Xander Bogaerts has signed with San Diego Padres

[moonslav59]

I agree with you that without Mookie, Bogey, and Raffy a very bleak long term outlook it is. Courtesy of Bloom, and JH.

 

You think had DD stayed, B & B would still be here ?

[Old Red]

You think had DD stayed, B & B would still be here ?

 

Your right again that Bloom had 3 years to work on Bogey, and Raffy’s contract, and should have been added to your top 5 list.

[moonslav59]

Your right again that Bloom had 3 years to work on Bogey, and Raffy’s contract, and should have been added to your top 5 list.

 

Why not supply your list?

[moonslav59]

Your right again that Bloom had 3 years to work on Bogey, and Raffy’s contract, and should have been added to your top 5 list.

 

You may not like my answers, but I do try to answer all your questions. Can you answer this one?

[Old Red]

Why not supply your list?

 

I’ve already listed many things today in previous post, and in post on other days for the past year now, and no none of them had Perez, and Richards on them, nor did they ever come to mind as any thing of importance.

[moonslav59]

I’ve already listed many things today in previous post, and in post on other days for the past year now, and no none of them had Perez, and Richards on them, nor did they ever come to mind as any thing of importance.

 

Nice non answer. I don't recall you ever ordering a worst 5 list, so I'll just assume you are too chicken to give your opinion and prefer to just slam others' opinions.

 

It took you a month to just give one name. It fits your pattern.

 

Got it.

[moonslav59]

What happens if we find out Bloom wanted to offer Bogey a deal BorA$$ would have accepted, but JH said no?

 

OOoooop!

 

(Same with Devers.)

 

Not saying it happened, but wouldn't it be funny?

[Jasonbay44]

What happens if we find out Bloom wanted to offer Bogey a deal BorA$$ would have accepted, but JH said no?

 

OOoooop!

 

(Same with Devers.)

 

Not saying it happened, but wouldn't it be funny?

Not really funny. I think most people frustrated with Bloom are also frustrated with Henry.. Both are getting a lot of blame and they’re usually lumped together

[Old Red]

Nice non answer. I don't recall you ever ordering a worst 5 list, so I'll just assume you are too chicken to give your opinion and prefer to just slam others' opinions.

 

It took you a month to just give one name. It fits your pattern.

 

Got it.

 

I actually thought you were better than that to think Perez, and Richards should be on a top 3 list of the many of Blooms Blunders, but you’ve proven beyond no doubt I was wrong, and now I know why you protect Bloom so much, because you don’t have much of a clue on all the things he’s done wrong, so your not coming from the same place that all of Blooms critics are coming from. Sad, but true.

[moonslav59]

Yeah, I forgot about Paxton and the tax line blunder.

 

You got me.

 

I thought I "was better than that," too.

 

It is so sad I don't come from the same place Bloom critics hang out. I wish I could be like all you cool guys on talk sports radio.

Edited December 27, 2022 by moonslav59

[moonslav59]

Not really funny. I think most people frustrated with Bloom are also frustrated with Henry.. Both are getting a lot of blame and they’re usually lumped together

 

Some don't get this fact. They actually think Bloom is choosing not to pay what the big guys want.

 

They actually think DD would have talked JH into spending more and allowing him to trade more prospects for the "here and now."

 

One thinks Bloom convinced top brass that Bogey was not worth more and that he'd rather have Arroyo at 2B than Bogey at SS.

 

One think we actually had a chance at winning despite slashing the budget from the 2019 roster while only adding Houck from the farm in 5 years. Nope, 3 years is enough. We haven't won, so it has to be his fault, because he couldn't possibly be wrong about expecting a much better team under these circumstances. Throw blame on others, so people won't look at you. It's a pretty common thing going on, these days.

 

I'm fine with people being pissed at the whole Sox management hierarchy, but I happen to think they realized the DD plan is not sustainable, unless the owner is on board with spending more, and more, then more and more and more... JH chose not to go that route and IMO, they chose the right path: build up the farm and roster depth before strategically signing players to fill a gap here and there. It's likely the best and most sustainable plan, under these circumstances. Until JH changes his stripes, what is a better direction?

[Old Red]

Yeah, I forgot about Paxton and the tax line blunder.

 

You got me.

 

I thought I "was better than that," too.

 

It is so sad I don't come from the same place Bloom critics hang out. I wish I could be like all you cool guys on talk sports radio.

 

It is sad that you just hang out in your little bubble. Like I said I have not heard anywhere else that the sad fate of the Red Sox today has been caused by Richards, and Perez courtesy of Bloom. What a real shallow analysis that is. Of course you’d have to have that to fit your narrative.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Old Red

[moonslav59]

It's sad that you didn't hear it here, either, except in your twisted brain.

 

And, you have no idea where I hang out- like listening to Boston talk sports radio is "the place to be." LMAO.

 

Again, more strawman. I never even came close to even implying our troubles are because of Richards and Perez. You'd think you'd know my position by now, even if you disagree. You are arguing against the same strawman over and over.

 

My whole point is that the situation was beyond what any GM could solve in 3 short years. That in no way implies we are where we are because 2 of Bloom's worst 6 moves were Perez and Richards.

 

Your logic is as twisted as your understanding of the English language.

 

You assume it's a given we are where we are today because of Bloom, so you assume every point made is through your own personal lense. You can't even grasp my position enough to respond in a rational way. It's got me cracking up laughing. (Seriously, my wife just asked me what's so funny.)

 

If you'd said my "narrative" has been about the slashed budget and Houck in 5 years, you'd at least be warmer.

 

You truly have no clue, except maybe on how to argue with phantoms.

Edited December 27, 2022 by moonslav59

[Jasonbay44]

Some don't get this fact. They actually think Bloom is choosing not to pay what the big guys want.

 

They actually think DD would have talked JH into spending more and allowing him to trade more prospects for the "here and now."

 

One thinks Bloom convinced top brass that Bogey was not worth more and that he'd rather have Arroyo at 2B than Bogey at SS.

 

One think we actually had a chance at winning despite slashing the budget from the 2019 roster while only adding Houck from the farm in 5 years. Nope, 3 years is enough. We haven't won, so it has to be his fault, because he couldn't possibly be wrong about expecting a much better team under these circumstances. Throw blame on others, so people won't look at you. It's a pretty common thing going on, these days.

 

I'm fine with people being pissed at the whole Sox management hierarchy, but I happen to think they realized the DD plan is not sustainable, unless the owner is on board with spending more, and more, then more and more and more... JH chose not to go that route and IMO, they chose the right path: build up the farm and roster depth before strategically signing players to fill a gap here and there. It's likely the best and most sustainable plan, under these circumstances. Until JH changes his stripes, what is a better direction?

 

It’s pretty foolish to blame Bloom but not blame Henry IMO. Its clearly a group effort

[Old Red]

It’s pretty foolish to blame Bloom but not blame Henry IMO. Its clearly a group effort

 

I agree 100% that both Bloom, and Henry are to blame. Bloom read the room so bad that when it came time to pay Henry didn’t want to pay that much. Bloom reading the room so bad to me is the bigger issue than Henry not wanting to pay where the money had gone up to.

[Bellhorn04]

We'll never know if the Red Sox actually wanted to keep Bogaerts or not. One way or another, the team's credibility is shot.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

We'll never know if the Red Sox actually wanted to keep Bogaerts or not. One way or another, the team's credibility is shot.

 

The Red Sox are incredible.

[moonslav59]

It’s pretty foolish to blame Bloom but not blame Henry IMO. Its clearly a group effort

 

The thing is, to me, they hired Bloom specifically to do what he's been doing. They did not hire him to continue like DD, and he talked them out of it by saying, "No, let's cut the budget and build the farm, instead. Can I prove this? No, but I'd love to hear someone provide evidence it's true.

 

JH & Co. saw the writing on the wall in 2019, IMO. They knew they stretched their resources, and like many of us, felt the winning window they created would and should have lasted longer than the 3 years it did. They started putting the brakes on spending in 2019, and DD likely balked. They probably truly believed they had a core of players that could keep them winning, or at least be semi-competitive as they worked on building the farm back up. Notice no significant prospects were traded after the 2018 deadline trades that brought us Nate, Kinsler and Pearce. The rebuild process started 1.5 years before Bloom's arrival. Some differences in opinion likely occurred and DD was shown the door.

 

They hired a GM to do two things, again in my opinion, one- rebuild the farm to a point where a steady flow of meaningful prospects could be counted on and expected and two- to build up the 40 man roster depth that was in shambles after 2019. All of this, while operating under strict budget limits until last winter/spring, when he was allowed to sign Story (which really wasn't all that "large" or "long" of a deal.)

 

They felt he would excel at finding functional players at low or moderate cost. He found a few in Schreiber, Arroyo, Refsnyder, Strahm, Kike, Wacha and Hill, but he swung and missed on Richards, Perez I, Perez II (too bad no Perez III), Marwin, Andriese, Paxton, Diekman and countless even lower cost scrubs that formed a revolving door of failures after failures. The idea was to try and stay competitive through the rebuild. I don't think they lied about that. Other than 2020, when Sale and ERod were both on the shelf, all year, and Betts & Price were forced to be traded, the talk on this site was more of less about us thinking we had a chance to make the playoffs. We did b etter than that in 2021 and failed miserably in 2022, despite it appearing like B loom made more plus moves (Wacha, Hill, Strahm & Schreiber) than minus ones (Renfroe, Paxton, Diekman).

 

Unlike many here, I hesitate to "blame Henry." Sure, I wish he'd spend more, but it's his money and he's showed he spends it more than 75% of other GMs and seems to plan plurges when it seems like the moment is ripe for the next ring. I certainly can not blame him for thinking after 2019 or 2020 was "that time" to splurge, despite the windows closing on Betts (2020) and Bogey (2020) with the Devers window fast approaching (2023.) He saw the condition the 40 man roster and farm were in and IMO, rightfully decided now is not "the time." He'd have to have spent enormous amounts of money to get us to the ring level, which would have hurt our farm building efforts due to penalties, and yes, lower draft picks, too. He chose not to spend, wildly. If people want to throw blame, yes JH needs to be included in the group effort.

 

I just see this whole blame Bloom, JH & Co. things as being over-the-top. Many arguments are logical and understandable- like we pay the highest ticket prices and have a top 6-7 budget, we should be winning more, but I sense a feeling of entitlement and exceptionalism going on among many Sox fans. Call us "spoiled" or worse like some whacko poster called them "crybaby fans," but we've had a nice ride over the last 2 decades, despite all the last place finishes. I would not trade these last 20 years for the previous 30 or 40, even with a gun to my head.

 

What's the direction, many ask. To me, it's obvious: build up the farm and 40 man roster depth to a point where we feel adding a few high-priced players would put us over the top. I thought we were real close, this winter. I felt we could reset and still become a top contender. Maybe, I was naive, and the explosion of contracts for the best of the best put a crimp in who I felt we could have added and how many, but here we are after adding 5 key players and we still see 3 big holes, so maybe they were right about us needing 7-9 players, this winter and $80M turned out to be way less than what was needed.

 

I like the direction of the team, and realize I may be in a minority of one. (Kimmi? Are you here?) But, our farm and 40 man roster look much stronger than 2019-2020. It may turn out it's all a mirage, but we tried. It looks better, on paper, and now we await the results on the field.

 

I'm hopeful the rumblings from Six Nation lights a fire under JH to spend more, but I don't ever expect 3 years in a row over the tax line, so I'm fine with that aspect of "the plan" and thinking this winer's reset makes more sense than next winter. I'm also seeing improvement at many slots going into 2023. I'm optimistic those improvements can outweigh the losses at SS and SP1 and SP3, but there is still a couple months left and about $38M to spend, so maybe even those slots won't look as bad as they do, right now.

[moonslav59]

I agree 100% that both Bloom, and Henry are to blame. Bloom read the room so bad that when it came time to pay Henry didn’t want to pay that much. Bloom reading the room so bad to me is the bigger issue than Henry not wanting to pay where the money had gone up to.

 

Make up your mind: did we never want Bogey, or did we want him, but Bloom "read the room wrong" and convinced JH & Co. we wanted Bogey and could get him at a price that never materialized?

[moonslav59]

We'll never know if the Red Sox actually wanted to keep Bogaerts or not. One way or another, the team's credibility is shot.

 

Could it be true that the Sox really wanted Bogey, badly, but felt he was not worth more than say, $200M/8? They felt they could get him at that price and were wrong, or that price was really close to what Borass demanded a couple months ago, and they were just blown out of the water by the SD offer, at the last minute?

 

It's possible, they never lied about wanting Bogey or him being a top priority, but their offers always came up short- possibly just a tiny bit short, until the SD offer widened the gap by much more than they'd ever have offered?

 

Is this "misreading the room" or just a normal negotiation where our offer never met an acceptable level to get the deal done?

 

Are we sure not signing Bogey was a clear mistake? We outbid everyone for Price. Most felt it was a necessary overpay, and how do we think about that signing, now? Could we feel the same about Bogey in 7-8 years? We might end up thinking we dodged a bullet. We might end up finding out what we could have had him for 2 years ago, 1 year ago of a few months ago and say, WOW! What a complete blunder!

 

Would we still be crying about Lester had he sucked with the Cubs?

[Bellhorn04]

Could it be true that the Sox really wanted Bogey, badly, but felt he was not worth more than say, $200M/8? They felt they could get him at that price and were wrong, or that price was really close to what Borass demanded a couple months ago, and they were just blown out of the water by the SD offer, at the last minute?

 

It's possible, they never lied about wanting Bogey or him being a top priority, but their offers always came up short- possibly just a tiny bit short, until the SD offer widened the gap by much more than they'd ever have offered?

 

Is this "misreading the room" or just a normal negotiation where our offer never met an acceptable level to get the deal done?

 

Are we sure not signing Bogey was a clear mistake? We outbid everyone for Price. Most felt it was a necessary overpay, and how do we think about that signing, now? Could we feel the same about Bogey in 7-8 years? We might end up thinking we dodged a bullet. We might end up finding out what we could have had him for 2 years ago, 1 year ago of a few months ago and say, WOW! What a complete blunder!

 

Would we still be crying about Lester had he sucked with the Cubs?

 

Many things are possible.

 

Sure, we may end up glad we didn't retain Bogey.

On the other hand, we may regret it deeply.

 

We also may end up deeming the Story signing a disaster. Or the Yoshida signing.

 

What's the point in posing a bunch of questions no one can answer?

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Don't blame the fans for doubting the plan.

 

It sucks to come in last place, and then lose your best players and not even replace them before the next season. Why would anyone look forward to that?

 

Part of the outrage about Bogaerts is that fans invested in watching every game -- and reading and writing about the Sox year-round -- now rightfully fear we'll also lose Rafael Devers.

 

The only goal isn't to just win rings, because that's unreasonable (and elitist). Fans want to be entertained, and cheer for their favorites -- who are hopefully forming the core of an improving ballclub. Most don't give a damn about a GM or CBO who's clever enough to recruit low-cost players who are merely functional.

[notin]

We'll never know if the Red Sox actually wanted to keep Bogaerts or not. One way or another, the team's credibility is shot.

 

There’s always the possibility they’re being too honest…

[moonslav59]

Many things are possible.

 

Sure, we may end up glad we didn't retain Bogey.

On the other hand, we may regret it deeply.

 

We also may end up deeming the Story signing a disaster. Or the Yoshida signing.

 

What's the point in posing a bunch of questions no one can answer?

 

Yes. What's the point in crying over losing Bogey, when it might end up being the right thing to do?

 

It's what we do, here. What ifs and WTFs?

[moonslav59]

Don't blame the fans for doubting the plan.

 

It sucks to come in last place, and then lose your best players and not even replace them before the next season. Why would anyone look forward to that?

 

Part of the outrage about Bogaerts is that fans invested in watching every game -- and reading and writing about the Sox year-round -- now rightfully fear we'll also lose Rafael Devers.

 

The only goal isn't to just win rings, because that's unreasonable (and elitist). Fans want to be entertained, and cheer for their favorites -- who are hopefully forming the core of an improving ballclub. Most don't give a damn about a GM or CBO who's clever enough to recruit low-cost players who are merely functional.

 

Indeed, most don't care or want to care about all the context and nuances of being the Sox GM post 2019.

 

I'm not happy, either, but I though this was all worth the sacrifice that brought us 3 first place finishes and a great 2018 season and ring.

 

The only part I "blame the fans" for, and this is pure speculation, is that we were so afraid to do what was best for the team's long term chances of success that we failed to make trades to get under the tax line or to trade Bogey, before getting nothing for him, due, at least in part to fear of fan revolts.

 

Well, guess what? They revolted, anyway! (And for good reasons.)

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Yes. What's the point in crying over losing Bogey, when it might end up being the right thing to do?

 

It's what we do, here. What ifs and WTFs?

 

I agree, and while I'm not crying over Bogey, it would've been nice to replace him with another good player. There were several available, but the costs were prohibitive -- or antithetical to the long-range plan -- for this regime.

 

I get that, but still find it unacceptable that the front office left the roster woefully incomplete last season and is doing the same thing this offseason (as far as idling, whilst many, many viable candidates find new homes with actual contenders). Especially when they're still trying to pretend they're trying to win the World Series.

[Bellhorn04]

There’s always the possibility they’re being too honest…

 

Too honest about Bogey being their No. 1 priority, you mean?

[moonslav59]

I agree, and while I'm not crying over Bogey, it would've been nice to replace him with another good player. There were several available, but the costs were prohibitive -- or antithetical to the long-range plan -- for this regime.

 

I get that, but still find it unacceptable that the front office left the roster woefully incomplete last season and is doing the same thing this offseason (as far as idling, whilst many, many viable candidates find new homes with actual contenders). Especially when they're still trying to pretend they're trying to win the World Series.

 

I'm scratching my head, too. I don't get the focus on LF and DH, when clearly SS, SP and CF/RF were and still are much bigger need areas. There is still time and money left over, so maybe something b ig gets done, but the FA list is down to 4-5 guys that would help a lot, but are no big WOWs.

 

We did fill the pen needs, well- well enough to be able to move Whitlock to the rotation and still look strong and deep. That filled one of the 2-3 rotation slots needed on day one of winter.

 

I agree on signings that were possible that would not go against the long-range plan.

 

I do wonder about a simple truth about the long term plan: if Mayer and Rafaela are locked into starting positions for 2024, then the plan might have been to sign a SS and CF/RF'er to a one year deal. That automatically precludes getting the best of the best, although some very decent players did sign for one year. It never hurts to add SP'ing, so I won't touch that one.

 

Would Andrus take $14M/1 from us over $33M/3 from someone else? I'm thinking pay Andrus what it takes and insist on the contract not having a no trade clause. Just do it!

 

Or trade for Miguel Rojas and Michael Taylor. No top prospects would be needed, and sign 2 from Kluber, Nate and Fulmer/Chafin.

 

This would still fall short of what I hoped for, this winter, but the skyrocketing prices for top players tampered down expectations a bit, assuming the reset, like I did.

 

[Bellhorn04]

I agree, and while I'm not crying over Bogey, it would've been nice to replace him with another good player. There were several available, but the costs were prohibitive -- or antithetical to the long-range plan -- for this regime.

 

I get that, but still find it unacceptable that the front office left the roster woefully incomplete last season and is doing the same thing this offseason (as far as idling, whilst many, many viable candidates find new homes with actual contenders). Especially when they're still trying to pretend they're trying to win the World Series.

 

Yes, it's the big picture.

 

It's one thing after another that suggests they really have no clue what they're doing right now.

 

They said they were going to compete while rebuilding, they did a good job of that in 2021, but 2022 was bad and 2023 is looking worse.

[notin]

Too honest about Bogey being their No. 1 priority, you mean?

 

Ok, if you like. Just because it didn’t work out doesn’t mean he want their top priority, right? After all, that whole concept of “top priority” doesn’t imply any sort of intensity; it just means nothing else was more important at the time.

 

But we do know that they viewed Devers as a DH/1b and the initial offer was comparable to Matt Olson’s contract. Presumably this came up in talks with Devers. So there is the possibility that when negotiating with Bogaerts, the initial talks also included discussions of changing position off shortstop. In the past, Bogaerts has been openly reluctant to change, and I don’t know if he still is. But if he (or his reps) stated the preference was to remain at shortstop, certainly it explains why the Sox didn’t go beyond 4 years initially.

 

It does make me wonder if San Diego broached the subject of changing positions with Bogaerts. Or if they ignored it, or an 11 year deal made Bogaerts more flexible…

Edited December 27, 2022 by notin