Xander Bogaerts has signed with San Diego Padres

[moonslav59]

There's a very fine line between blaming someone and making them responsible, so if you don't blame Bloom and you don't blame Henty who do you hold responsible for the current condition of the Sox? It seems like you're falling back on the adage that if it's everyone's fault then it's nobody's fault.

 

I don't feel the need to identify who is to blame when things don't go the way I want them to.

 

You want my take on who or what to blame? It's not going to be the guy they hired to trade Betts and Price and operate under a strict budget while getting no help but Houck from the farm. The guy told not to trade any top prospects and build up the farm over the ML team. Nope. Not him.

 

Feel free to blame Bloom, if you wish.

 

If I had to blame anyone or anything, I'd blame the greed of the filthy rich and the filthy rich owners of other teams that are having fun playing with their new shiny toy by buying up the best players at absurd prices. GREED.

 

I might blame JH's greed for not wanting to sacrifice some of his profits to spend like the other free-spending owners, but not in the same way some here seem to be doing- hoping he sells the team.

 

Blaming JH is like blaming capitalism for the Sox predicament. No going to do it. Sorry.

 

Feel free to blame the fall guy.

[moonslav59]

While I don't share your optimism for the future at the same time it needs to be remembered that for many of US (In spite of my being accused of feeling 'entitled') we don't NEED a WSC every year or even every decade as long as the teams are competitive and one of the best ways to remain competitive is by recognizing the market and playing top players what the market demands.

 

The Sox have done this, and have also spent more money than 2 out of three teams, even after the budget cuts following 2019. You wanted more. To me, that's feeling entitled.

 

I'm optimistic about our future because the farm is vastly improved and our budget is in better shape than it was in 2019. I think JH will spend big again, when the time is right.

 

Those who felt all was well in 2019 were kidding themselves. Our future looks brighter not than then, and to me, it's not even close.

 

Even teams that so pay high prices for the very best players need a foundation to win consistently. We lost that by 2019. We're trying to get that back, and it takes time.

 

Nobody has any patience, anymore. They want the best, and they want it now. If they don't get it- thrown blame and anger about.

 

You can choose pessimism and doom & gloom outlooks. Not me.

[Bellhorn04]

I guess if you don't count 2020, then losing 60 games of Betts was worth nothing.

 

We'd be WS champs had we gotten Graterol or Wil Myers.

 

2020 was just Bizarro World. Remember we didn't have to pay Price that year either. Then again the team lost a pile of money regardless, of course.

[moonslav59]

Even the much hated Yankees recognized that Judge was one of the core members of the team and was necessary for the team to remain COMPETITIVE and being competitive is what builds fan interest and puts fannies in the seats. So they swallowed hard and wrote a big check to Judge. Maybe that's a better model for the Red Sox than continually saying, "We should have handled that better" repeatedly. We'll see when we find out if attendance at Fenway continues to dwindle.

 

I'm glad they crippled their budget for years to come while not getting one bit better.

 

We can keep pretending JH can, should and will spend more and more, and believe it or not, Yankee fans are pissed they don't spend more, too, but paying B ogey $280M would have been the wrong thing to do.

 

We heard all this same stuff after Lester's fiasco, and then POW! We sign Price and trade for Sale, and bam.

 

To think JH will never do that again, needs some proof.

 

Maybe he won't ever go that large and long, again, but building a strong farm and paying several players big money, mostly on shorter deals, does have a record of working.

 

If the Astros can do it that way, maybe we can, too. They didn't buckle under and pay Springer, Cole, Correa and others. They did not get to where they are now, overnight. It takes patience- something severely lacking in today's society.

[Bellhorn04]

The Sox have done this, and have also spent more money than 2 out of three teams, even after the budget cuts following 2019. You wanted more. To me, that's feeling entitled.

 

I'm optimistic about our future because the farm is vastly improved and our budget is in better shape than it was in 2019. I think JH will spend big again, when the time is right.

 

Those who felt all was well in 2019 were kidding themselves. Our future looks brighter not than then, and to me, it's not even close.

 

Even teams that so pay high prices for the very best players need a foundation to win consistently. We lost that by 2019. We're trying to get that back, and it takes time.

 

Nobody has any patience, anymore. They want the best, and they want it now. If they don't get it- thrown blame and anger about.

 

You can choose pessimism and doom & gloom outlooks. Not me.

 

I must say, though, that fans who pay a lot of money to go to the games are in a different position than fans like me who don't spend much at all on baseball anymore. I think they have more of a right to gripe about paying big money to watch a season like 2022. And the prices going up for 2023.

[moonslav59]

Well, 2022 sucked and the FO handled it by raising ticket prices and talking about starting games 10 minutes earlier in 2023.

 

...and by preserving the farm growth and not extending players to contracts with the majority of their term post prime.

 

Quick, who was the last guy we signed or extended, where most years were past 31 or 32 years old?

 

Next question, look back at all the times we did extend players to mostly post prime years, and tell me how many worked out well.

 

It's not a dumb strategy to avoid these types of contracts.

 

How many of these types of large AND long contracts have these teams signed?

 

Astros

 

Braves

 

What's wrong with modeling our philosophy on what these two teams do, and then when the time is right, spend even more than they do?

[Bellhorn04]

moon, you are a true believer.

[Bellhorn04]

It's great to try to model yourself after a system that's working. But you still need to make smart decisions all along the way.

 

Bloom has done a pretty good job with the farm, no question. But we don't know yet if he's capable of making all those smart decisions. So it's not like there's any certainty here.

 

Dombrowski is indeed the virtual antithesis to Bloom. Dave goes for the prime cuts and pays top dollar. Now he has an owner who seems to really dig that approach. The Phillies made it to Game 6 of the Series this year, and added Trea Turner and some other pieces. He's an Old Schooler's dream. We'll see how it all plays out.

[Bellhorn04]

I'm glad they crippled their budget for years to come while not getting one bit better.

 

We're in no position to condemn the Yankees' management, I don't think. The Yankees are in a major drought championship-wise, but they make the playoffs every damn year, and they haven't finished below .500 since 1992. And they'll be one of the pre-season favorites to win it all this year.

[moonslav59]

2020 was just Bizarro World. Remember we didn't have to pay Price that year either. Then again the team lost a pile of money regardless, of course.

 

Verdugo looked pretty good, when we traded for him. Downs was a consensus top 100 prospect. The trade did not work out as we wished. I'm okay with blaming B loom for the return not for the trade, and I think including Price is often ignored or not factored in when people look at what we got. Reports show n othing much better was an option, so I'm done getting upset on that aspect.

 

I wish we'd kept Betts, but having that much money for 10 years does not mean all is lost. I'm over Betts. I'm more pissed about Lester, and that was years ago.

 

I'm not pissed over Bogey, either. Like Betts, I wish we still had him. I wished we'd locked him up long ago. I would not have paid what the Padres paid him. I think $200M/8 was too much for someone who does not play SS well and did not want to be moved off SS. They messed up the messaging, but I'm not convinced extending him was a lock good move. I doubt we ever could have gotten BorA$$ to accept $160M/6, but if the proves to be the case, I'll agree that was a big mistake, but I seriously doubt that- happened. Knowing BorA$$, he always wanted more.

 

It sucks watching out beloved players go, but winning wiped that slate clean, time after time in the past. This team has seen a lot of stars come and go, and many times it wasn't pretty. Much can be pinned on management and their willingness to throw players, managers and whoever under the bus, but many were smart business moves and the next cycle of winning made everyone seem okay with the rollercoaster ride.

 

We've been on a downturn for a long time and that was before losing Bogey, but I can see a brighter future. I can see many here don't care or don't want to see anything positive, right now. It's a choice.

 

The farm is much better, whether most Sox fans believe it or care about it. I do.

 

The 40 man roster depth is light years better than it was after 2019. We've sucked 2 of the last 3 years, so many Sox fans don't believe it or care about that. I do.

 

The budget is real and has been for the 20 years JH has been in charge. We don't go over the tax line more than 2 years in a row- ever. We reset often, and sometimes stay under for 2-3 years, at a time. It's the way it is- like it or not. I wish we spent more, but we dow when it really is needed, and we've cycled into WS rings every 3-5 years since JH took over. Many Sox fans don't like this and going on 5 years without a ring is not fun for any of us. Most fans could care less about the budget or tax line. I do, because it matters.

 

We can bang our heads on the wall and scream for the rich guy to spend more, but that's not me. He will, or he won't. I think he will when the foundation is set up to a point were a window of winnings looks probably not just possible.

 

I think JH learned from the DD era and is hoping to build a window longer than 3 years. I could be wrong, but I'm choosing optimism over doom & gloom.

 

[moonslav59]

moon, you are a true believer.

 

I don't believe we win a ring in 2023, even if we add Kluber, Andrus, Fulmer and trade for Luzardo. I'm not a playoff is a crapshoot type of guy. I think we'd make the playoffs with that team.

 

I think, as is, we are better than most here seem to think we will be, but we have a ways to go.

 

I was hoping this was the winter we made the big step, but it looks like they felt more building up was needed before the big "splurge."

 

I can wait. I'd like to see us win it all in 2023 just like everyone else, but I do think the path to sustained winning is making your farm and foundation strong and deep, then use free agency to fill just one or two gaps, here and there.

 

Maybe being so close to the Astros has clouded my judgement, but the last two rings have gone to teams that seem to have the same philosophy we are trying to establish.

 

I'm not a " believer" in the sense that I am sure we will pull it off, but I admire the effort and think it's a good plan. Ultimately, it will come down to how well these farm additions do. We thought Ben's farm was great, and it turned out trading them was better than keeping them, as many never cam close to what their rankings promised. Keeping all of them would not have won us a ring, IMO, but that does not mean we should trade this set in for a quick 3 year window, if we are lucky..

[moonslav59]

Dombrowski is indeed the virtual antithesis to Bloom. Dave goes for the prime cuts and pays top dollar. Now he has an owner who seems to really dig that approach. The Phillies made it to Game 6 of the Series this year, and added Trea Turner and some other pieces. He's an Old Schooler's dream. We'll see how it all plays out.

 

Let's say no bad blood ever happened between DD and Sox management, and he was kept as our GM, but told to cut the 2020 budget to the same level Bloom did. No mandate to trade Betts or Price, but a firm line on the budget. Then, for 2021, he's given about $40M to spend but no large and long deals allowed. He's give $60M for 2022, but again nothing larger or longer than the Story deal. Do we have a ring in 2020, 2021 or 2022? Do we have more wins? Do we have a farm anywhere near what we have, now?

 

I'm wondering, if he might have quit with the demands Bloom was given.

[moonslav59]

We're in no position to condemn the Yankees' management, I don't think. The Yankees are in a major drought championship-wise, but they make the playoffs every damn year, and they haven't finished below .500 since 1992. And they'll be one of the pre-season favorites to win it all this year.

 

I'm just saying I'm glad they signed him. I said it on the Yankee thread before and after the signing.

 

I'll take our last 20 years over the Yankees. They have had some perks, but give me 4 rings. Honestly, I'd take 4 rings and 16 last place finishes over what the Yanks have done the last 20 years. I'm not condemning them. I'm praising us.

 

We were in trouble before the Dodgers bailed us out with the Crawford salary dump.

 

We were in trouble once the Price decline was upon us and budget woes created by 2019.

 

Why do we keep thinking the solution is the same as what got us into trouble in the first place?

 

I'm not saying the Price signing wasn't worth it. We won a ring, so it's hard to say it was, for sure, but I think that contract, along with CC's and maybe a few others- like Sale, Pablo, HRam... has forced JH to rethink that method of building winners. It might not be a bad idea. MIGHT!

[S5Dewey]

The Sox have done this, and have also spent more money than 2 out of three teams, even after the budget cuts following 2019. You wanted more. To me, that's feeling entitled.

 

I'm optimistic about our future because the farm is vastly improved and our budget is in better shape than it was in 2019. I think JH will spend big again, when the time is right.

 

Those who felt all was well in 2019 were kidding themselves. Our future looks brighter not than then, and to me, it's not even close.

 

Even teams that so pay high prices for the very best players need a foundation to win consistently. We lost that by 2019. We're trying to get that back, and it takes time.

 

Nobody has any patience, anymore. They want the best, and they want it now. If they don't get it- thrown blame and anger about.

 

You can choose pessimism and doom & gloom outlooks. Not me.

 

Do you even read what I write? I'll say it again. I don't need a WSC every year or even every decade. What I want is an owner who will make the right decisions to make the team competitive and IMHO finishing last (behind Baltimore, for God's sake!) isn't being competitive. If you consider my wanting a team with one of the highest ticket prices in baseball to be competitive I can live with that.

 

I don't fault JH or Bloom for not spending enough money - I fault him/them for not spending it in the right places. If the only criteria for making you happy is how much money gets spent here's an offer for you to consider. Pay me $50MM and I'll come to Boston and play baseball. I'm not very good and we won't win many games but at least you can crow about how much money JH has spent.

 

As to what the Yankees paid Judge to "not make the team any better"...they won 99 games last year! What that money did was not make the Yankees worse and that's something the FO doesn't seem to understand - that losing great players makes your team worse.

When an owner's team finishes last he doesn't make the team worse unless he's either a) tanking, or willing to put an even worse team on the field thinking that the fans will still show up.

Edited December 26, 2022 by S5Dewey

[moonslav59]

Do you even read what I write? I'll say it again. I don't need a WSC every year or even every decade. What I want is an owner who will make the right decisions to make the team competitive and IMHO finishing last (behind Baltimore, for God's sake!) isn't being competitive. If you consider my wanting a team with one of the highest ticket prices in baseball to be competitive I can live with that.

 

I don't fault JH or Bloom for not spending enough money - I fault him/them for not spending it in the right places. If the only criteria for making you happy is how much money gets spent here's an offer for you to consider. Pay me $50MM and I'll come to Boston and play baseball. I'm not very good and we won't win many games but at least you can crow about how much money JH has spent.

 

As to what the Yankees paid Judge to "not make the team any better"...they won 99 games last year! What that money did was not make the Yankees worse and that's something the FO doesn't seem to understand - that losing great players makes your team worse.

When an owner's team finishes last he doesn't make the team worse unless he's either a) tanking, or willing to put an even worse team on the field thinking that the fans will still show up.

 

I read what you said.

 

I think we are building to become a better team than the Yanks.

 

You don't.

 

Fine. I'm not sure it works, but I prefer this approach than overspending on aging stars like Judge.

 

The thing is Judge will not keep them the same. He will decline while his hit on the fixed budget will not.

[moonslav59]

Largest Contracts in Sox History (4 Years of More Only

 

Red= Extension

 

$217M/7 Price

$160M/8 Manny

$154M/7 AGon

$145M/5 Sale

$142M/7 Crawford

$140M/6 Story

$120M/6 Bogaerts (opt out after 3)

$110M/5 JD

$110M/8 Pedroia

$95M/5 Pablo

$90M/5 Yoshida (+ posting fee)

$88M/4 HRam

$83M/4 Porcello

$83M/5 Lackey

$73M/4 Castillo

$70M/5 JD Drew

$68M/4 Eovaldi

$68M/4 Beckett

$52M/4 Papi

$52M/6 Dice-K (+ posting fee)

$41M/4 Youkilis

$41M/6 Pedroia

$40M/4 Renteria

$40M/4 VTek

$36M/4 Lugo

$31M/4 Damon

$30M/4 Buchholz

$30M/5 Lester

$26M/4 Offerman

$26M/4 Foulke

$19M/4 Whitlock

(We paid $63M+ to sign Moncada)

Edited December 26, 2022 by moonslav59

[moonslav59]

Largest Contracts in Sox History (4 Years of More Only

 

Red= Extension

 

$217M/7 Price

$160M/8 Manny

$154M/7 AGon

$145M/5 Sale

$142M/7 Crawford

$140M/6 Story

$120M/6 Bogaerts (opt out after 3)

$110M/5 JD

$110M/8 Pedroia

$95M/5 Pablo

$90M/5 Yoshida (+ posting fee)

$88M/4 HRam

$83M/4 Porcello

$83M/5 Lackey

$73M/4 Castillo

$70M/5 JD Drew

$68M/4 Eovaldi

$68M/4 Beckett

$52M/4 Papi

$52M/6 Dice-K (+ posting fee)

$41M/4 Youkilis

$41M/6 Pedroia

$40M/4 Renteria

$40M/4 VTek

$36M/4 Lugo

$31M/4 Damon

$30M/4 Buchholz

$30M/5 Lester

$26M/4 Offerman

$26M/4 Foulke

$19M/4 Whitlock

(We paid $63M+ to sign Moncada)

 

It's interesting to note that 4 of our top 8 contracts were extensions and 5 of our top 7 extensions were non homegrown players.

 

How many of these top signings were a clear success or even a partial one?

 

$217M/7 Price Partial, at best

$160M/8 Manny Clear Success, despite the bad ending

$154M/7 AGon Partial, but did not really do great over the 7 years (118 OPS+).

$145M/5 Sale Disaster

$142M/7 Crawford Disaster

$140M/6 Story TBD

$120M/6 Bogaerts (opt out after 3) Clear Success

$110M/5 JD Clear Success, despite a couple down times.

$110M/8 Pedroia Disaster due to injury

$95M/5 Pablo Disaster

$90M/5 Yoshida (+ posting fee) TBD

$88M/4 HRam Disaster

$83M/4 Porcello Partial

$83M/5 Lackey Good, despite 2 iffy seasons

$73M/4 Castillo Disaster

$70M/5 JD Drew Clear

$68M/4 Eovaldi Clear

$68M/4 Beckett Clear

$52M/4 Papi Clear

$52M/6 Dice-K (+ posting fee) Partial, at best

$41M/4 Youkilis One great yr/one good/2 bad

$41M/6 Pedroia Clear

$40M/4 Renteria Disaster

$40M/4 VTek Clear

$36M/4 Lugo Partial, at best

$31M/4 Damon Clear

$30M/4 Buchholz Partial, at best

$30M/5 Lester Clear

$26M/4 Offerman Id say no

$26M/4 Foulke One key year- partial

 

I count about...

9-10 successes

9-10 partial successes

2 TBD

8 Bad to disasters

 

Basically 19-8- about a 70% success rate, but the top 5 are about 50-50.

Edited December 26, 2022 by moonslav59

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Largest Contracts in Sox History (4 Years of More Only

 

Red= Extension

 

$217M/7 Price

$160M/8 Manny

$154M/7 AGon

$145M/5 Sale

$142M/7 Crawford

$140M/6 Story

$120M/6 Bogaerts (opt out after 3)

$110M/5 JD

$110M/8 Pedroia

$95M/5 Pablo

$90M/5 Yoshida (+ posting fee)

$88M/4 HRam

$83M/4 Porcello

$83M/5 Lackey

$73M/4 Castillo

$70M/5 JD Drew

$68M/4 Eovaldi

$68M/4 Beckett

$52M/4 Papi

$52M/6 Dice-K (+ posting fee)

$41M/4 Youkilis

$41M/6 Pedroia

$40M/4 Renteria

$40M/4 VTek

$36M/4 Lugo

$31M/4 Damon

$30M/4 Buchholz

$30M/5 Lester

$26M/4 Offerman

$26M/4 Foulke

$19M/4 Whitlock

(We paid $63M+ to sign Moncada)

 

Thorough list. It's interesting to see how few homegrown players have been extended for market money by the Red Sox: only two of the team's top 20 this century -- Bogaerts and Pedroia. Is it coincidence that both signed what many considered hometown discounts?

 

It's also an indictment on the franchise that the highest paid homegrown pitcher this century is still Clay Buchholz, whose $30M for four years only equates to a $7.5M AAV... which means Boston's all-time best-paid homegrown arm... with an AAV of $9.375M... is Matt Barnes.

[Old Red]

I don't feel the need to identify who is to blame when things don't go the way I want them to.

 

You want my take on who or what to blame? It's not going to be the guy they hired to trade Betts and Price and operate under a strict budget while getting no help but Houck from the farm. The guy told not to trade any top prospects and build up the farm over the ML team. Nope. Not him.

 

Feel free to blame Bloom, if you wish.

 

If I had to blame anyone or anything, I'd blame the greed of the filthy rich and the filthy rich owners of other teams that are having fun playing with their new shiny toy by buying up the best players at absurd prices. GREED.

 

I might blame JH's greed for not wanting to sacrifice some of his profits to spend like the other free-spending owners, but not in the same way some here seem to be doing- hoping he sells the team.

 

Blaming JH is like blaming capitalism for the Sox predicament. No going to do it. Sorry.

 

Feel free to blame the fall guy.

 

If I had a $ for every time I’ve heard Bloom was hired to trade Betts, so he is not to blame, and operate under a strict budget, so he is not to blame, and get no help from the farm, so he is not to blame I would have had enough money to pay Bogey’s SD salary. While all those things may be true that in no way takes the blame away from Bloom for the state of the Red Sox as a losing, non competitive team. Bloom has sat around for 3 years, and did nothing about the Bogey, and Raffy contract situations, and no i don’t want to hear about the non competitive contract offers he has made. Bloom traded away a 96 RBI man with 2 arb years left for someone who couldn’t hit his weight, and had to be released. Not to mention he was more expensive. Bloom sat around for at least two months, and did nothing about the circus at 1B, and CF that cost the team more than just embarrassment. The trade deadline comes, and Bloom twiddled, and diddled, and stayed above the dreaded lux tax. The more I hear Bloom isn’t to blame the more I Blame him, because to me he is to blame, because he is the one in charge. I for one don’t want a 1 yr rebuild let alone anything longer than that. The farm is higher ranked, so great for that, but who does the team have left to build around? Story? Yoshida? Bogey, Mookie, and Raffy should be the ones built around, but looks like all will be gone, and hopefully all come back to haunt the Red Sox for the rest of their careers.

[Bellhorn04]

It's interesting to note that 4 of our top 8 contracts were extensions and 5 of our top 7 extensions were non homegrown players.

 

How many of these top signings were a clear success or even a partial one?

 

$217M/7 Price Partial, at best

$160M/8 Manny Clear Success, despite the bad ending

$154M/7 AGon Partial, but did not really do great over the 7 years (118 OPS+).

$145M/5 Sale Disaster

$142M/7 Crawford Disaster

$140M/6 Story TBD

$120M/6 Bogaerts (opt out after 3) Clear Success

$110M/5 JD Clear Success, despite a couple down times.

$110M/8 Pedroia Disaster due to injury

$95M/5 Pablo Disaster

$90M/5 Yoshida (+ posting fee) TBD

$88M/4 HRam Disaster

$83M/4 Porcello Partial

$83M/5 Lackey Good, despite 2 iffy seasons

$73M/4 Castillo Disaster

$70M/5 JD Drew Clear

$68M/4 Eovaldi Clear

$68M/4 Beckett Clear

$52M/4 Papi Clear

$52M/6 Dice-K (+ posting fee) Partial, at best

$41M/4 Youkilis One great yr/one good/2 bad

$41M/6 Pedroia Clear

$40M/4 Renteria Disaster

$40M/4 VTek Clear

$36M/4 Lugo Partial, at best

$31M/4 Damon Clear

$30M/4 Buchholz Partial, at best

$30M/5 Lester Clear

$26M/4 Offerman Id say no

$26M/4 Foulke One key year- partial

 

I count about...

9-10 successes

9-10 partial successes

2 TBD

8 Bad to disasters

 

Basically 19-8- about a 70% success rate, but the top 5 are about 50-50.

 

Still a lot higher than the success rate of prospects...

[moonslav59]

Thorough list. It's interesting to see how few homegrown players have been extended for market money by the Red Sox: only two of the team's top 20 this century -- Bogaerts and Pedroia. Is it coincidence that both signed what many considered hometown discounts?

 

It's also an indictment on the franchise that the highest paid homegrown pitcher this century is still Clay Buchholz, whose $30M for four years only equates to a $7.5M AAV... which means Boston's all-time best-paid homegrown arm... with an AAV of $9.375M... is Matt Barnes.

 

Yes, interesting points. Inflation would adjust some of those contracts higher, but still...

 

Also, Lester's 5 year deal was the longest given to a homegrown pitcher.

 

The Manny deal was not under JH, so the deals listed by length are...

 

8 Pedroia

7 Price, AGon, Crawford

How many of these were resounding successes?

 

6 Story, Dice K, Pedroia

 

It looks like the long part of "large and long" is what we might be shying away from, of late.

 

[moonslav59]

If I had a $ for every time I’ve heard Bloom was hired to trade Betts, so he is not to blame, and operate under a strict budget, so he is not to blame, and get no help from the farm, so he is not to blame I would have had enough money to pay Bogey’s SD salary. While all those things may be true that in no way takes the blame away from Bloom for the state of the Red Sox as a losing, non competitive team. Bloom has sat around for 3 years, and did nothing about the Bogey, and Raffy contract situations, and no i don’t want to hear about the non competitive contract offers he has made. Bloom traded away a 96 RBI man with 2 arb years left for someone who couldn’t hit his weight, and had to be released. Not to mention he was more expensive. Bloom sat around for at least two months, and did nothing about the circus at 1B, and CF that cost the team more than just embarrassment. The trade deadline comes, and Bloom twiddled, and diddled, and stayed above the dreaded lux tax. The more I hear Bloom isn’t to blame the more I Blame him, because to me he is to blame, because he is the one in charge. I for one don’t want a 1 yr rebuild let alone anything longer than that. The farm is higher ranked, so great for that, but who does the team have left to build around? Story? Yoshida? Bogey, Mookie, and Raffy should be the ones built around, but looks like all will be gone, and hopefully all come back to haunt the Red Sox for the rest of their careers.

 

Misplaced blame galore. No doubt, Bloom made several mistakes, a few of them big ones.

 

It all comes down to what we expected 3 years ago. You expected a miracle and are sorely disappointed one did not happen. You can ignore all the factors that led us to thin place in Sox history all you want, but they don't go away. Sure, we can dream about not making the Renfroe trade and maybe a few other moves where Bloom spent $10M or less and horrors of horrors, they guys did not play like all stars. Man he sucks!

 

What's left to build around? A farm. That's where all these guys like Betts, Bogey, Devers and Lester came from. Whose fault is it the only guy we can build around, now, is Houck? Blooms? Maybe his biggest 3 failures are Renfroe, Richards at $10M and Perez at $7M. Sure blame that over $217M Price, $145M Sale and the farm that gave us Houck in 5 years. Makes total sense.

 

There is plenty of blame to go around, if you want to wallow in it. Carry on: you do it well.

[moonslav59]

Still a lot higher than the success rate of prospects...

 

Except the oh for 4 on 7+ year deals- the kinds everyone wanted for Betts & Bogey.

 

If you can pinpoint one thing that led to this down time- post Theo, it might not be the albatross contracts of Crawford, Pablito, HRam, Price and Sale, but rather the lack of stars produced by the farm. Correct me, if I'm wrong but the most recent star our farm has produced was Devers, signed in 2013 under Ben. Bogey, Betts and Lester were from the Theo era.

 

So, let's blame the current GM for not extending these stars and not the problem of us not adding a stud prospect in 10 years. Yeah, that makes total sense. (not you, Bell.)

 

Instead, let's poo-poo the attempt at rebuilding the farm.

[notin]

Except the oh for 4 on 7+ year deals- the kinds everyone wanted for Betts & Bogey.

 

If you can pinpoint one thing that led to this down time- post Theo, it might not be the albatross contracts of Crawford, Pablito, HRam, Price and Sale, but rather the lack of stars produced by the farm. Correct me, if I'm wrong but the most recent star our farm has produced was Devers, signed in 2013 under Ben. Bogey, Betts and Lester were from the Theo era.

 

So, let's blame the current GM for not extending these stars and not the problem of us not adding a stud prospect in 10 years. Yeah, that makes total sense. (not you, Bell.)

 

Instead, let's poo-poo the attempt at rebuilding the farm.

 

If you have the farm producing minimum wage talent - even if they’re not call Stars - it gets a lot easier to carry those albatross contracts.

 

So the questions now are - are the Sox going to wait until they have the farm before they take on albatross contracts again? Are they just going to eschew them forever? Maybe reserve bigger deals for their own pre-arb players?

 

If so, it gets easier to answer questions about the remainder of the off-season…

[moonslav59]

If you have the farm producing minimum wage talent - even if they’re not call Stars - it gets a lot easier to carry those albatross contracts.

 

So the questions now are - are the Sox going to wait until they have the farm before they take on albatross contracts again? Are they just going to eschew them forever? Maybe reserve bigger deals for their own pre-arb players?

 

If so, it gets easier to answer questions about the remainder of the off-season…

 

I think we may just go with 5-6 year deal max for a while, even if that means missing out on the best of the best. I'm not sure it's such a bad strategy.

 

I do think we need to start locking up our younger players, and even if some don't work out, they won't be $217M/7 year mistakes.

 

I, too, play the blame game. I'm not saying I don't, but how about giving some credit to upper management for seeing that the first priority is to build up the farm to a level we haven't see since Theo's era. We may never reach those levels, again, due to all the rule changes, but I'm glad the realized it needed to be fixed and are at least trying to do something about it.

 

Maybe Bello, Mayer and Casas can become the next Lester, Betts and Bogeys, but even if they fall short or way short, we had to try.

 

No way we win without a bunch of farm help. Ever.

[Bellhorn04]

So, let's blame the current GM for not extending these stars and not the problem of us not adding a stud prospect in 10 years. Yeah, that makes total sense. (not you, Bell.)

 

Instead, let's poo-poo the attempt at rebuilding the farm.

 

It's two separate things. Failure to add stud prospects is a big problem, but failure to retain stars is arguably just as big or bigger.

 

Part of the Astros' brilliant approach has been the deals with Altuve, Bregman and Alvarez.

Edited December 26, 2022 by Bellhorn04

[Bellhorn04]

No way we win without a bunch of farm help. Ever.

 

The 2004 and 2013 teams were largely built on veterans and acquisitions by free agency and trade. Not a lot of homegrown youth on those rosters.

 

There are always different ways to succeed.

[moonslav59]

It's two separate things. Failure to add stud prospects is a big problem, but failure to retain stars is arguably just as big or bigger.

 

Part of the Astros' brilliant approach has been the deals with Altuve, Bregman and Alvarez.

 

But, they had 6-7 studs from their farm, and could afford to let Springer and Correa bolt.

 

Their current rotation is all homegrown and is one of the best and could keep getting better as they all reach prime.

[moonslav59]

The 2004 and 2013 teams were largely built on veterans and acquisitions by free agency and trade. Not a lot of homegrown youth on those rosters.

 

There are always different ways to succeed.

 

True. Never say "Never" or "Ever."

 

That 2004 team was nearly all constructed by trades and FA signings, several by Dan D before Theo arrived.

 

VTek wasn't "homegrown," but he was a prospect when we traded for him and D Lowe who had like 50 IP in MLB, when we got him via trade.

 

The 2013 team did have Lester , Doubront and Buch as 60% of our rotation plus, Pedey, Jake and Middlebrooks/Bogey at 3B and Nava being keys to winning.

 

I just can't see us winning again by adding Houck every 5 years.

 

[notin]

The 2004 and 2013 teams were largely built on veterans and acquisitions by free agency and trade. Not a lot of homegrown youth on those rosters.

 

There are always different ways to succeed.

 

 

Yes, short term.

 

The 2013 team was built through free agency, but that success didn’t even come close to casting over into 2014 and 2015…