A Realistic View at 2023: Part I

[Maxbialystock]

I don’t think the Red Sox didn’t win in 1946, or 1967, or 1975, or 1978, or 1986, because JH wasn’t the owner.

 

Funny thing, but I actually do think that. John Henry is smart, and he's also a little lucky. Or have you forgotten already how the Sox were down 3 games to zip in the 2004 ALCS before taking 4 straight from the Yankees?

 

Let me also hasten to add that the John Henry WS wins all occurred after the postseason became a juggernaut with wild cards, ALDS/NLDS, ALCS/NLCS, and WS. So that makes John Henry even luckier--and smarter than those other smucks, especially Tom Yawkey.

[moonslav59]

It is up to the owner to spend what it takes to put together a team capable of winning a championship. When it comes down to winning it , it is up to the players to do it. The owner has no control over that. Dave Roberts had to steal that base. John Henry could not do it.

 

JH and Co, hired Theo and not Richard O'Connell, Haywood Sullivan and Lou Gorman. (Duquette did help set up Theo nicely.)

 

I won't speak of Ed Collins, Joe Cronin or those from the early 60's, and maybe they were better than their results showed.

 

I do find it a bit puzzling that some seem to bash Bloom for having no rings yet, yet seem to think the owners who hired these "other" GMs had nothing or just a minor role in the results of those teams. If it's only about W's and L's and rings, they were all failures, buy their own criteria.

[moonslav59]

When it comes down to winning it , it is up to the players to do it. The owner has no control over that.

 

Couldn't you say the same about the GM?

 

It's the players not the GM, right?.

 

IMO, especially after free agency, the GM has a major hand in what players are on the field, and the owner has a major hand on who the GM(s) will be.

[Old Red]

Couldn't you say the same about the GM?

 

It's the players not the GM, right?.

 

IMO, especially after free agency, the GM has a major hand in what players are on the field, and the owner has a major hand on who the GM(s) will be.

The owner, and GM are far from being the same thing. JH may have the checkbook, and didn’t want to open it any further for Mookie, and the jury is still out if he will for Bogey, and Raffy, but Bloom is the one for picking the players, or not picking the players.

[moonslav59]

The owner, and GM are far from being the same thing. JH may have the checkbook, and didn’t want to open it any further for Mookie, and the jury is still out if he will for Bogey, and Raffy, but Bloom is the one for picking the players, or not picking the players.

 

So, JH hiring Theo and others meant nothing or very little with our ring winnings?

[Old Red]

So, JH hiring Theo and others meant nothing or very little with our ring winnings?

 

If you want to look at it that way you can, but to me the Owner, the GM, and the Manager all are part of the team, and all have different jobs. You are also leaving out Larry Lucchino, who JH himself said ran the Red Sox, and did more to bring Theo aboard than JH, and who hired Tito? You can break it down anyway you want to, but like I said before too circumstances that transpired on the field all these years had more to do with any success, or lack of, and I didn’t see the owner on the field.

[moonslav59]

If you want to look at it that way you can, but to me the Owner, the GM, and the Manager all are part of the team, and all have different jobs. You are also leaving out Larry Lucchino, who JH himself said ran the Red Sox, and did more to bring Theo aboard than JH, and who hired Tito? You can break it down anyway you want to, but like I said before too circumstances that transpired on the field all these years had more to do with any success, or lack of, and I didn’t see the owner on the field.

 

Yes, I break it down differently than you and others.

 

To me, we still have zero rings without Henry. It's that simple, to me.

 

We might still have one ring without Papi, 4 without Yaz and Williams, and so on...

 

Of course, it's the players that win the games, but the owners and management team make it happen. If not, why do many posters keep bashing JH's stinginess and Bloom & Cora more than the players?

 

[moonslav59]

If you want to look at it that way you can, but to me the Owner, the GM, and the Manager all are part of the team, and all have different jobs. You are also leaving out Larry Lucchino, who JH himself said ran the Red Sox, and did more to bring Theo aboard than JH, and who hired Tito? You can break it down anyway you want to, but like I said before too circumstances that transpired on the field all these years had more to do with any success, or lack of, and I didn’t see the owner on the field.

 

BTW, you never answered my question, and who hired Larry?

[Bellhorn04]

It is up to the owner to spend what it takes to put together a team capable of winning a championship. When it comes down to winning it , it is up to the players to do it. The owner has no control over that. Dave Roberts had to steal that base. John Henry could not do it.

 

Of course. But in reality it's a chain of events. Theo Epstein is the guy who made the deadline trade for Roberts because he thought the team could use a speed merchant.

[Nick]

https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2022/09/red-soxs-christian-vazquez-trade-was-unpopular-but-replacement-reese-mcguire-may-be-longterm-answer.html

 

Good read on our catcher Reese McGuire.

 

I like it that he's a left handed hitting catcher. He's under team control for three more years and he's only 27 (Vaz turned 32 recently).

 

Getting rid of "I just can't throw strikes Dieckman" and getting in return McGuire goes into Bloom's win column.

[Nick]

Sure thing for 2023.

 

SP1

SP2

SP3 Pivetta

SP4

SP5 Bello

 

others; Sale, Paxton(?), Winckowski, Cutter, Seabold

 

Closer Houck

RP 1 Barnes

RP 2 Whitlock

RP 3 Schreiber

RP 4

RP 5

RP 6

RP 7

others; Brasier, Ort, Kelly, Bazardo, German,

 

C McGuire

1B Casas

2B Story

SS

3B Devers

LF Pham

CF Kike

RF Verdugo

DH

Utility Wong, Arroyo, Chang, Dalbec, Refsnyder, Hosmer

 

Need an ace type to go along with Wacha/Eovaldi.

 

This looks the same team to me. Need couple of big free agent signings outside of Xander/Wacha.

[mvp 78]

This looks the same team to me. Need couple of big free agent signings outside of Xander/Wacha.

 

There aren't many good ones this year.

[moonslav59]

https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2022/09/red-soxs-christian-vazquez-trade-was-unpopular-but-replacement-reese-mcguire-may-be-longterm-answer.html

 

Good read on our catcher Reese McGuire.

 

I like it that he's a left handed hitting catcher. He's under team control for three more years and he's only 27 (Vaz turned 32 recently).

 

Getting rid of "I just can't throw strikes Dieckman" and getting in return McGuire goes into Bloom's win column.

 

We were also on the hook for $4M on Diekman in 2024. McGuire won't make that much! We saved money!

 

We got our starting catcher and made money on the deal.

 

It's a double win.

 

(Wong also looks like a solid back-up.)

[Old Red]

Yes, I break it down differently than you and others.

 

To me, we still have zero rings without Henry. It's that simple, to me.

 

We might still have one ring without Papi, 4 without Yaz and Williams, and so on...

 

Of course, it's the players that win the games, but the owners and management team make it happen. If not, why do many posters keep bashing JH's stinginess and Bloom & Cora more than the players?

 

 

Just because something is simple to you doesn’t mean it’s true, or would have happened that way. No one knows for sure one way, or the other that the Red Sox would still have zero rings if. John Henry hadn’t been the owner. Also who also hasn’t said that the players have just as much a part in the lack of success than JH, Cora, and Bloom. There is plenty of blame to go around for this season, and like I’ve said before even if the Red Sox would have won a ring last year it still wouldn’t have made it alright this year. You like to use bash, and bashing a lot when it comes to any part of discussing Bloom, Cora, and JH, but I like to call it constructive criticism.

[cp176]

Sure thing for 2023.

 

SP1

SP2

SP3 Pivetta

SP4

SP5 Bello

 

others; Sale, Paxton(?), Winckowski, Cutter, Seabold

 

Closer Houck

RP 1 Barnes

RP 2 Whitlock

RP 3 Schreiber

RP 4

RP 5

RP 6

RP 7

others; Brasier, Ort, Kelly, Bazardo, German,

 

C McGuire

1B Casas

2B Story

SS

3B Devers

LF Pham

CF Kike

RF Verdugo

DH

Utility Wong, Arroyo, Chang, Dalbec, Refsnyder, Hosmer

 

Need an ace type to go along with Wacha/Eovaldi.

 

This looks the same team to me. Need couple of big free agent signings outside of Xander/Wacha.

 

I think that you are likely fairly accurate with this assumption for next year. Looks to me like we are in trouble.

[mvp 78]

Just because something is simple to you doesn’t mean it’s true, or would have happened that way. No one knows for sure one way, or the other that the Red Sox would still have zero rings if. John Henry hadn’t been the owner. Also who also hasn’t said that the players have just as much a part in the lack of success than JH, Cora, and Bloom. There is plenty of blame to go around for this season, and like I’ve said before even if the Red Sox would have won a ring last year it still wouldn’t have made it alright this year. You like to use bash, and bashing a lot when it comes to any part of discussing Bloom, Cora, and JH, but I like to call it constructive criticism.

 

If they won the WS last season, would you be calling for Bloom to be fired this year?

[Bellhorn04]

Just because something is simple to you doesn’t mean it’s true, or would have happened that way. No one knows for sure one way, or the other that the Red Sox would still have zero rings if. John Henry hadn’t been the owner. Also who also hasn’t said that the players have just as much a part in the lack of success than JH, Cora, and Bloom. There is plenty of blame to go around for this season, and like I’ve said before even if the Red Sox would have won a ring last year it still wouldn’t have made it alright this year. You like to use bash, and bashing a lot when it comes to any part of discussing Bloom, Cora, and JH, but I like to call it constructive criticism.

 

Constructive criticism is intended to help the person get better. Saying Bloom should be fired is not constructive criticism.

[Old Red]

If they won the WS last season, would you be calling for Bloom to be fired this year?

 

To be honest, and I have said i didn’t like Bloom’s hiring the day it was announced I will say yes. To me he made the team worse, and didn’t do anything for 2 months when he knew this team had trouble spots back in May. I have no faith that Bloom can put Humpty Dumpty back together again, so right, or wrong that is my opinion.

[Old Red]

Constructive criticism is intended to help the person get better. Saying Bloom should be fired is not constructive criticism.

 

That to me would be constructive criticism to make the Red Sox better.

[mvp 78]

To be honest, and I have said i didn’t like Bloom’s hiring the day it was announced I will say yes. To me he made the team worse, and didn’t do anything for 2 months when he knew this team had trouble spots back in May. I have no faith that Bloom can put Humpty Dumpty back together again, so right, or wrong that is my opinion.

 

IMO

 

2020: He did what he was told to do.

2021: He kept the budget low and was able to add key pieces to get the Sox to the ALCS.

2022: He made some critical errors: JBJ trade, signing several older arms that all surprisingly went on the IL and went over the lux tax when team was flailing.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

IMO

 

2020: He did what he was told to do.

2021: He kept the budget low and was able to add key pieces to get the Sox to the ALCS.

2022: He made some critical errors: JBJ trade, signing several older arms that all surprisingly went on the IL and went over the lux tax when team was flailing.

 

Pitching plans in this coming offseason could make or break Bloom and will certainly determine any chance of the Red Sox being "way better in 2023."

 

To count on any pitcher fully healing from surgery is folly. It's ok to hope for timely recoveries and returns to pre-op levels for guys like Sale, Paxton, Houck and Whitlock, but history shows nothing is guaranteed, even for "successful" surgeries.

 

Contingencies for quality and durable arms in the rotation and bullpen are imperative. Investing big money on veterans and/or pitchers in their primes is always risky, but that's the nature of the sport, and every team that is committed to winning has no choice if they are sincere about contending.

[Nick]

To be honest, and I have said i didn’t like Bloom’s hiring the day it was announced I will say yes. To me he made the team worse, and didn’t do anything for 2 months when he knew this team had trouble spots back in May. I have no faith that Bloom can put Humpty Dumpty back together again, so right, or wrong that is my opinion.

 

You may end up being right. I'm willing to give him couple of more years.

 

But I will hold him to his statement told to Kike, "the team will be MUCH better". This will be an interesting off season.

 

I appreciate that organizational depth MAY and PROBABLY HAS improved. As a coach, I'm looking for high ceiling kids that are impact players. My own personal experience tells me that bunch of average players will not lead to championships.

 

What young talent do we actually have?

 

I see Bello as one and Casas maybe another. Perhaps Whitlock and Houck will get there. (We will get the answer in 2023 for them). I'm hopeful that Mata will get there. But the Seabolds of the world doesn't impress me.

Edited September 26, 2022 by Nick

[mvp 78]

Pitching plans in this coming offseason could make or break Bloom and will certainly determine any chance of the Red Sox being "way better in 2023."

 

To count on any pitcher fully healing from surgery is folly. It's ok to hope for timely recoveries and returns to pre-op levels for guys like Sale, Paxton, Houck and Whitlock, but history shows nothing is guaranteed, even for "successful" surgeries.

 

Contingencies for quality and durable arms in the rotation and bullpen are imperative. Investing big money on veterans and/or pitchers in their primes is always risky, but that's the nature of the sport, and every team that is committed to winning has no choice if they are sincere about contending.

 

Others have mentioned dealing from the farm to get a young arm or two. That's probably the best course of action.

[moonslav59]

Just because something is simple to you doesn’t mean it’s true, or would have happened that way. No one knows for sure one way, or the other that the Red Sox would still have zero rings if. John Henry hadn’t been the owner. Also who also hasn’t said that the players have just as much a part in the lack of success than JH, Cora, and Bloom. There is plenty of blame to go around for this season, and like I’ve said before even if the Red Sox would have won a ring last year it still wouldn’t have made it alright this year. You like to use bash, and bashing a lot when it comes to any part of discussing Bloom, Cora, and JH, but I like to call it constructive criticism.

 

No, simple does not mean true, but it's true to me.

 

I use the word bash because it is unceasing, relentless and for some nearly 100% negative- maybe with a few tid bits of praise sprinkled in.

 

The list of Bloom's bad moves, non moves and bad choices is long, and those who defend Bloom, a lot, often mention that, but his list of good moves, choices and no moves is very long, too, and we barely hear of any of them from a few posters.

 

(You do mention many of the good moves more than most of the other Bloom "constructive critics." By the way, constructive criticism usually involves giving real suggestions of other options or suggested alternative choices and not just things like, "trade for a 1Bman i n May," when none were traded of known to be available. We often ask for specific names or ideas from you and are often left hanging.)

[mvp 78]

You may end up being right. I'm willing to give him couple of more years.

 

But I will hold him to his statement told to Kike, "the team will be MUCH better". This will be an interesting off season.

 

I appreciate that organizational depth MAY and PROBABLY HAS improved. As a coach, I'm looking for high ceiling kids that are impact players. My own personal experience tells me that bunch of average players will not lead to championships.

 

What young talent do we actually have?

 

I see Bello as one and Casas maybe another. Perhaps Whitlock and Houck will get there. (We will get the answer in 2023 for them).

 

If they are even just a middling .500 team going through the motions, he can go away.

[Nick]

If they are even just a middling .500 team going through the motions, he can go away.

 

yep

 

Fixing 20-46 record vs AL East won't be easy without infusion of new talent.

Edited September 26, 2022 by Nick

[Old Red]

No, simple does not mean true, but it's true to me.

 

I use the word bash because it is unceasing, relentless and for some nearly 100% negative- maybe with a few tid bits of praise sprinkled in.

 

The list of Bloom's bad moves, non moves and bad choices is long, and those who defend Bloom, a lot, often mention that, but his list of good moves, choices and no moves is very long, too, and we barely hear of any of them from a few posters.

 

(You do mention many of the good moves more than most of the other Bloom "constructive critics." By the way, constructive criticism usually involves giving real suggestions of other options or suggested alternative choices and not just things like, "trade for a 1Bman i n May," when none were traded of known to be available. We often ask for specific names or ideas from you and are often left hanging.)

Like I’ve said before I’m not the HOBO, and Bloom is, and if he is as good as some tend to think on here he should have been able to find someone to play 1B better than Franchy Strange Glove, and if he couldn’t then he shouldn’t be in the position he is in the first place. You want me to do his job for him, and like I said before I’m not doing that. How do you know that no 1B were available? I don’t do the BTV stuff like some of you do. He’s the HOBO, and like I’ll say again act like it, and make a deal even if it means somebody goes off the 40 man, because that was a time of having a need, and nothing was done.

[moonslav59]

You may end up being right. I'm willing to give him couple of more years.

 

But I will hold him to his statement told to Kike, "the team will be MUCH better". This will be an interesting off season.

 

I appreciate that organizational depth MAY and PROBABLY HAS improved. As a coach, I'm looking for high ceiling kids that are impact players. My own personal experience tells me that bunch of average players will not lead to championships.

 

What young talent do we actually have?

 

I see Bello as one and Casas maybe another. Perhaps Whitlock and Houck will get there. (We will get the answer in 2023 for them). I'm hopeful that Mata will get there. But the Seabolds of the world doesn't impress me.

 

IMO, you don't go all in, until the organizational depth is established and enough role players are in place- mostly at low cost. Bloom has been working on doing just that, while trying to field a somewhat competitive team along the way.

 

IMO, he's done a fine job on rebuilding the depth and farm with mixed results on the "along the way" competitive aspect of the plan.

 

He also has sacrificed some of the here and now by trading for many prospects- some bound to fail, but some likely to help. he got Whitlock, Schreiber, Refsnyder, Arroyo, Kelly and others off the scrap heap or Rule 5.

 

He traded for...

 

German (w Ottavino) for nothing

Wong & Downs (w Dugo) for Betts

Seabold (w Pivetta) for Workman & Hembree

JWallace for Pillar

Potts for Moreland

CKoss for Aybar

de la Rosa, FValdez, GGambrell (w Cordero) for Beni

Binelas & Hamilton (w JBJ) for Renfroe

EValdez & WAbreu for Vaz

MFerguson & Rosier (w Hosmer & cash) for Groome

 

This has some deals that look bad or really bad, right now, but the fact is, the plan was to build the farm, and some of these guys will likely contribute- some sooner than others.

 

 

[Hugh2]

Like I’ve said before I’m not the HOBO, and Bloom is, and if he is as good as some tend to think on here he should have been able to find someone to play 1B better than Franchy Strange Glove, and if he couldn’t then he shouldn’t be in the position he is in the first place. You want me to do his job for him, and like I said before I’m not doing that. How do you know that no 1B were available? I don’t do the BTV stuff like some of you do. He’s the HOBO, and like I’ll say again act like it, and make a deal even if it means somebody goes off the 40 man, because that was a time of having a need, and nothing was done.

 

They went into the season thinking after two years and a .820 OPS that Bobby D would be fine. Probably the most defensible move Bloom made, not plugging a hole that seemingly didn't exist at the time.

[moonslav59]

Like I’ve said before I’m not the HOBO, and Bloom is, and if he is as good as some tend to think on here he should have been able to find someone to play 1B better than Franchy Strange Glove, and if he couldn’t then he shouldn’t be in the position he is in the first place. You want me to do his job for him, and like I said before I’m not doing that. How do you know that no 1B were available? I don’t do the BTV stuff like some of you do. He’s the HOBO, and like I’ll say again act like it, and make a deal even if it means somebody goes off the 40 man, because that was a time of having a need, and nothing was done.

 

No, you are not being asked to be the GM, but just saying get a 1Bman without specifics is not constructive, IMO.