Xander Bogaerts has signed with San Diego Padres

[moonslav59]

My bad, I thought you were implying the players were the greedy ones.

 

I don't blame players, who most come from low or modest backgrounds for seeking the most they can.

 

I do wonder why so many seem shocked that someone like JH just wants to keep making more and more money. It's the way of our world, but for some reason, if it denies us our enjoyment in sport, he's the evil, greedy bastard, while we look up to many rich guys.

 

Henry spent enough to get us 4 rings, so it's hard for me to get pissed at him,

 

It's other cities' time, now, I guess.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I don't blame players, who most come from low or modest backgrounds for seeking the most they can.

 

I do wonder why so many seem shocked that someone like JH just wants to keep making more and more money. It's the way of our world, but for some reason, if it denies us our enjoyment in sport, he's the evil, greedy bastard, while we look up to many rich guys.

 

Henry spent enough to get us 4 rings, so it's hard for me to get pissed at him,

 

 

Would it be easier to understand if you were a season ticket holder or just a parent who wants to take the family to one overpriced game at Fenway?

 

The Red Sox are the joke of the industry right now. Beat reporters, local columnists, national reporters and talking heads aren't spending as much time wondering WTF is happening in Boston. Instead, they are just lambasting Bloom, Kennedy, and especially the AWOL and MIA owners.

 

Any tired old metaphor can be used to explain the feelings in Red Sox Nation right now. Fond memories of great times. But it's not the same anymore.

[Bellhorn04]

I don't blame players, who most come from low or modest backgrounds for seeking the most they can.

 

I do wonder why so many seem shocked that someone like JH just wants to keep making more and more money. It's the way of our world, but for some reason, if it denies us our enjoyment in sport, he's the evil, greedy bastard, while we look up to many rich guys.

 

In my opinion, the biggest gripe Red Sox fans have about ownership right now isn't greed. It's incompetence. It's okay to make money when you're providing a good product.

[jacksonianmarch]

It’s pretty clear the Sox are embracing a rebuild.

[S5Dewey]

It’s pretty clear the Sox are embracing a rebuild.

 

I don't think the Sox have a plan other than not spending money and seeing what happens. When a team "rebuilds" they rebuild around certain players and unless the plan is to rebuild around their "Superstar SS who's never played above A-Ball" I don't see much there to rebuild around.

 

Of course there's always the possibility that they're banking on those two last place finishes to help them rebuild the farm through the first round draft picks.

[Bellhorn04]

It’s pretty clear the Sox are embracing a rebuild.

 

And we're aware of that, but the Red Sox front office knew the only way Sox fans would accept a rebuild is if they were also trying to compete at the same time, so that's exactly what they promised to do.

 

This offseason has been nothing short of bewildering. Where is that starting pitcher Bloom promised, the one with leadership, upside and innings? If he doesn't produce one, he looks like a ******** artist, an incompetent, or both. Red Sox fans don't forget when you say things like that.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

And we're aware of that, but the Red Sox front office knew the only way Sox fans would accept a rebuild is if they were also trying to compete at the same time, so that's exactly what they promised to do.

 

This offseason has been nothing short of bewildering. Where is that starting pitcher Bloom promised, the one with leadership, upside and innings? If he doesn't produce one, he looks like a ******** artist, an incompetent, or both. Red Sox fans don't forget when you say things like that.

 

At least Bloom admitted he's full of crap when he said he won't be judged on his words, but his actions.

 

The action Red Sox fans have seen for four offseasons now are a lot of inaction. Bloom's deliberate style is to wait as long as possible to make moves, and often it is too long (incompetently... or intentionally?)... waiting until all the best star free agents are signed, then picking through the leftovers; waiting until the last seconds of the trade deadline, when all the expensive pieces are gone.

 

And Sox fans don't really need reminders of the exceptions, like when he jumped on Arauz in the Rule 5 draft, or signed Joely in the first week of free agency... because fans really don't care about the depth Bloom is building with replacement players for the bench or in the minors. Don't even remind us of the good additions -- like Renfroe, Schwarber, Wacha and Strahm -- that he didn't bother to bring back.

 

Not when the New York teams and almost all the clubs out West are stockpiling all the star players available. Especially our own...

[notin]

And we're aware of that, but the Red Sox front office knew the only way Sox fans would accept a rebuild is if they were also trying to compete at the same time, so that's exactly what they promised to do.

 

This offseason has been nothing short of bewildering. Where is that starting pitcher Bloom promised, the one with leadership, upside and innings? If he doesn't produce one, he looks like a ******** artist, an incompetent, or both. Red Sox fans don't forget when you say things like that.

 

Still worth pointing out, still December.

 

Certainly having one already would be nice, but despite what many fans want, there’s no reward for finishing the roster early and no penalty for waiting until after New Year’s.

 

I’m hoping this latest delay in moves is because the Sox are negotiating with Devers. But who knows? The one thing we do know is the free agent market is far from dried up. And the trade market, especially with the way the free agent market has been going, could be even more robust.

 

Granted, the clock is ticking. We are now what? Six or seven weeks until pitchers and catchers report?

[moonslav59]

Would it be easier to understand if you were a season ticket holder or just a parent who wants to take the family to one overpriced game at Fenway?

 

The Red Sox are the joke of the industry right now. Beat reporters, local columnists, national reporters and talking heads aren't spending as much time wondering WTF is happening in Boston. Instead, they are just lambasting Bloom, Kennedy, and especially the AWOL and MIA owners.

 

Any tired old metaphor can be used to explain the feelings in Red Sox Nation right now. Fond memories of great times. But it's not the same anymore.

 

Why is it different now than after the Fisk, Lynn, Burleson, Hobson, Tiant, Lee and many others purge over 40 years ago?

 

I'm not trying to sugar coat where we are, right now, in terms of going for a ring in 2023 or maybe even 2024, but the team had some serious issues 3-4 years ago. Many of us knew it and saw what was coming. With the new rules in place making it harder to get great draft picks late in the first round and even the second round, because you could give out mega bonuses. Penalties for spending more affect your draft.

 

The plan had to be to build up the farm, and that is very hard to do, while winning. That's not to say we lost on purpose, except for maybe 2020, but not really sucking makes it harder to b uild the fam quickly and deeply.

 

Did anyone really expect Bloom to not only get us to a top 5 farm but to already be seeing Bloom farm infusions in 3 short years, including one season where doing well hurt our draft positioning? In some ways, it's a miracle that DD's farm turned out better than just about anyone expected and we may see Casas, Bello and maybe a couple others add some serious value we have not seen in 5 years.

 

I realize none of this helps the fan paying big bucks to go watch the team in 2 of the last 3 years and 2023 looks to make that 3 of 4, but we've gone through longer droughts than this, and the fanbase kept cheering for our Sox. Maybe, we got spoiled by all the rings. Maybe patience is no longer something anyone cares ab out, anymore.

 

I think there will be a lot of exciting things to watch in 2023- win or lose. That's minimizing the frustration I am feeling about this winter that I expected to be the turning point, but I'm not going to choose "doom & gloom." I like the direction our long term future is heading. I wish and think JH should spend more, but I'm not going to get angry about it.

[moonslav59]

In my opinion, the biggest gripe Red Sox fans have about ownership right now isn't greed. It's incompetence. It's okay to make money when you're providing a good product.

 

What GM can juggle building up a farm, extreme budget cutting and the decline of returning vets- not to mention getting nothing from your highest paid player in 3 years?

 

We should have won more than we did in 2022, no doubt. A perfect storm- the opposite of whatw e saw in 2021- occurred.

 

The lost hope of Jeter Downs, getting nothing for Bogey, the JBJ trade, the 3 years of getting nothing from Sale, our highest paid player by AAV and not finding enough gems in the rough brought us to where we are, today.

 

Certainly JH's refusal to go large and long on anyone, including our own stars has been a major factor in the state of the 26 man roster. I'm really not sure, under the circumstances JH set, how we could really expect much better. Better, yes, but how much better?

 

You can't spend $40M on 12 players and expect great things, year one, especially with virtually no help from the farm- not just in year one but the two prior and two afterwards.

 

You can't spend $40M on 8 players in year two, and expect great things.

 

You can't spend $60M on 7 players year three and expect a ring.

 

We knew the farm would not be a help for 4-5 years. We knew the only real way to win "along the way" was to spend and spend while also finding great bargains, which is what we expected and hoped Bloom would do. He's found quite a few, but not enough. I'm not sure incompetence is the word I'd choose, given what he was handed.

 

I'm holding out hope, JH is just waiting to time a spending "pounce," but as Tom Petty would say, "The waiting is the hardest part."

[moonslav59]

It’s pretty clear the Sox are embracing a rebuild.

 

If they just came out and said it, maybe it would give fans more faith than the crap they keep spewing.

 

I'm not really sure they were blatantly lying about "trying to stay competitive" all these last 2 years. They did pretty good one year, and the confluence of injuries and downturns by too many vets might have been more of the reason we failed to make the playoffs than a flawed plan or incompetence.

 

The fact that the best prospect we have traded in 4 years, yes including DD's final year, has been Aldo Ramirez is the biggest clue to what the plan has benn since 2019. Winning now has been a lower priority, even if not verbalized by management. It's obvious.

 

The farm has grown by leaps and bounds, and thanks to some pleasant surprises by DD's prospects, we should start seeing some serious results, this year with a mix of DD and Bloom guys coming up in following years.

 

Seriously, you need to establish a steady flow of prospects before you set your window. I'm not saying a Bogey or Devers extension interferes with this idea, as the window was not supposed to be 2027-2030- past prime for Bogey and a little for Devers, too. It's not total stupidity or incompetence to think it's better to wait on spending for big ticket items, until you have the pipeline stablished and have a better idea of what slots need attention from outside the system.

 

It's easy to say, "Getting pitching is never a bad idea," but in now way do I see any of this year's FA SP signings as one I think would overlap whatever years the planned "window" is.

 

The other big clue is the massive amount of one year deals, with 2 year deals far exceeding longers one, as well. Rebuild- yup!

 

Telling your GM to trade Betts & Price and not replace Porcello, too, as well as letting Kimbrel, Kelly and others go before you even took over as GM and saying "Here's $40M- go and replace 12 players and create a winning team" is preposterous.

 

I do think we had hopes at making the playoffs in 2021 and 2022, if almost everything went right. I'm not sure the whole "stay competitive" thing was a lie. They actually thought we could, and so did I, each of the last 2 Marches. To be a lie, there needs to be intent to deceive.

 

This winter looks like it could be a "lie," but there is still time to acquire a pitcher via trade or maybe hope Kluber and or Nate can give us one year, and find a middle IF'er and maybe another piece to give us faint hopes of a WC berth, and hey, most ehre think the playoffs are a crapshoot...

[moonslav59]

Still worth pointing out, still December.

 

Certainly having one already would be nice, but despite what many fans want, there’s no reward for finishing the roster early and no penalty for waiting until after New Year’s.

 

I’m hoping this latest delay in moves is because the Sox are negotiating with Devers. But who knows? The one thing we do know is the free agent market is far from dried up. And the trade market, especially with the way the free agent market has been going, could be even more robust.

 

Granted, the clock is ticking. We are now what? Six or seven weeks until pitchers and catchers report?

 

The FA market is dried up of high impact hopefuls. The best we could maybe do is Kluber, Andrus and Fulmer, which wouldn't look bad, but IMO would still leave us short of what I hoped for. It would take us going 3 for 3 on those FA signings, and so far, we are like 3 for 50 PLUS trading for a solid SP'er for me to think, "well done." (Then, who are we trading to get that solid pitcher?)

[Bellhorn04]

Still worth pointing out, still December.

 

Certainly having one already would be nice, but despite what many fans want, there’s no reward for finishing the roster early and no penalty for waiting until after New Year’s.

 

I’m hoping this latest delay in moves is because the Sox are negotiating with Devers. But who knows? The one thing we do know is the free agent market is far from dried up. And the trade market, especially with the way the free agent market has been going, could be even more robust.

 

Granted, the clock is ticking. We are now what? Six or seven weeks until pitchers and catchers report?

 

It's not about the clock ticking any more. It's about the shelves being almost empty.

[Bellhorn04]

What GM can juggle building up a farm, extreme budget cutting and the decline of returning vets- not to mention getting nothing from your highest paid player in 3 years?

 

moon, I said ownership, and you started right back in on Bloom. Please read a little more carefully.

[moonslav59]

It's not about the clock ticking any more. It's about the shelves being almost empty.

 

Yup.

 

Nobody was talking Kluber and Andrus even 2 weeks ago. Now, we are acting like they are saviors.

 

This team has not traded a top prospect, other than #8 Aldo Ramirez since #5 Jalen Beeks was traded for Nate in the summer of 2018.

 

I'm not sure they think the timing is right to break this streak. (I do, as long as we get someone with 4+ years of team control.)

[Bellhorn04]

Yup.

 

Nobody was talking Kluber and Andrus even 2 weeks ago. Now, we are acting like they are saviors.

 

No we're not acting like they're saviors. Nice hyperbole LOL. They just give us more of a fighting chance.

[moonslav59]

moon, I said ownership, and you started right back in on Bloom. Please read a little more carefully.

 

Ownership is choosing greed and building for the future. That's why they hired Bloom.

 

I don't see it as incompetence, just because they are choosing the long game over the short one.

 

I think we had a legitimate chance at making the playoffs after the Story signing in March. I think most here did. Now, because we sucked, we were all wrong, too, but calling it incompetence, when most of us felt we were "competitive" seems a bit over the top.

 

If you are talking about the Bogey situation, I can understand how the word incompetence can be used. I, too, think they could have handled it differently and grossly misjudged the market explosion, but again, I don't think they ever wanted to pay Bogey the market price at any point on the timeline. Even now, they would not give Bogey $225M/8, IMO. They should have traded him after signing Story, at the latest.

 

He'd have waived his no trade clause, if they told him Story was going to play SS.

 

[Bellhorn04]

Ownership is choosing greed and building for the future. That's why they hired Bloom.

 

I don't see it as incompetence, just because they are choosing the long game over the short one.

 

I think we had a legitimate chance at making the playoffs after the Story signing in March. I think most here did. Now, because we sucked, we were all wrong, too, but calling it incompetence, when most of us felt we were "competitive" seems a bit over the top.

 

If you are talking about the Bogey situation, I can understand how the word incompetence can be used. I, too, think they could have handled it differently and grossly misjudged the market explosion, but again, I don't think they ever wanted to pay Bogey the market price at any point on the timeline. Even now, they would not give Bogey $225M/8, IMO. They should have traded him after signing Story, at the latest.

 

He'd have waived his no trade clause, if they told him Story was going to play SS.

 

 

It's the offseason we're going through right now that feels like incompetence. This was supposed to be the flashpoint, remember? Instead we're all scratching our heads.

[notin]

It's not about the clock ticking any more. It's about the shelves being almost empty.

 

Yes if the off-season is solely about free agency.

 

The CF free agent market was supposed to be Judge, Nimmo and guesswork. But Toronto did well on that market…

[moonslav59]

No we're not acting like they're saviors. Nice hyperbole LOL. They just give us more of a fighting chance.

 

They would salvage the off season to some degree, but I expected so much more, this winter. Granted, with the prices the big FA signed for, the wish list could never have met my expectations, without us going over the tax line, which I felt was never going to happen.

 

I was hoping we added 4-5 kept players for $80M and not 6-7 at $40M, which is what we've spent, so far in AAV. Adding these 2 more players at maybe $25M AAV combined makes it 8 players at $65M (Yoshida, Turner, Andrus, Kluber, Jansen, Martin, Joely & Mills.)

[Bellhorn04]

As for Bogaerts, it's the insistence that he was their "No. 1 Priority" this offseason that has made them look ridiculous.

 

As I've said, their PR really sucks lately.

[Bellhorn04]

Yes if the off-season is solely about free agency.

 

The CF free agent market was supposed to be Judge, Nimmo and guesswork. But Toronto did well on that market…

 

It's the starting pitching I'm talking about. We're down to Eovaldi, Kluber, or a big trade.

[Bellhorn04]

If you are talking about the Bogey situation, I can understand how the word incompetence can be used. I, too, think they could have handled it differently and grossly misjudged the market explosion, but again, I don't think they ever wanted to pay Bogey the market price at any point on the timeline. Even now, they would not give Bogey $225M/8, IMO. They should have traded him after signing Story, at the latest.

 

He'd have waived his no trade clause, if they told him Story was going to play SS.

 

 

Maybe they should've extended Bogey and not signed Story. Now there's a radical idea.

[moonslav59]

As for Bogaerts, it's the insistence that he was their "No. 1 Priority" this offseason that has made them look ridiculous.

 

As I've said, their PR really sucks lately.

 

It does, but you know he really might have been. They just never foresaw a $280M offer- not many of us did, and now in hindsight, we all scream coulda-shoulda.

[notin]

It's the starting pitching I'm talking about. We're down to Eovaldi, Kluber, or a big trade.

 

Ok.

 

So there are options.

 

Also, why not Zack Greinke (ERA+ 111)? Or Zach Davies, who is just a hair behind Zach Eflin on the Baseball’s Best Zachary’s List?

[moonslav59]

Maybe they should've extended Bogey and not signed Story. Now there's a radical idea.

 

Let's see how both contracts work out, even assuming Story at $140M/6 and Bogey at $160M/6, which we don't know he'd ever have taken.

 

It's not a radical idea, but it's not a slam dunk choice, either.

[Bellhorn04]

It does, but you know he really might have been. They just never foresaw a $280M offer- not many of us did, and now in hindsight, we all scream coulda-shoulda.

 

Why should we give them a pass for not seeing where things were going? That's incompetence personified.

[moonslav59]

Why should we give them a pass for not seeing where things were going? That's incompetence personified.

 

I'm fine with blaming them for not foreseeing an uptick in the market for high end players. I'm not sure any GM foresaw this much, but I agree.

 

My point is that it's not incompetence if they never felt Bogey was worth any market prices as the timeline raised that "market value," including one last big spurt.

 

We can judge later if paying Bogey $180M/7 or $225M/8 would have been a good or not or "better than" the Story signing.

 

Even if they knew Bogey would eventually get $225M/8, they may still have felt he was and still is not worth even that, let alone $280M. We cannot say for sure that position is incompetence. Not trading him, if we knew this to be, earlier, is where I think the biggest mistake was made, but that just my opinion.

 

They did feel Yoshida, Jansen, Martin and Turner were worth more than what other GMs felt they were, so let's see how incompetent they were/are.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Why is it different now than after the Fisk, Lynn, Burleson, Hobson, Tiant, Lee and many others purge over 40 years ago?

 

 

Those Red Sox teams from the 1980s were different because even though they lost stars, they still paid to keep some of their best homegrown players -- Jim Rice and Dwight Evans -- not to mention icon Carl Yastrzemski, who played his entire career in Boston through '83.

 

They bottomed out winning 78 games in 1983 (not last place, though 6th out 7)... then were back in the World Series in three years, and won three division in five seasons.

 

Pitching, developed from drafting and the minors, was key. But the Sox still swung some solid trades -- not with prospects, but big leaguers (Eck for Buckner, Ojeda for Schiraldi, Lansford for Armas, Mike Brown and parts for Hendu and Spike Owen).

[S5Dewey]

I'm fine with blaming them for not foreseeing an uptick in the market for high end players. I'm not sure any GM foresaw this much, but I agree.

 

My point is that it's not incompetence if they never felt Bogey was worth any market prices as the timeline raised that "market value," including one last big spurt.

.

 

Don't your shoulders get tired from carrying all that water for the Sox FO?

 

First of all, you can't blame them for not seeing the "uptick" in salaries? What's happened isn't an uptick, it's a pattern. Bogaerts contract (based on AAV) is only the 11th most valuable contract signed in the past five years. There's only one reason for them not seeing what he was going to get and that reason is that they weren't looking. That's only the first evidence of incompetence.

The second evidence of their incompetence is if, as you say, they didn't recognize that he's an elite player. Everyone in the league knew it so, again, were they not looking?

This does raise the question of whether it's incompetent to lie to the fans by saying that signing Bogaerts was their "top priority" when according to Bogaerts the Sox offer was so far below the Padres offer that it wasn't worth considering. Is lying the same as incompetence? Maybe not, if it serves the purpose of trying to sell tickets.

 

Point #2

There seems to always be the same excuse for losing their elite players.

Lester...well... we should have handled it better.

Betts....well... we should have handled it better.

Bogaerts...well... we should have handled it better.

Now the FO is in the same situation with Devers, that they've waited too long to sign him. This should have been done over a year ago but... well... they should have handled it better.

 

I can understand a team's making a mistake once or maybe even twice but they now are 4-for-4. That's a good day for a hitter but a poor career when it comes to botching contract negotiations with elite players.