Red Sox Starting Rotation 2023

[mvp 78]

You’re moving the goal posts.

 

I said no stat gives you less information about a hitter than batting average. If you disagree, tell me what stat is less informative?

 

Pitcher wins and losses.

[notin]

I'm going to say the least informative stat is number of walks to 2023 Devers. If he walks more, does that mean he's becoming more selective, or do opponents realize the Sox have absolutely nobody that can protect him in the batting order (until maybe Duvall shows he can bop again with a bum wrist)? Or does it mean Raffy is adopting Casas' approach, looking only for the perfect pitch, and welcomes the base on balls? But does anyone even want their $300 million dollar man strolling to first every game, on an offensive incident that generates traffic on the bases, but only ever moves it one car at a time -- instead of swinging from the heels as much as possible trying to clear the bags?

 

The number of walks Devers has this year is absolutely not the least informative stat. It tells you exactly how many walks he has. Right down to the very last walk.

 

That you can or cannot determine any root causes or hypotheticals from this doesn’t change that. That kind of logic can be applied to lots of stats, if not all of them.

 

Remember - stats on their are a record of a players history, not his ability. We use this history to quantify ability in most cases. But it’s not a perfect method and never will be…

[notin]

Pitcher wins and losses.

 

A great option, except I specifically did say “about a hitter.”

 

Pitcher W-L isn’t the pitching equivalent; it’s far, far less informative…

[Old Red]

But batting average is meaningless!

 

I mentioned this the other day that Hank Aaron said his proudest accomplishment, which were many with his bat was his Batting Aveerage.

[Bellhorn04]

The number of walks Devers has this year is absolutely not the least informative stat. It tells you exactly how many walks he has. Right down to the very last walk.

 

That you can or cannot determine any root causes or hypotheticals from this doesn’t change that. That kind of logic can be applied to lots of stats, if not all of them.

 

Remember - stats on their are a record of a players history, not his ability. We use this history to quantify ability in most cases. But it’s not a perfect method and never will be…

 

There are hardly any stats that don't need context/more information.

[notin]

There are hardly any stats that don't need context/more information.

 

But if you want a measure of how good a hitter is, OPS, OBP, wOBA, wRC, OPS+, RC and probably a few others all give more information than batting average…

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Pitcher wins and losses.

 

Ties are worse. And uncomfortable. And any public educational institution requiring them of male employees is breaking the law of gender bias established by Title IX.

[Old Red]

But if you want a measure of how good a hitter is, OPS, OBP, wOBA, wRC, OPS+, RC and probably a few others all give more information than batting average…

 

If you need all of those then fine, but I don’t, and I just don’t go on BA either.

[Dipre]

But if you want a measure of how good a hitter is, OPS, OBP, wOBA, wRC, OPS+, RC and probably a few others all give more information than batting average…

 

Nah, watching the games is enough brother. Devers clearly meeds his binky.

[Old Red]

Nah, watching the games is enough brother. Devers clearly meeds his binky.

 

According to the game threads they agree with you.

[notin]

According to the game threads they agree with you.

 

The game threads also strongly suggest the Sox are 0-66…

[Old Red]

The game threads also strongly suggest the Sox are 0-66…

 

That we agree on, and as I’ve stated before sometimes all it takes is one pitch to be made for the gloom, and doom to start.

[notin]

If you need all of those then fine, but I don’t, and I just don’t go on BA either.

 

No one needs them all. But each one is more informative.

 

BA has the advantage of being familiar to even the most casual baseball fan, and so it will never go away. But popularity doesn’t equate to informative…

[moonslav59]

No one needs them all. But each one is more informative.

 

BA has the advantage of being familiar to even the most casual baseball fan, and so it will never go away. But popularity doesn’t equate to informative…

 

Baseball is not a Democracy.

[Nick]

I tend to agree with you about Mayer right now. One of the reasons being that we need deep a shortstop desperately. I would also keep Yorke. Our potential second baseman of the future. To be perfectly honest, I wouldn't mind seeing both of those guys up there right now and I could care less about the mumble jumble about bringing anybody up too soon. Personally I would like to have a better reason to watch them then what they are selling most of the time. Everybody wants to crap on the starting pitching but I tend to tune in when Bello, Paxton, and Houck have the ball.

 

I agree with you 100%.

[dgalehouse]

If you need all of those then fine, but I don’t, and I just don’t go on BA either.

 

Hank Aaron was a lifetime .300 hitter with more than 700 home runs. But his xfmdoowops were very mediocre.

[moonslav59]

I agree with you 100%.

 

Hopefully, Whitlock will be added to the list of "must see" games.

 

It's too bad we couldn't be using Houck and Whitlock in the pen, this year, but it is what it is.

 

Even Houck's nice start vs the Yanks highlighted how great he is first time through, worse the second time, and usually awful the third time through, although he was not "awful" this time.

 

Houck 2023

.486 1st PA in G as SP (.498 career)

.837 2nd (.722 career)

.901 3rd (.944 career)

 

.516 first 25 pitches (.468 career)

.610 26-50 (.656 career)

.941 51-75 (.836 career)

 

He does not seem to be improving on his career numbers, tis year.

 

Whitlock 2023:

.849 1st PA (.691 career)

.512 2nd (.736 career)

.900 3rd (1.100 career)

 

.900 1-25 PAs (.643 career)

.535 26-50 (.581)

.673 51-75 (.800)

1.172 76-100 (1.059)

 

These numbers clearly show both should be RP'ers, perhaps worthy of going up to 18 batters.

 

Having a strong pen can help us by allowing us to yanke them, early, if needed, but that may take a heavy toll over the long term. With Crawford only going 3 IP, yikes!

 

Bello & Paxton, now have to go 7+, basically every start.

 

Maybe Pivetta earns another chance and can give us 7 IP per start, but I'm not holding my breath. (I've all but totally given up on Kluber, but baseball is full of miracle stories.)

 

[Old Red]

No one needs them all. But each one is more informative.

 

BA has the advantage of being familiar to even the most casual baseball fan, and so it will never go away. But popularity doesn’t equate to informative…

 

I’ve actually come off BA some through the years, and it depends on the batter. I think BA means more to a hitter like Arreaz than it does to someone like Schwaber, or even Raffy for that matter. Even though Raffy’s power numbers are good I think if his BA was up to where it usually is with him his power numbers would be even better. At any rate I’m personally content with the eye test, and the stats I do look at to know what’s going on.

[Bellhorn04]

No one needs them all. But each one is more informative.

 

BA has the advantage of being familiar to even the most casual baseball fan, and so it will never go away. But popularity doesn’t equate to informative…

 

A hitter's slash line is a thing.

[mvp 78]

I mentioned this the other day that Hank Aaron said his proudest accomplishment, which were many with his bat was his Batting Aveerage.

 

Good, back then that's what they used. The game has moved on. The players have too.

[Bellhorn04]

Good, back then that's what they used. The game has moved on. The players have too.

 

Batting average has not gone away. If Arraez challenges .400 it will be a big story. It was a big story when Cabrera won the Triple Crown.

[mvp 78]

I’ve actually come off BA some through the years, and it depends on the batter. I think BA means more to a hitter like Arreaz than it does to someone like Schwaber, or even Raffy for that matter. Even though Raffy’s power numbers are good I think if his BA was up to where it usually is with him his power numbers would be even better. At any rate I’m personally content with the eye test, and the stats I do look at to know what’s going on.

 

Yeah, because Arraez only has 1 HR and 1 SB, 15 in 450 G. His batting average is the one old school stat he can hang his hat on. He doesn't hit for lots of power, isn't fast and can't field for s***.

[Old Red]

Good, back then that's what they used. The game has moved on. The players have too.

 

It’s fine for me, and it’s fine that so many have a problem with that, but on the other hand I have no problem with anyone using any, and all stats they can come up with. I just don’t need them.

[Old Red]

Batting average has not gone away. If Arraez challenges .400 it will be a big story. It was a big story when Cabrera won the Triple Crown.

 

When Raffy comes up to bat, and they show all his stats up on the big message board I bet he would rather see his BA higher than its been in the 240+ range.

[dgalehouse]

It's the computer age, so folks are always going to be coming up with new stats/metrics to try and analyze everything. And many people do get much of their enjoyment of baseball in this way. The ballpark atmosphere is quite different. There, batting average, home runs and rbis are still in vogue. For pitchers, it is wins/losses, era and saves. There is a big difference between the ballpark experience and watching the game on TV or your tablet. Many of us now go the ballpark less and less frequently. Some don't go at all. Watching the game from home is what we do. And I think it affects how we enjoy the game and not necessarily for the better. I am personally not into all the analytics, but I do realize that they are here to stay. To each his own.

[Old Red]

It's the computer age, so folks are always going to be coming up with new stats/metrics to try and analyze everything. And many people do get much of their enjoyment of baseball in this way. The ballpark atmosphere is quite different. There, batting average, home runs and rbis are still in vogue. For pitchers, it is wins/losses, era and saves. There is a big difference between the ballpark experience and watching the game on TV or your tablet. Many of us now go the ballpark less and less frequently. Some don't go at all. Watching the game from home is what we do. And I think it affects how we enjoy the game and not necessarily for the better. I am personally not into all the analytics, but I do realize that they are here to stay. To each his own.

 

Well said, and I agree especially to each his own, but if I happen to mention eye test, or BA it sets off all kinds of bells, and whistles. Like I have said many times if you like, and need all of that analytics stuff fine, but I just don’t need it.

[moonslav59]

Good, back then that's what they used. The game has moved on. The players have too.

 

OPS is a simple stat and clearly tells a better story than BA, alone.

[notin]

A hitter's slash line is a thing.

 

Right. And it was created because BA wasn’t very telling…

Edited June 12, 2023 by notin

[notin]

Batting average has not gone away. If Arraez challenges .400 it will be a big story. It was a big story when Cabrera won the Triple Crown.

 

It was also a big story when Judge set the AL home run record. Not sure what your point is.

 

If you want to know something about a hitter, which stat tells you the least? BA? OBP? SLG? OPS?

[Bellhorn04]

Right. And it was created because BA want very telling…

 

Link please.