Fire Bloom .

[MADSTORK]

The 2004 Sox were built by a genius mind who used his farm to get top notch talent. Didn’t hurt that Ortiz fell into his lap.

 

The 2007 Sox were a very home grown club, which shows you how quickly you can reload when you’ve got a good farm

 

And a competent GM !

[dgalehouse]

Very well said, and 100% correct. You are dead on about the PBA, but the big question is why, why, why Nancy Kerrigan. You are right that the Ave fan are not that deep, and I believe could give a rats ass about analytics, or know, or care who is doing what in Salem, or Greenville. What they do care about is who’s on first, and for the last two years not very much at all, and that is on on Bloom. I have said from when Bloom got hired he was in over his head, and I still feel that way.

 

Thanks. I think that when you are the boss , you have to be responsible for the results . Excuses , spin , blaming others , etc just doesn't cut it.

[dgalehouse]

OMG I agree entirely with you. Give me a minute ... I need to sit down!

 

jad , I think that's twice now. Be careful. Your health comes first. Might be better to ignore me.

[MADSTORK]

I don't think we are speaking the same language here. Teams emerge from "rebuilds" by having a core group of players who you build around or a couple home grown or cheaply acquired players who turn into superstars.

 

The sox farm is world's better than it was in 2019, but the only two guys who really profile as All-Star level players are Casas and Mayer, and some of the bloom has fallen off Casas' rose lately. Mayer isnt gonna be ready until 2024 at the earliest. Bello and Mata have great ceilings, but they also could end up as multi inning relievers if they struggle with command (like Bello is doing now). There is much to be decided and it will be decided in 2023, which is why you aren't able to pull yourself out of this nosedive in one season.

 

Right now, the Yanks are lapping you and the rest of the AL is pulling away. 2022 looks like a bust right now. After 2022, this is your returning team

 

C- Wong

1B- Casas

2B- Downs

SS- Story

3B- Devers

LF- Verdugo

CF- Duran

RF- ??

DH- Dalbec

 

That lineup has holes inside of holes. You aren't fixing that internally and with the FA market that is out there, you aren't fixing it externally. While you may have better depth than before, you don't have the depth to acquire talent in the offseason when it comes at a premium. Let's look at rotation

 

SP1- Sale- never stays healthy, breaks bones laughing

SP2- Pivetta- really a SP5, but this is what you got

SP3- Bello- high ceiling, looks like cannon fodder right now

SP4- Crawford- low ceiling, probably better off as a long reliever

SP5- Winckowski- sucks big time

 

CL- Houck- solid stuff, very inconsistent

SU- Whitlock- top notch, can give innings, injury risk

 

In the rotation, you could need as many as 4 starters to be relevant again.

 

All I am saying is the sox system cannot kick start this team on it's own as there are too many holes. It still doesn't have enough impactful guys and doesn't have the depth to start the upswing phase of a rebuild. You will need a few years to kick start it and you can shorten that window if you deal off some expiring contract players for some prospects of value

 

What year was it the Yanks were in sell mode? They dumped dead weight and rebuilt on the fly. They made some pretty good deadline deals

Like I said Cashman is no dummy. Much like Epstein Cherington DD, GM”s have down years and good years, make questionable moves and so on but in the end GM’s need patience and luck

[moonslav59]

Thanks. I think that when you are the boss , you have to be responsible for the results . Excuses , spin , blaming others , etc just doesn't cut it.

 

No doubt, Bloom has made enough choices to be judged on what he’s done bad and good and the Mehs.

 

Not using any context, however, is not really fair. There are degrees of difficulties. Would the manager of a girls softball team suck if they were beaten by the Yanks?

 

I know that is an extreme example, and I await comments about the ability of Bloom’s team to beat that girl’s team. I know you hate going back to the past and DD, but do you think he’d have been able to build a ring team in Bloom’s winter spending budgets?

 

Sure, he’d have emptied the farm by now, and we’d likely be better, but that’s not what Henry wanted or wants. It’s an unsustainable plan unless you think Henry will just keep increasing the budget as needed. When that happens, then fine, but I doubt it ever will

 

Bloom deserves some bashing. He was hired to find gems on the cheap and has missed more than he’s hit, but he’s not oh for everything, and the roster and farm look much better than 2020, which was Bloom’s baseline.

 

The CDA’s (Cliff Denier Asses) can spin all they want about how useless farms are, but the farm made DD into a winning GM, and not just the guys he traded. It was also the guys Ben and DD did not trade.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I have always assumed that every team's PR dept. has a representative posing as a fan posting positives on forums like this.

 

In this age of multi-media misinformation, it would be surprising if they didn't.

[Hugh2]

Advanced Scout who works for an AL East rival plus it was talked about on eei by spear last trade deadline Duran was the primary prospect plus others

 

Lol, I don’t even know why Im lowering myself here but I’ll bite. Duran is the 3rd MAYBE 2nd guy in a 3-4 prospect package to get you an ACE last spring, now maybe he’s the 4th guy.

 

Let’s go by real world examples and not sports talk. Talk is easy, talk is cheap. When did a guy of Durans prospect ranking every headline a trade for a 1A starting pitcher? I gave you a specific real world example of a pitcher the likes of your desired caliber commanding a MUCH higher cost, I expect the same in return.

 

Again…..I’ll wait but not expecting much.

[moonslav59]

Lol, I don’t even know why Im lowering myself here but I’ll bite. Duran is the 3rd MAYBE 2nd guy in a 3-4 prospect package to get you an ACE last spring, now maybe he’s the 4th guy.

 

Let’s go by real world examples and not sports talk. Talk is easy, talk is cheap. When did a guy of Durans prospect ranking every headline a trade for a 1A starting pitcher? I gave you a specific real world example of a pitcher the likes of your desired caliber commanding a MUCH higher cost, I expect the same in return.

 

Again…..I’ll wait but not expecting much.

 

Don’t feed the trolls. He will just respond with more falsehoods, made up stats and alternative facts.

 

He even contradicts himself, often in the same post.

[notin]

There is a small but very active group of posters who , for their own reasons, love and are very loyal to Chaim Bloom . They were thrilled when he was hired and continue to support him. I call them the PBA , Protect Blooms Ass. Unfortunately, the results have not been there. They are now giving all the usual excuses. They tout last season as a roaring success . But it really wasn't . Now the team has regressed. Unlike them , Red Sox Nation is not satisfied. These average type fans are not " deep thinkers" . They don't spend a lot of time on BTV and fangraphs websites. But they want to see good baseball. And , right now , they know they are not seeing it. And they are not happy. No matter how you spin it , Bloom is the man in charge. He has to be accountable for the situation . And the situation is not good , in the cellar and 18 games behind the Yankees. I don't think he will be fired , but it should certainly be under consideration.

 

The important thing to remember here is dgalehouse will be the first poster to tell you how respectful he is of others’ opinions and how he doesn’t engage in derogatory behavior.

[moonslav59]

Thanks. I think that when you are the boss , you have to be responsible for the results . Excuses , spin , blaming others , etc just doesn't cut it.

 

So, make sure you give credit where credit is due on the budget and roster/farm status he left for the next GM.

 

No spin, blame or deflections.

[Old Red]

No doubt, Bloom has made enough choices to be judged on what he’s done bad and good and the Mehs.

 

Not using any context, however, is not really fair. There are degrees of difficulties. Would the manager of a girls softball team suck if they were beaten by the Yanks?

 

I know that is an extreme example, and I await comments about the ability of Bloom’s team to beat that girl’s team. I know you hate going back to the past and DD, but do you think he’d have been able to build a ring team in Bloom’s winter spending budgets?

 

Sure, he’d have emptied the farm by now, and we’d likely be better, but that’s not what Henry wanted or wants. It’s an unsustainable plan unless you think Henry will just keep increasing the budget as needed. When that happens, then fine, but I doubt it ever will

 

Bloom deserves some bashing. He was hired to find gems on the cheap and has missed more than he’s hit, but he’s not oh for everything, and the roster and farm look much better than 2020, which was Bloom’s baseline.

 

The CDA’s (Cliff Denier Asses) can spin all they want about how useless farms are, but the farm made DD into a winning GM, and not just the guys he traded. It was also the guys Ben and DD did not trade.

 

I agree with you that Theo, or DD wouldn’t have worked for this JH, but Bloom did, and he knew what he was in for like trading Mookie that you pat Bloom on the back for for getting D’s, or just saying the Sox were losers in the trade. Just because the Sox farm boys are rated higher now Does Not guarantee success in the future. If the Casases, or Mayers don’t turn out like they have already been dubbed then good luck with higher rankings. The Sox to me were good enough before Bloom got hired, and as of right now I don’t think you can say they are better. More prospects/suspects, or not.

[notin]

So, make sure you give credit where credit is due on the budget and roster/farm status he left for the next GM.

 

No spin, blame or deflections.

 

 

At least he stopped justifying emptying the farm based on the prospects’ performance. I’m sure Kopech’s emergence and Espinal’s All Star appearance has nothing to do with that.

 

There’s nothing wrong with supporting the 2018 victory in defense of these deals. But pretending they aren’t still debts, bad contracts and less farm left over from that spending binge is flat out ignorant.

 

2018 was great. But the Sox are still paying some of the bills. Not the GMs fault…

[notin]

I agree with you that Theo, or DD wouldn’t have worked for this JH, but Bloom did, and he knew what he was in for like trading Mookie that you pat Bloom on the back for for getting D’s, or just saying the Sox were losers in the trade. Just because the Sox farm boys are rated higher now Does Not guarantee success in the future. If the Casases, or Mayers don’t turn out like they have already been dubbed then good luck with higher rankings. The Sox to me were good enough before Bloom got hired, and as of right now I don’t think you can say they are better. More prospects/suspects, or not.

 

Nobody patted Bloom on the back for dealing Mookie. But it was the right move. Mookie already turned down $300milliom and wasn’t going to save that awful 2020 team that would later lose Chris Sale for the season anyway…

[dgalehouse]

There is no point in rehashing and comparing , for the umpteenth time , the first three years of Dombrowski's and Bloom's tenures. That horse has been interred at Calumet Farms. It's history. Let it rest.

[jad]

If Bloom isn't allowed to tear down this team, then he should be fired. Because if you won't let the guy do what he is good at (trading) then what's the point of having him there.

 

As much as he has helped the sox in their rebuild of the farm, the farm is still VERY tenuous and not deep. The farm, as is, cannot sustain a rebuild. And if you don't have the major prospect core for a rebuild (either via trade or promotion), you need to rely on the FA market. The FA market this winter sucks, honestly and truly. If you think it is a foregone conclusion that the Yankees sign Judge (which I do, the only way Judge goes elsewhere is if he truly wants to move back to Cali. Hal will give an edict to sign him for whatever it costs), then you're left with Trea Turner who isn't the biggest need and a bunch of has beens offensively.

 

Bloom needs to be able to deal Bogey, JD, Eo, Vaz, etc to build up the prospect cache to start building. If he cannot do it, the rebuild will probably take another 2 years on top of the 2 years already expected

 

Who needs a good FA market when you can re-sign the players you have? I don't see how you can argue Bloom has done a good job with the farm when after 3 years it is, in your words 'VERY tenuous and not deep." What are we hoping with that haul of prospects? that we might find the next Dalbec? Duran? Sanchez?

[dgalehouse]

You can like it or not like it , but Bloom is going to be remembered as the.guy who.traded Mookie. That is not something I would want on my record.

[Old Red]

Nobody patted Bloom on the back for dealing Mookie. But it was the right move. Mookie already turned down $300milliom and wasn’t going to save that awful 2020 team that would later lose Chris Sale for the season anyway…

 

Patting Bloom on the back was about the Grades Bloom got back from some of the publications, which was mostly D’s, and just plain saying the Sox were losers in the deal, because to some on here getting a D was not a failing grade. Small semantics. Bottom line a HOF was traded, which he hasn’t been replaced yet, and may take years to do so.

[Old Red]

You can like it or not like it , but Bloom is going to be remembered as the.guy who.traded Mookie. That is not something I would want on my record.

 

As the guy who traded Mookie, and didn’t do well in doing so.

[Old Red]

The important thing to remember here is dgalehouse will be the first poster to tell you how respectful he is of others’ opinions and how he doesn’t engage in derogatory behavior.

 

No the important thing to remember is that dgalehouse was to me right in what he said much to the chagrin of others.

[notin]

As the guy who traded Mookie, and didn’t do well in doing so.

 

Actually he did pretty well when you look at the history of these superstar deals. He had three options.

 

1. The Dodgers package headlined by Verdugo

2. The Padres package that included Wil Myers, Joey Lucchesi and (I think) Cal Quantrill

3. Hold Mookie for one 60 game season on a team that eventually lost Chris Sale and would not have had Price on the mound, but would still be paying him $31million today.

 

What was the right choice?

[notin]

No the important thing to remember is that dgalehouse was to me right in what he said much to the chagrin of others.

 

 

That’s because dgalehouse thinks MLB is a redraft fantasy league with no long term repercussions beyond the current calendar year…

[moonslav59]

At least he stopped justifying emptying the farm based on the prospects’ performance. I’m sure Kopech’s emergence and Espinal’s All Star appearance has nothing to do with that.

 

There’s nothing wrong with supporting the 2018 victory in defense of these deals. But pretending they aren’t still debts, bad contracts and less farm left over from that spending binge is flat out ignorant.

 

2018 was great. But the Sox are still paying some of the bills. Not the GMs fault…

 

Now, it's all about ignoring the past.

 

Seriously, imagine DD trying to build up from the 2019 team with the 2020 and 2021 winter spending budgets.

 

I suppose we could imagine him trading Casas, Rafaela, Bello and others and had a better team than we had, but right off the bat, how could he have reached the 2020 budget with Betts and Price still on the roster? How could he add even more pieces? Does he pick Whitlock on Rule 5?

 

I'm not saying Bloom is beyond criticism or undeserving of it, but ignoring the context or the severity of that context is easier to do for some than others.

 

[Bellhorn04]

You can like it or not like it , but Bloom is going to be remembered as the.guy who.traded Mookie. That is not something I would want on my record.

 

It won't be remembered that way by anyone who understands the situation.

[moonslav59]

Nobody patted Bloom on the back for dealing Mookie. But it was the right move. Mookie already turned down $300milliom and wasn’t going to save that awful 2020 team that would later lose Chris Sale for the season anyway…

 

To be fair, it's a justifiable point to claim Bloom could have gotten better than Verdugo, Downs and Wong for a 60 day season of Betts, but I'd like to see some verifiable proof of what else was offered.

 

[notin]

Patting Bloom on the back was about the Grades Bloom got back from some of the publications, which was mostly D’s, and just plain saying the Sox were losers in the deal, because to some on here getting a D was not a failing grade. Small semantics. Bottom line a HOF was traded, which he hasn’t been replaced yet, and may take years to do so.

 

 

The problem with all these grading websites is they live in a world where there were other options. I’m all for believing there were discussions involving better players no one published, but I also believe for obvious reasons they didn’t get very far.

 

There were 3 options I mentioned above.

 

So option 1 is a D in your opinion.

 

But which of options 2 or 3 represented a better grade?

[moonslav59]

To be fair, it's a justifiable point to claim Bloom could have gotten better than Verdugo, Downs and Wong for a 60 day season of Betts, but I'd like to see some verifiable proof of what else was offered.

 

 

Also, remember, half of Price's salary dump was part of the Betts deal.

[notin]

It won't be remembered that way by anyone who understands the situation.

 

How many people remember the name of the GM who traded Miguel Cabrera to Detroit?

[Bellhorn04]

To be fair, it's a justifiable point to claim Bloom could have gotten better than Verdugo, Downs and Wong for a 60 day season of Betts, but I'd like to see some verifiable proof of what else was offered.

 

 

From what we heard the Padres were the only other team in play.

 

It's possible we could have gotten more talent if the Dodgers didn't take on $45 million of Price's money.

[moonslav59]

There is no point in rehashing and comparing , for the umpteenth time , the first three years of Dombrowski's and Bloom's tenures. That horse has been interred at Calumet Farms. It's history. Let it rest.

 

How convenient.

 

The whole point of judging trades before the prospects have matured and finished their years of team control was mentioned to you, and now that the time is near, you want to shuffle the facts away.

 

(BTW, I was fine with nearly all of what DD did, but I knew we faced the consequences you ignored then, and now blame Bloom for it coming true.)

[Bellhorn04]

How many people remember the name of the GM who traded Miguel Cabrera to Detroit?

 

And I think even on Talksox, if we took a poll on which individual is most responsible for Mookie being gone, Henry would win decisively.