4th in CY voting. Led the league in FIP. He was really f***ing good that year.

 

If Nate was f’n good in 2021 fine.

[Old Red]

They could take baby steps as a team, put a better product on the field and still wind up with a worse record IMO.

 

Yes that could happen that they could get better, but other teams could get better as well, but I’m not going to write the season off before it even starts, or the postseason if somehow they manage a appearance before they even start either.

[mvp 78]

Who was the Rangers ace last year?

 

Jordan Montgomery:

 

11 G

2.79 ERA

1.094 WHIP

 

2.90 ERA in the playoffs

 

Red Sox perennial 1b Nasty Nate was also damn electric in the playoffs.

 

Probably could consider the Rangers having two aces.

[moonslav59]

They could take baby steps as a team, put a better product on the field and still wind up with a worse record IMO.

 

I agree.

 

Just compare these two seasons of significant offseason additions:

 

2021:

$10M x 1 Richards

$8M x 1 Ottavino (trade)

$7M x 2 Kike

$5M x 1 Perez

$3.1M Renfroe

$3.0M Marwin

$2.0M x 1 Andriese

$1.5M x 2 Sawamura

 

2022

$140M/6 Story

$12M/1 JBJ (trade)

$14M/2 Paxton

$7M/1 Wacha

$5M/1 R Hill

$8M/ Diekman

$3M/1 Strahm

 

2023:

$90M/5 Yoshida

$32M/2 Jansen

$12M/1 Turner

$10M/1 Kluber

$18M/2 Martin

$7M/1 Duvall

$3M/1 Mondesi (trade)

 

Which season got the best results from their additions?

 

 

[mvp 78]

"Built for the postseason" = crap. There is no magic formula.

 

And after 2 seasons in the cellar, wouldn't even a 2 game series in October be nice? Even Usain Bolt only took baby steps at one point...

This is ********. If you look at the 4 Red Sox WS champs, they all had really great starting rotations that stayed relatively healthy except for miscellaneous baby attacks.

[moonslav59]

This is ********. If you look at the 4 Red Sox WS champs, they all had really great starting rotations that stayed relatively healthy except for miscellaneous baby attacks.

 

Why look at just 4 examples?

 

(BTW, I agree that SP'ing is the major factor in PO wins.)

[mvp 78]

Why look at just 4 examples?

 

(BTW, I agree that SP'ing is the major factor in PO wins.)

 

Because it's the easiest for us as Red Sox fans to conceptualize.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Another week of no Red Sox pitching upgrades... so we're back to this:

 

There was this one time in baseball history when a team won without an ace starting pitcher! The Royals, back in the mid-20teens!

 

And one time when the last place Red Sox signed a bunch of veteran free agents with something to prove -- and they did, by winning it all, back in the mid-20teens!

 

EVERYTHING went just right for those Sox, so it can again... (if only they already had All-Stars like Ortiz, Pedroia, Ellsbury, Buchholz and Lester).

 

Does anyone remember the name of Boston's pitching coach on the '13 Koji Sox? Hints: first name was Juan, last name was Nieves. Bet some posters still won't get it.

 

Point: he wasn't. Andrew. Bailey...

[moonslav59]

Because it's the easiest for us as Red Sox fans to conceptualize.

 

But, do you really think most Sox fans only view our championship seasons as the only ones that count on an issue like this?

 

While it is well documented that our 4 rings involved having not just one, but at least two very good SP'ers, but that the overall health of the rotation was present, too.

 

IMO, the rotation has been THE major reason we have 4 rings. For so many years, we seemed to fall short due to being out pitched or seemingly one top SP'er short of being champs, but there are many examples in MLB where teams witn without having a clear ace. There have been a few examples where teams win without having a really good #2 or #3 SP'er, either.

 

To say it is "BS" to say this is over reach, IMO.

 

[notin]

Jordan Montgomery:

 

11 G

2.79 ERA

1.094 WHIP

 

2.90 ERA in the playoffs

 

Red Sox perennial 1b Nasty Nate was also damn electric in the playoffs.

 

Probably could consider the Rangers having two aces.

 

11 games? Can’t count him. I mean, you can’t discount the Sox for not having an ace in January when as recent as last year the champs did not get theirs until August.

 

Nate was the guy for the first few months, but he wasn’t really all that much better than Bello last year…

[Old Red]

But, do you really think most Sox fans only view our championship seasons as the only ones that count on an issue like this?

 

While it is well documented that our 4 rings involved having not just one, but at least two very good SP'ers, but that the overall health of the rotation was present, too.

 

IMO, the rotation has been THE major reason we have 4 rings. For so many years, we seemed to fall short due to being out pitched or seemingly one top SP'er short of being champs, but there are many examples in MLB where teams witn without having a clear ace. There have been a few examples where teams win without having a really good #2 or #3 SP'er, either.

 

To say it is "BS" to say this is over reach, IMO.

 

 

When does anyone over reach on here?🤭🙈

[mvp 78]

11 games? Can’t count him. I mean, you can’t discount the Sox for not having an ace in January when as recent as last year the champs did not get theirs until August.

 

Nate was the guy for the first few months, but he wasn’t really all that much better than Bello last year…

 

I sure as s*** can count him.

[dgalehouse]

It's a team sport. Numerous components. Starting pitching. Bullpen. Hitting. Defense. Base running. Strategy. Motivation. Luck. Health. They all play a part. All you have to do is score one more run than your opponent. Don't get obsessive that the only way to succeed is by getting another starting pitcher ,or even two more starters.

[mvp 78]

It's a team sport. Numerous components. Starting pitching. Bullpen. Hitting. Defense. Base running. Strategy. Motivation. Luck. Health. They all play a part. All you have to do is score one more run than your opponent. Don't get obsessive that the only way to succeed is by getting another starting pitcher ,or even two more starters.

 

Wrong.

[dgalehouse]

Wrong.

 

Wrong again ? Darn it. I'm just going to have to go back to the drawing board and try harder. You guys on here are very brilliant with your analysis. " We need starting pitching !!!". It is hard for me to keep pace.

[Bellhorn04]

It's a team sport. Numerous components. Starting pitching. Bullpen. Hitting. Defense. Base running. Strategy. Motivation. Luck. Health. They all play a part. All you have to do is score one more run than your opponent. Don't get obsessive that the only way to succeed is by getting another starting pitcher ,or even two more starters.

 

I know what you're saying, but starting pitching is our obvious biggest need. Our bullpen looks good, we've got some good everyday players and prospects, but not much proven and reliable starting pitching. Plus there have been a bunch of them available this offseason.

[moonslav59]

I know what you're saying, but starting pitching is our obvious biggest need. Our bullpen looks good, we've got some good everyday players and prospects, but not much proven and reliable starting pitching. Plus there have been a bunch of them available this offseason.

 

It's not rocket science.

 

While there is no guarantee adding much better SP'ing will get us to the playoffs, it sure looks like the area most in need of a serious upgrade. The added benefit of upgrading the rotation would be a likely serious upgrade to the pen, as we move 1 or 2 pitchers, who have shown they can do very well in the pen, back into it.

 

As bad as this team has looked for a couple years, it seems like we were just 2 solid SP'ers away from being a playoff team. Maybe one ace type could have been enough.

 

I might be a homer for saying this, but we could still add Monty, Clevinger and Duvall and be at worst, WC contenders in 2024. Maybe just Monty and Duvall.

[dgalehouse]

I know what you're saying, but starting pitching is our obvious biggest need. Our bullpen looks good, we've got some good everyday players and prospects, but not much proven and reliable starting pitching. Plus there have been a bunch of them available this offseason.

 

Absolutely. Just saying that it's not the only way. A lot of things go into winning baseball. And the willingness to spend money or prospects for talent is certainly one of them. And the ability to judge talent is another. And those things have been missing lately. It would be ideal to have a great rotation. No doubt about that.

[moonslav59]

We could use an upgrade at Catcher or CF/RF, but clearly our rotation is a much higher priority.

 

Plus, we have Teel and Anthony as our best, near ML ready, prospects, so any upgrade would likely have to be a one year player.

 

[moonslav59]

Absolutely. Just saying that it's not the only way. A lot of things go into winning baseball. And the willingness to spend money or prospects for talent is certainly one of them. And the ability to judge talent is another. And those things have been missing lately. It would be ideal to have a great rotation. No doubt about that.

 

Agreed. When you look at possible upgrade areas, there are usually a few factors involved.

 

Take the example brought up, earlier, about signing Matt Chapman. It would be a cle upgrade on defense, and would push Devers to 1B/DH, Casas to DH/1B and Yoshida to near FT LF. It's not easy valuing the changes made to those 4 positions on O and D.

 

You have to look at how much of an upgrade is any addition over what you have, and what you do with the current starter. Adding a catcher would be easy, especially for a one year deal or until Teel is ready. Wong or McGuire becomes the back-up and we trade the other or send Wong to AAA as depth. Adding a CF'er keeps Rafaela and or Abreu in AAA for another season and might bridge us to Anthony, assuming it is also a one year deal. The side advantage is that it locks Duran into LF, more often. Adding a RF'er might force Duran to CF, as O'Neill plays LF. That seems like less of a plus, in theory.

 

Upgrading one or two Rotation slots offers the chance for a larger gain, because what we have is so low or questionable. The added advantage is moving Houck or Crawford to the pen. Double plus. Add two solid SP'ers and it's a quadruple plus.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Upgrading one or two Rotation slots offers the chance for a larger gain, because what we have is so low or questionable. The added advantage is moving Houck or Crawford to the pen. Double plus. Add two solid SP'ers and it's a quadruple plus.

 

Let's not forget the benefits to the established relievers.

 

There's a reason the Red Sox bullpen burns out and the club collapses just about every August... it's not just bad morale caused by a front office refusing to properly fortify the roster at the deadline.

[moonslav59]

Let's not forget the benefits to the established relievers.

 

There's a reason the Red Sox bullpen burns out and the club collapses just about every August... it's not just bad morale caused by a front office refusing to properly fortify the roster at the deadline.

 

Indeed! It seems like adding a quality SP'ers has a ripple effect all the way down the line, unlike other positions.

[moonslav59]

Alex Wood to sign with A's.

[Randy Red Sox]

Alex Wood to sign with A's.

Big bloody deal

[notin]

Big bloody deal

 

He’d have been a reasonable depth option for Boston. Maybe even a back end starter that pushed Houck to the bullpen…

[moonslav59]

Big bloody deal

 

Since 2021, he has more IP (367) than most of the guys we have starting and 3.76 xFIP.

 

38. Nate 3.63

39. Gray 3.65

44. Wood 3.76

45. Cease 3.76

49. Luzardo 3.81

57. Verlander 3.87

59. ERod 3.89

68. Giolito 3.97

69. Bello 3.97

 

151 pitchers with 200+ IP since 2021.

 

[jad]

It's a team sport. Numerous components. Starting pitching. Bullpen. Hitting. Defense. Base running. Strategy. Motivation. Luck. Health. They all play a part. All you have to do is score one more run than your opponent. Don't get obsessive that the only way to succeed is by getting another starting pitcher ,or even two more starters.

 

Sounds like this came straight from the FO.

[Randy Red Sox]

He’d have been a reasonable depth option for Boston. Maybe even a back end starter that pushed Houck to the bullpen…

 

none the less he is out of our budget range

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

none the less he is out of our budget range

 

But he's on our radar -- blip, he gone!

 

(Men in Black just interrupted this post, shoving a waiver under the door and demanding signatures swearing this never happened, lest typists disappear somewhere in the deserts surrounding the Cactus League).

[mvp 78]

He’d have been a reasonable depth option for Boston. Maybe even a back end starter that pushed Houck to the bullpen…

 

He was pushed to the pen in SF under Bailey. If Bailey liked him, we would have heard a rumor or two. We didn't.