Fire Bloom .

[Old Red]

If Bloom isn't allowed to tear down this team, then he should be fired. Because if you won't let the guy do what he is good at (trading) then what's the point of having him there.

 

As much as he has helped the sox in their rebuild of the farm, the farm is still VERY tenuous and not deep. The farm, as is, cannot sustain a rebuild. And if you don't have the major prospect core for a rebuild (either via trade or promotion), you need to rely on the FA market. The FA market this winter sucks, honestly and truly. If you think it is a foregone conclusion that the Yankees sign Judge (which I do, the only way Judge goes elsewhere is if he truly wants to move back to Cali. Hal will give an edict to sign him for whatever it costs), then you're left with Trea Turner who isn't the biggest need and a bunch of has beens offensively.

 

Bloom needs to be able to deal Bogey, JD, Eo, Vaz, etc to build up the prospect cache to start building. If he cannot do it, the rebuild will probably take another 2 years on top of the 2 years already expected

Has the Red Sox won 4 championships since you remember 2004 doing it the way you are suggesting? Not only no, but hell no!

[Bellhorn04]

Do you think that JH of today would have the same budget as the JH of when he first arrived in Boston? I don’t, and I don’t think it has anything to do with his time.

 

So your theory is that he's gotten cheap.

[jacksonianmarch]

JH realized that doing thing DD’s way would skyrocket cost and is ultimately unsustainable. What I don’t think he knew at the time was how bad the Sox farm had become.

[jacksonianmarch]

Has the Red Sox won 4 championships since you remember 2004 doing it the way you are suggesting? Not only no, but hell no!

 

The 2004 Sox were built by a genius mind who used his farm to get top notch talent. Didn’t hurt that Ortiz fell into his lap.

 

The 2007 Sox were a very home grown club, which shows you how quickly you can reload when you’ve got a good farm

[JDavis76]

If Bloom isn't allowed to tear down this team, then he should be fired. Because if you won't let the guy do what he is good at (trading) then what's the point of having him there.

 

As much as he has helped the sox in their rebuild of the farm, the farm is still VERY tenuous and not deep. The farm, as is, cannot sustain a rebuild. And if you don't have the major prospect core for a rebuild (either via trade or promotion), you need to rely on the FA market. The FA market this winter sucks, honestly and truly. If you think it is a foregone conclusion that the Yankees sign Judge (which I do, the only way Judge goes elsewhere is if he truly wants to move back to Cali. Hal will give an edict to sign him for whatever it costs), then you're left with Trea Turner who isn't the biggest need and a bunch of has beens offensively.

 

Bloom needs to be able to deal Bogey, JD, Eo, Vaz, etc to build up the prospect cache to start building. If he cannot do it, the rebuild will probably take another 2 years on top of the 2 years already expected

 

I think it's pretty clear that hang 'em chaim is in over his head.

 

The bloom is off the rose, fire him.

[notin]

Stork.

 

“By all accounts Duran gets you a 1A pitcher”

 

That’s the biggest made up load of garbage I’ve ever heard. Here’s a challenge, fine ONE account, just one where Duran could have landed you an ACE?

 

The Sox traded 4 legit prospects to land Sale. Two of them being ranked much higher than Duran and one of them being ranked #1 overall. That would be Kopech and Moncada.

 

I checked my work…..now show me yours.

 

At the time last July, Duran had roughly the same value as Berrios on BTV. I pointed this out and wanted that deal done.

 

That, as far as I know, is the one and only link. No one has stated Minnesota (or any team) wanted Duran.

 

But that statement does show how incredibly stupid Stork is. He’s trying to blame Bloom for overvaluing Duran, but he’s doing so in a way that says “lots of GMs overvalued Duran and would give up a top tier starter for him.” But Bloom was the problem?

 

And the weird part is, he probably still won’t understand that…

[Maxbialystock]

JH realized that doing thing DD’s way would skyrocket cost and is ultimately unsustainable. What I don’t think he knew at the time was how bad the Sox farm had become.

 

This makes sense to me.

 

About Bloom (since this is a thread about firing him): he was very successful at Tampa where he had time to build a system for acquiring and training good players while at the same time letting go of high-priced stars like Price and Longoria (although Longoria did stay until age 31 and was paid $13M).

 

To me, especially this year, I see the product of Bloom's "book" (system) in the way Rays players are routinely good running the bases, playing defense, hitting when it counts, pitching, relief pitching, etc.

 

On the other hand, this year's Sox seem to be weak in all areas despite having four players--Devers, Bogey, JDM, and Story--who have been very good in the past and either have been paid accordingly (Bogey, JDM, Story) or will be (Devers). Actually, all four have decent WAR's this season: Devers 4.2, Bogey 3.8, Story 2.1, and JDM 1.0.

 

The Sox are also paying Sale, Eovaldi, and Price a combined total of $63M and getting--wait for it!--+0.6 WAR for Eovaldi, +0.1 WAR for Sale, and 0.000000 WAR for Price.

[notin]

The 2004 Sox were built by a genius mind who used his farm to get top notch talent. Didn’t hurt that Ortiz fell into his lap.

 

The 2007 Sox were a very home grown club, which shows you how quickly you can reload when you’ve got a good farm

 

The 2007 Sox were hardly homegrown. Youkilis, Pedroia, Papelbon, Lester. And maybe some ancillary pieces.

 

I think Ellsbury debuted, but he wasn’t central…

[JDavis76]

This makes sense to me.

 

About Bloom (since this is a thread about firing him): he was very successful at Tampa where he had time to build a system for acquiring and training good players while at the same time letting go of high-priced stars like Price and Longoria (although Longoria did stay until age 31 and was paid $13M).

 

To me, especially this year, I see the product of Bloom's "book" (system) in the way Rays players are routinely good running the bases, playing defense, hitting when it counts, pitching, relief pitching, etc.

 

On the other hand, this year's Sox seem to be weak in all areas despite having four players--Devers, Bogey, JDM, and Story--who have been very good in the past and either have been paid accordingly (Bogey, JDM, Story) or will be (Devers). Actually, all four have decent WAR's this season: Devers 4.2, Bogey 3.8, Story 2.1, and JDM 1.0.

 

The Sox are also paying Sale, Eovaldi, and Price a combined total of $63M and getting--wait for it!--+0.6 WAR for Eovaldi, +0.1 WAR for Sale, and 0.000000 WAR for Price.

 

Nonsense, he was never the guy in charge in tampa.

 

He's in way over his head and it shows, top 6 payroll and sub .500 in last place......

[moonslav59]

Jacko,

You know I respect you, but you need to re-evaluate the Sox farm. It is way deeper than you give it credit for. Their A- and rookie league teams have som of the most promising prospects we have in the system. Our pitching prospects may not look great but it’s by far the deepest it’s been in at least a decade.

We have a bunch of ML ready prospects ready by 23, a bunch more by 24 and even more in 25 and beyond. Add some wild card hopefuls with decent ceilings like Song, Kavadas, Hickey and German and this farm is perhaps deeper than any farm we’ve had under Henry. Not the best, but deeper.

[Bellhorn04]

If Bloom isn't allowed to tear down this team, then he should be fired. Because if you won't let the guy do what he is good at (trading) then what's the point of having him there.

 

As much as he has helped the sox in their rebuild of the farm, the farm is still VERY tenuous and not deep. The farm, as is, cannot sustain a rebuild. And if you don't have the major prospect core for a rebuild (either via trade or promotion), you need to rely on the FA market. The FA market this winter sucks, honestly and truly. If you think it is a foregone conclusion that the Yankees sign Judge (which I do, the only way Judge goes elsewhere is if he truly wants to move back to Cali. Hal will give an edict to sign him for whatever it costs), then you're left with Trea Turner who isn't the biggest need and a bunch of has beens offensively.

 

Bloom needs to be able to deal Bogey, JD, Eo, Vaz, etc to build up the prospect cache to start building. If he cannot do it, the rebuild will probably take another 2 years on top of the 2 years already expected

 

Bogey has already been directly informed that he won't be traded.

 

One thing you're leaving out of the equation is that the Red Sox will have a lot of money available for new acquisitions, should JH choose to spend it.

 

And another last place finish, plus falling attendance, just might motivate him in that direction.

[notin]

JH realized that doing thing DD’s way would skyrocket cost and is ultimately unsustainable. What I don’t think he knew at the time was how bad the Sox farm had become.

 

But tearing everything down would be stupid.

 

The Sox are being dragged down by a few contracts they will never be able to move, like Sale. And some would say, Story.

 

Moving Devers to cover this would be stupid…

[Bellhorn04]

Stork.

 

“By all accounts Duran gets you a 1A pitcher”

 

That’s the biggest made up load of garbage I’ve ever heard. Here’s a challenge, fine ONE account, just one where Duran could have landed you an ACE?

 

The Sox traded 4 legit prospects to land Sale. Two of them being ranked much higher than Duran and one of them being ranked #1 overall. That would be Kopech and Moncada.

 

I checked my work…..now show me yours.

 

I think he has his own personal baseball trade rumors and analysis site - STORK DROPPINGS.com.

[JDavis76]

I think he has his own personal baseball trade rumors and analysis site - STORK DROPPINGS.com.

 

It's right up there with moonslop.net

[moonslav59]

But tearing everything down would be stupid.

 

The Sox are being dragged down by a few contracts they will never be able to move, like Sale. And some would say, Story.

 

Moving Devers to cover this would be stupid…

 

There is some logic in stating that re building piece meal is more difficult, and the Astros example of having a complete tear down and then what they have now is one model of success, but yes, it’s not the only one.

Teams that spend like we do are not likely to totally tear down everything.

 

Extending Devers would keep fans interested and would be around for the next cycle of a more moderate fire sale. The other factor ignored is that we are already in year 3 of the rebuild. We just happen to have 9 expiring contracts plus a couple options we may turn down. This doesn’t mean this makes it year one of a 4 or 5 year rebuild plan.

 

We have some exciting rule 5 additions to be made this winter and a clean slate on a few positions and contracts that were dragging us down, anyway.

 

If we spend near the tax line or a little above, we can easily be better than the 2021 team.

[jacksonianmarch]

Bogey has already been directly informed that he won't be traded.

 

One thing you're leaving out of the equation is that the Red Sox will have a lot of money available for new acquisitions, should JH choose to spend it.

 

And another last place finish, plus falling attendance, just might motivate him in that direction.

 

Having lots of money but nobody to pay is a problem.

[dgalehouse]

There is a small but very active group of posters who , for their own reasons, love and are very loyal to Chaim Bloom . They were thrilled when he was hired and continue to support him. I call them the PBA , Protect Blooms Ass. Unfortunately, the results have not been there. They are now giving all the usual excuses. They tout last season as a roaring success . But it really wasn't . Now the team has regressed. Unlike them , Red Sox Nation is not satisfied. These average type fans are not " deep thinkers" . They don't spend a lot of time on BTV and fangraphs websites. But they want to see good baseball. And , right now , they know they are not seeing it. And they are not happy. No matter how you spin it , Bloom is the man in charge. He has to be accountable for the situation . And the situation is not good , in the cellar and 18 games behind the Yankees. I don't think he will be fired , but it should certainly be under consideration.

[Bellhorn04]

Having lots of money but nobody to pay is a problem.

 

I guess it's time to put together a list of 2023 free agents.

[moonslav59]

There is a small but very active group of posters who , for their own reasons, love and are very loyal to Chaim Bloom . They were thrilled when he was hired and continue to support him. I call them the PBA , Protect Blooms Ass. Unfortunately, the results have not been there. They are now giving all the usual excuses. They tout last season as a roaring success . But it really wasn't . Now the team has regressed. Unlike them , Red Sox Nation is not satisfied. These average type fans are not " deep thinkers" . They don't spend a lot of time on BTV and fangraphs websites. But they want to see good baseball. And , right now , they know they are not seeing it. And they are not happy. No matter how you spin it , Bloom is the man in charge. He has to be accountable for the situation . And the situation is not good , in the cellar and 18 games behind the Yankees. I don't think he will be fired , but it should certainly be under consideration.

 

The cliff sucks, doesn’t it.

[jacksonianmarch]

Jacko,

You know I respect you, but you need to re-evaluate the Sox farm. It is way deeper than you give it credit for. Their A- and rookie league teams have som of the most promising prospects we have in the system. Our pitching prospects may not look great but it’s by far the deepest it’s been in at least a decade.

We have a bunch of ML ready prospects ready by 23, a bunch more by 24 and even more in 25 and beyond. Add some wild card hopefuls with decent ceilings like Song, Kavadas, Hickey and German and this farm is perhaps deeper than any farm we’ve had under Henry. Not the best, but deeper.

 

I don't think we are speaking the same language here. Teams emerge from "rebuilds" by having a core group of players who you build around or a couple home grown or cheaply acquired players who turn into superstars.

 

The sox farm is world's better than it was in 2019, but the only two guys who really profile as All-Star level players are Casas and Mayer, and some of the bloom has fallen off Casas' rose lately. Mayer isnt gonna be ready until 2024 at the earliest. Bello and Mata have great ceilings, but they also could end up as multi inning relievers if they struggle with command (like Bello is doing now). There is much to be decided and it will be decided in 2023, which is why you aren't able to pull yourself out of this nosedive in one season.

 

Right now, the Yanks are lapping you and the rest of the AL is pulling away. 2022 looks like a bust right now. After 2022, this is your returning team

 

C- Wong

1B- Casas

2B- Downs

SS- Story

3B- Devers

LF- Verdugo

CF- Duran

RF- ??

DH- Dalbec

 

That lineup has holes inside of holes. You aren't fixing that internally and with the FA market that is out there, you aren't fixing it externally. While you may have better depth than before, you don't have the depth to acquire talent in the offseason when it comes at a premium. Let's look at rotation

 

SP1- Sale- never stays healthy, breaks bones laughing

SP2- Pivetta- really a SP5, but this is what you got

SP3- Bello- high ceiling, looks like cannon fodder right now

SP4- Crawford- low ceiling, probably better off as a long reliever

SP5- Winckowski- sucks big time

 

CL- Houck- solid stuff, very inconsistent

SU- Whitlock- top notch, can give innings, injury risk

 

In the rotation, you could need as many as 4 starters to be relevant again.

 

All I am saying is the sox system cannot kick start this team on it's own as there are too many holes. It still doesn't have enough impactful guys and doesn't have the depth to start the upswing phase of a rebuild. You will need a few years to kick start it and you can shorten that window if you deal off some expiring contract players for some prospects of value

[Old Red]

There is a small but very active group of posters who , for their own reasons, love and are very loyal to Chaim Bloom . They were thrilled when he was hired and continue to support him. I call them the PBA , Protect Blooms Ass. Unfortunately, the results have not been there. They are now giving all the usual excuses. They tout last season as a roaring success . But it really wasn't . Now the team has regressed. Unlike them , Red Sox Nation is not satisfied. These average type fans are not " deep thinkers" . They don't spend a lot of time on BTV and fangraphs websites. But they want to see good baseball. And , right now , they know they are not seeing it. And they are not happy. No matter how you spin it , Bloom is the man in charge. He has to be accountable for the situation . And the situation is not good , in the cellar and 18 games behind the Yankees. I don't think he will be fired , but it should certainly be under consideration.

 

Very well said, and 100% correct. You are dead on about the PBA, but the big question is why, why, why Nancy Kerrigan. You are right that the Ave fan are not that deep, and I believe could give a rats ass about analytics, or know, or care who is doing what in Salem, or Greenville. What they do care about is who’s on first, and for the last two years not very much at all, and that is on on Bloom. I have said from when Bloom got hired he was in over his head, and I still feel that way.

[moonslav59]

I guess it's time to put together a list of 2023 free agents.

 

$90-110M should get a lot.

 

This will be Bloom’s biggest challenge.

[jacksonianmarch]

The cliff sucks, doesn’t it.

 

I heard a term last night. The Bloominati

[jad]

There is a small but very active group of posters who , for their own reasons, love and are very loyal to Chaim Bloom . They were thrilled when he was hired and continue to support him. I call them the PBA , Protect Blooms Ass. Unfortunately, the results have not been there. They are now giving all the usual excuses. They tout last season as a roaring success . But it really wasn't . Now the team has regressed. Unlike them , Red Sox Nation is not satisfied. These average type fans are not " deep thinkers" . They don't spend a lot of time on BTV and fangraphs websites. But they want to see good baseball. And , right now , they know they are not seeing it. And they are not happy. No matter how you spin it , Bloom is the man in charge. He has to be accountable for the situation . And the situation is not good , in the cellar and 18 games behind the Yankees. I don't think he will be fired , but it should certainly be under consideration.

 

OMG I agree entirely with you. Give me a minute ... I need to sit down!

[Bellhorn04]

I heard a term last night. The Bloominati

 

We also heard Theo Inepstein, Benny the Boob and Desperate Dave.

 

A lot of fans are miserable pricks who enjoy dumping on other people.

[moonslav59]

We also heard Theo Inepstein, Benny the Boob and Desperate Dave.

 

A lot of fans are miserable pricks who enjoy dumping on other people.

 

I think Coffee Boy was Ben’s most popular nickname.

[Bellhorn04]

I think Coffee Boy was Ben’s most popular nickname.

 

Fair enough.

[moonslav59]

OMG I agree entirely with you. Give me a minute ... I need to sit down!

 

Sit down, stand down and stand by.

[MADSTORK]

Stork.

 

“By all accounts Duran gets you a 1A pitcher”

 

That’s the biggest made up load of garbage I’ve ever heard. Here’s a challenge, fine ONE account, just one where Duran could have landed you an ACE?

 

The Sox traded 4 legit prospects to land Sale. Two of them being ranked much higher than Duran and one of them being ranked #1 overall. That would be Kopech and Moncada.

 

I checked my work…..now show me yours.

 

Advanced Scout who works for an AL East rival plus it was talked about on eei by spear last trade deadline Duran was the primary prospect plus others

[MADSTORK]

If Bloom isn't allowed to tear down this team, then he should be fired. Because if you won't let the guy do what he is good at (trading) then what's the point of having him there.

 

As much as he has helped the sox in their rebuild of the farm, the farm is still VERY tenuous and not deep. The farm, as is, cannot sustain a rebuild. And if you don't have the major prospect core for a rebuild (either via trade or promotion), you need to rely on the FA market. The FA market this winter sucks, honestly and truly. If you think it is a foregone conclusion that the Yankees sign Judge (which I do, the only way Judge goes elsewhere is if he truly wants to move back to Cali. Hal will give an edict to sign him for whatever it costs), then you're left with Trea Turner who isn't the biggest need and a bunch of has beens offensively.

 

Bloom needs to be able to deal Bogey, JD, Eo, Vaz, etc to build up the prospect cache to start building. If he cannot do it, the rebuild will probably take another 2 years on top of the 2 years already expected

 

What Farm rebuild?

Mayer fell in his lap! There is no Pitching development going on for the exception of Bello

 

Like I said Betts AB Renfro return is zero! The only prospect who has an upside is Winkowski and even that’s a stretch

Quantity is not quality