Red Sox: Off Season '23-'24

[moonslav59]

I do think Clevinger and Lauer both have better track record than Houck as starting pitchers, at least to date.

 

Sign ‘em both! Wandy Peralta, too!

 

You gave up on Alex Wood?

[moonslav59]

Yes, it's where their stuff works the best.

 

Winck's stuff plays up in the pen. He's a mediocre starter even in AAA.

 

Houck can't get through an order a third time and even drops off considerably the second time.

 

Whitlock just has never stayed healthy when converted to a starter role.

 

It just seems obvious EVEN THOUGH IT HASN'T BEEN REPORTED OR THEY HAVEN'T OUTRIGHT SAID IT.

 

Houck going 18 batters is not far from the league average and likely better than Wink & Whitlock can do.

 

To me, Pivetta should be the first choice.

 

Crawford and Houck are close, and I'd like both in the pen, but I'd pick Houck.

 

1st, 2nd & 3rd PA as SP ONLY OPS Against

.575>.709>.957 Houck

.656>.770>1.069 Crawford

.760>.692>1.122 Whitlock

.723>.905>.957 Winckowski (15 GS career)

 

Pitch 1-25, 26-50, 51-75, 76-100 as SP & RP

.519>.656>.844>.836 Houck

.671>.742>.747>.845 Crawford

.685>.600>.823>.969 Whitlock

.730>.808>.920>.965 Winckowski

[Old Red]

Yes, it's where their stuff works the best.

 

Winck's stuff plays up in the pen. He's a mediocre starter even in AAA.

 

Houck can't get through an order a third time and even drops off considerably the second time.

 

Whitlock just has never stayed healthy when converted to a starter role.

 

It just seems obvious EVEN THOUGH IT HASN'T BEEN REPORTED OR THEY HAVEN'T OUTRIGHT SAID IT.

 

Pivetta’s stuff played up better in the pen too after he got taken out of the rotation, but unfortunately it doesn’t look like any more pitchers aren’t coming from FA, and no trades are going to be made, so the rotation has to be filled out from somewhere just like they have tried with Houck, and Whit the last two years.

[dgalehouse]

Pivetta made some additions to his pitching repertoire. That could be the reason for his improvement, more so than the move to the bullpen. He will almost certainly be in the rotation. Whitlock supposedly hit the gym this winter and has bulked up considerably. The idea being that this will help him avoid the injuries and maybe add a little velocity as well.

[moonslav59]

I really hope we add two more SP'ers, but I realize that it is just hope. We may not even add one, but I have much more faith we do add one- even if it is a $5-10M/1 type starter, again. If we can get 140 IP from the addition, that would mean less time in the rotation needed from our "swingmen."

 

1. Bello (really a number 3)

2. Giolito (really a number 3)

3. ______ (addition)

4. Pivetta (IMO, he's a lock for a rotation slot, unless he gets hurt.)

 

Then, I stack up the rest or the rotation like this, along with the depth chart:

5. Houck (yank him after 18 batters)

6. Crawford (fine with swapping him with Houck at #5)

7. The best from Max Castillo, Richard Fitts, Brandon Walter, Richard Fitts or Chris Murphy from AAA rather than Whitlock or Wink

8. Whitlock (or another one from #7)

9. Winckowski (I don't see any advantage of moving him from the role he grew into in 2023.)

10. Others from the #7 list

(More: Wikelman or Perales, if the impress, greatly.)

 

 

[notin]

You gave up on Alex Wood?

 

Plan C. I’m on the Lauer Train first…

[notin]

Pivetta made some additions to his pitching repertoire. That could be the reason for his improvement, more so than the move to the bullpen. He will almost certainly be in the rotation. Whitlock supposedly hit the gym this winter and has bulked up considerably. The idea being that this will help him avoid the injuries and maybe add a little velocity as well.

 

Plus Pivetta is in his option year. Never discount that…

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Plus Pivetta is in his option year. Never discount that…

 

Sam: "No discount? No contract!"

[moonslav59]

Plan C. I’m on the Lauer Train first…

 

It saddens me to think this is the best we can hope for, but I do think any of these plans are better than doing nothing and forcing some very good pen arms into the rotation.

 

Certainly Giolito has had better years, recently than these three, but in some ways, they are similar. We are being asked to think 2023 is not who these guys really are.

 

2021-2022

2023 (or other sample sizes):

 

Gio:

'21-'22: 61 GS 340 IP 4.18 ERA/3.92 FIP/1.261 WHIP

2023: 33 GS 184 IP 4.88 ERA/5.27 FIP/ 1.313 WHIP

 

Clevinger:

'17-'19: 74 GS 448 IP 2.96 ERA/3.32 FIP/ 1.153 WHIP

'20-'22: 30 GS 156 IP 3.98 ERA/4.75 FIP/1.186 WHIP

2023: 24 GS 131 IP 3.77 ERA/ 4.28 FIP/ 1.226 WHIP

 

Lauer:

'21-'22: 49 GS 277 IP 3.47 ERA/4.30 FIP/1.186 WHIP

2023: 9 GS 47 IP 6.56 ERA/ 7.41 FIP/ 1.671 WHIP

 

A Wood:

'17-'18: 52 GS 304 IP 3.20 ERA/ 3.43 FIP/ 1.132 WHIP

2021: 26 GS 139 IP 3.83 ERA/ 3.48 FIP/ 1.183 WHIP

2023: 12 GS 98 IP 4.33 ERA/ 4.47 FIP/ 1.433 WHIP (17 RP games)

 

 

[notin]

It saddens me to think this is the best we can hope for, but I do think any of these plans are better than doing nothing and forcing some very good pen arms into the rotation.

 

Certainly Giolito has had better years, recently than these three, but in some ways, they are similar. We are being asked to think 2023 is not who these guys really are.

 

2021-2022

2023 (or other sample sizes):

 

Gio:

'21-'22: 61 GS 340 IP 4.18 ERA/3.92 FIP/1.261 WHIP

2023: 33 GS 184 IP 4.88 ERA/5.27 FIP/ 1.313 WHIP

 

Clevinger:

'17-'19: 74 GS 448 IP 2.96 ERA/3.32 FIP/ 1.153 WHIP

'20-'22: 30 GS 156 IP 3.98 ERA/4.75 FIP/1.186 WHIP

2023: 24 GS 131 IP 3.77 ERA/ 4.28 FIP/ 1.226 WHIP

 

Lauer:

'21-'22: 49 GS 277 IP 3.47 ERA/4.30 FIP/1.186 WHIP

2023: 9 GS 47 IP 6.56 ERA/ 7.41 FIP/ 1.671 WHIP

 

A Wood:

'17-'18: 52 GS 304 IP 3.20 ERA/ 3.43 FIP/ 1.132 WHIP

2021: 26 GS 139 IP 3.83 ERA/ 3.48 FIP/ 1.183 WHIP

2023: 12 GS 98 IP 4.33 ERA/ 4.47 FIP/ 1.433 WHIP (17 RP games)

 

 

 

The other option is some sort of combo of Houck, Whitlock, Or Winckowski on the rotation and hopefully the Sox backfill the pen.

 

I used to lather among Bloom’s flaws. Lately I’m wondering if he was even allowed to…

[moonslav59]

The other option is some sort of combo of Houck, Whitlock, Or Winckowski on the rotation and hopefully the Sox backfill the pen.

 

I used to lather among Bloom’s flaws. Lately I’m wondering if he was even allowed to…

 

I think we may have already ruined Whit by starting him.

 

I'd prefer to just keep at least Whit and Wink in the pen that try to replace one who moves to the rotation.

 

I don't think Wood or Lauer will cost much.

 

To me, even using Craw and Houck in the rotation is misusing players.

 

We all screamed at Bloom for not signing Andrus and then Cora for continuing to play Kike out of position. Now, we are suggesting moving players out of positions they belong and into the unknown?

 

[Old Red]

I think we may have already ruined Whit by starting him.

 

I'd prefer to just keep at least Whit and Wink in the pen that try to replace one who moves to the rotation.

 

I don't think Wood or Lauer will cost much.

 

To me, even using Craw and Houck in the rotation is misusing players.

 

We all screamed at Bloom for not signing Andrus and then Cora for continuing to play Kike out of position. Now, we are suggesting moving players out of positions they belong and into the unknown?

 

 

Agree 100%.👍

[moonslav59]

David Robertson to TEX for $11-12M/1.

[moonslav59]

To me, this is a damn good pen. Call me a homer, but I believe it is:

 

Jansen Closer

Martin Set-up (PT Closer)

Winckowski Set-up

Schreiber Set-up

Whitlock Mid man

Crawford Long man

Houck Long man

Bernardino/Slaten/Mata/Campbell/Criswell/Weissert/Kelly... 8th man

 

(We'd need two more starters to make this happen.)

 

[Randy Red Sox]

I really hope we add two more SP'ers, but I realize that it is just hope. We may not even add one, but I have much more faith we do add one- even if it is a $5-10M/1 type starter, again. If we can get 140 IP from the addition, that would mean less time in the rotation needed from our "swingmen."

 

1. Bello (really a number 3)

2. Giolito (really a number 3)

3. ______ (addition)

4. Pivetta (IMO, he's a lock for a rotation slot, unless he gets hurt.)

 

Then, I stack up the rest or the rotation like this, along with the depth chart:

5. Houck (yank him after 18 batters)

6. Crawford (fine with swapping him with Houck at #5)

7. The best from Max Castillo, Richard Fitts, Brandon Walter, Richard Fitts or Chris Murphy from AAA rather than Whitlock or Wink

8. Whitlock (or another one from #7)

9. Winckowski (I don't see any advantage of moving him from the role he grew into in 2023.)

10. Others from the #7 list

(More: Wikelman or Perales, if the impress, greatly.)

 

 

 

Fitts is so good you mention him twice?

[Nick]

Reality check?

 

Our head baseball guy has said that our rotation is Bello, Giolito, Pivetta, Crawford and either Houck/Whitlock. I believe he has told couple of other players to be ready to start during spring training.

 

Why do we keep putting Crawford/Houck/Whitlock in the pen? Kutter started 20+ games for us and Houck was at 18 or so when he got hurt.

 

Apparently we need more proof as to who can start or not start.

[moonslav59]

Fitts is so good you mention him twice?

 

They cloned him. This new technology is taking over sports!

[moonslav59]

Reality check?

 

Our head baseball guy has said that our rotation is Bello, Giolito, Pivetta, Crawford and either Houck/Whitlock. I believe he has told couple of other players to be ready to start during spring training.

 

Why do we keep putting Crawford/Houck/Whitlock in the pen? Kutter started 20+ games for us and Houck was at 18 or so when he got hurt.

 

Apparently we need more proof as to who can start or not start.

 

I'm clearly saying it is what I want and not what is going to happen.

 

I'd like us to add 2 SP'ers and doubt we add even one.

[Old Red]

Reality check?

 

Our head baseball guy has said that our rotation is Bello, Giolito, Pivetta, Crawford and either Houck/Whitlock. I believe he has told couple of other players to be ready to start during spring training.

 

Why do we keep putting Crawford/Houck/Whitlock in the pen? Kutter started 20+ games for us and Houck was at 18 or so when he got hurt.

 

Apparently we need more proof as to who can start or not start.

 

As I’ve summarized the last two years is that Houck, and Whit keeps getting tryouts in the starting rotation is, because they are cheap options, and not, because they are really that good. It’s easier, and cheaper to get BP arms.

[Bellhorn04]

As I’ve summarized the last two years is that Houck, and Whit keeps getting tryouts in the starting rotation is, because they are cheap options, and not, because they are really that good. It’s easier, and cheaper to get BP arms.

 

They've decided to try jamming the square pegs in the round holes just one more time. Bailey will wave his wand and make it work.

[Old Red]

They've decided to try jamming the square pegs in the round holes just one more time. Bailey will wave his wand and make it work.

 

He’ll have quite an act if he can pull this one off.

[notin]

As I’ve summarized the last two years is that Houck, and Whit keeps getting tryouts in the starting rotation is, because they are cheap options, and not, because they are really that good. It’s easier, and cheaper to get BP arms.

 

Did you figure that out all by yourself?

[Old Red]

Did you figure that out all by yourself?

 

I figured it out with Whit in 2021, but I guess Cora doesn’t agree.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Why was Chaim Bloom replaced? Maybe it wasn't just franchise fiascos of losing homegrown stars... or denying deadline deals for vets on expiring contracts... or even the torpid ten-million dollar rehab signings.

 

What if Bloom was fired for the perception of all the big money he wasted?

 

Story and Yoshida have been overpays so far... and then there is Devers. Imagine a boss looking at the biggest expense for his company -- the guy with the largest salary on the payroll -- and noticing only two things: worst fielder in the majors at his position, and a batter who tries to crush 10-run homers on any pitch in the northern hemisphere.

 

Fans are glad Breslow (and the next two or three CBOs) control Raffy for the next decade. But he could really use a powerful righty hitter protecting his at bats in the line-up. Can O'Neill stay healthy and become that guy... ?

[Bellhorn04]

moon is a Kutter hater.

 

Thought I'd dredge this up again for the *sake of argument*.

 

Just looking at Crawford's 2023 game log, and one of his relief outings was 6.1 nearly immaculate innings on April 17, which skews his starter/reliever splits a tad.

[Bellhorn04]

Why was Chaim Bloom replaced? Maybe it wasn't just franchise fiascos of losing homegrown stars... or denying deadline deals for vets on expiring contracts... or even the torpid ten-million dollar rehab signings.

 

What if Bloom was fired for the perception of all the big money he wasted?

 

Story and Yoshida have been overpays so far... and then there is Devers. Imagine a boss looking at the biggest expense for his company -- the guy with the largest salary on the payroll -- and noticing only two things: worst fielder in the majors at his position, and a batter who tries to crush 10-run homers on any pitch in the northern hemisphere.

 

Fans are glad Breslow (and the next two or three CBOs) control Raffy for the next decade. But he could really use a powerful righty hitter protecting his at bats in the line-up. Can O'Neill stay healthy and become that guy... ?

 

We know the answer now: Bloom was too bold and liked to spend too much.

[moonslav59]

Thought I'd dredge this up again for the *sake of argument*.

 

Just looking at Crawford's 2023 game log, and one of his relief outings was 6.1 nearly immaculate innings on April 17, which skews his starter/reliever splits a tad.

 

It also supports the idea of him being a great long relief pitcher who can come into a game in the first or second inning, if needed, and save the pen from needing to use 4-5 pitchers.

 

I've said I'm fine with Crawford over Houck as the #4 or 5 guy.

 

Preferring Houck has more to do with his success facing the first 18 batters than anything bad about Kutter.

[moonslav59]

They've decided to try jamming the square pegs in the round holes just one more time. Bailey will wave his wand and make it work.

 

They may figure out a way to get these guys to do better as starters. They all have some "nasty stuff," so maybe it works out.

 

I'm just really keen on having a pen with 2-3 solid long relievers that can go 4-5 innings, if needed, even 6+ in some cases- like Crawford and Pivetta did, last year.

[Old Red]

We know the answer now: Bloom was too bold and liked to spend too much.

 

Seems like the only thing Bloom was bold on was Yoshida.

[Bellhorn04]

Seems like the only thing Bloom was bold on was Yoshida.

 

And that's much bolder than Brez so far.