Fire Bloom .

[jacksonianmarch]

Not having a fire sale was "largely" for PR purposes, I don't disagree with that.

 

But hell, a lot of running a baseball team is for PR purposes. The fans pay the bills.

 

It is true, but next year you're looking at filling holes the size of texas. There arent enough impact FAs out there to fill your holes and you don't have the minor league talent yet to fill the holes internally or be used for trades. Look at this team...

 

C- McGuire- he has sucked everywhere, now has been good in a SSS. He at least brings good D

1B- Hosmer- cannot hit

2B- Arroyo- career backup

SS- Story- solid, but injury prone

3B- Devers- MVP of the team

LF- Pham- really a glorified backup

CF- Kike- perpetual occupier of the IL

RF- Verdugo- solid player

DH- Casas?? Dalbec?? Cordero??

 

The above lineup is destined to be back of the field in production. Devers will never see a pitch to hit. You need at least two impact bats to be added to make it work

 

SP1- Sale- really?

SP2- Pivetta- a #4-5 at best

SP3- Bello- probably needs some more AAA time

SP4- Crawford- should be in the pen

SP5- Winck- totally sucks

 

You literally need an entirely new rotation. Totally new. Mata waiting in the wings is good, but he also is just coming off TJS, who knows how long it takes for him to get going and if he takes the next step

 

So for the rotation and lineup, you need at least 3 starters and at least 2 impact bats in the same offseason not to mention a closer. Plus you need to figure out if you are extending Devers and allocating cash for that. There are just too many holes.

[Bellhorn04]

I mean, I'm not pro trading Devers....but if you're NOT going to resign him this deadline or last offseason would have been the year to do it. Even really great players aren't going to return as much if you're only getting 1 or a 1/2 a year of control. E.G. Mookie Betts trade.

 

I think the reality is they don't know if they're going to be able to re-sign Devers on a livable deal or not yet.

[Hugh2]

It is true, but next year you're looking at filling holes the size of texas. There arent enough impact FAs out there to fill your holes and you don't have the minor league talent yet to fill the holes internally or be used for trades. Look at this team...

 

C- McGuire- he has sucked everywhere, now has been good in a SSS. He at least brings good D

1B- Hosmer- cannot hit

2B- Arroyo- career backup

SS- Story- solid, but injury prone

3B- Devers- MVP of the team

LF- Pham- really a glorified backup

CF- Kike- perpetual occupier of the IL

RF- Verdugo- solid player

DH- Casas?? Dalbec?? Cordero??

 

The above lineup is destined to be back of the field in production. Devers will never see a pitch to hit. You need at least two impact bats to be added to make it work

 

SP1- Sale- really?

SP2- Pivetta- a #4-5 at best

SP3- Bello- probably needs some more AAA time

SP4- Crawford- should be in the pen

SP5- Winck- totally sucks

 

You literally need an entirely new rotation. Totally new. Mata waiting in the wings is good, but he also is just coming off TJS, who knows how long it takes for him to get going and if he takes the next step

 

So for the rotation and lineup, you need at least 3 starters and at least 2 impact bats in the same offseason not to mention a closer. Plus you need to figure out if you are extending Devers and allocating cash for that. There are just too many holes.

 

This is a lineup that consists of ZERO moves being made. Assuming Bogey opts out and the Sox don't pick up Phams option (they wont') they're close to 70-80 million under the cap, and JH always either goes over or comes up close to it. You're also assuming the worse case scenario for everyone and I don't know why you're not plugging Casas in at 1B.

[jacksonianmarch]

I think the reality is they don't know if they're going to be able to re-sign Devers on a livable deal or not yet.

 

They can re-sign Devers if they give him market rate. The problem is, will it hinder their roster building going forward OR would a deal of Devers help them better in the long run.

 

I know the return isnt equal, but the return for Soto was MASSIVE. Gore, Abrams and Hassell was an enormous haul. Add in Ruiz and Gray last year in the Scherzer/Turner deals and they're set up with potential foundational pieces for years to come. If that type of haul exists for Boston, you need to take it.

[Bellhorn04]

It is true, but next year you're looking at filling holes the size of texas. There arent enough impact FAs out there to fill your holes and you don't have the minor league talent yet to fill the holes internally or be used for trades. Look at this team...

 

C- McGuire- he has sucked everywhere, now has been good in a SSS. He at least brings good D

1B- Hosmer- cannot hit

2B- Arroyo- career backup

SS- Story- solid, but injury prone

3B- Devers- MVP of the team

LF- Pham- really a glorified backup

CF- Kike- perpetual occupier of the IL

RF- Verdugo- solid player

DH- Casas?? Dalbec?? Cordero??

 

The above lineup is destined to be back of the field in production. Devers will never see a pitch to hit. You need at least two impact bats to be added to make it work

 

SP1- Sale- really?

SP2- Pivetta- a #4-5 at best

SP3- Bello- probably needs some more AAA time

SP4- Crawford- should be in the pen

SP5- Winck- totally sucks

 

You literally need an entirely new rotation. Totally new. Mata waiting in the wings is good, but he also is just coming off TJS, who knows how long it takes for him to get going and if he takes the next step

 

So for the rotation and lineup, you need at least 3 starters and at least 2 impact bats in the same offseason not to mention a closer. Plus you need to figure out if you are extending Devers and allocating cash for that. There are just too many holes.

 

Neither Story nor Kike are as injury-prone as you just made them sound. You're not really an objective or fact-backed observer.

[Hugh2]

Catchers are also notorious for being late bloomers, McGuire might surprise people next year. I'm not getting my hopes up and my best guess is he's going to be a massive upgrade over Plawecki, but the Sox really like him. Him and Wong might make a great platoon.

[jacksonianmarch]

Kike hit the IL this year and missed most of the season

Kike hit the IL last year and missed 2 weeks.

Kike has played 140 games twice in his career in his 8 full seasons.

 

Story was on the IL last year with an elbow injury. This elbow injury was blamed for his move to 2b

Story missed many games this year with a variety of injuries

You are correct, prior to last year he was an iron man

[Bellhorn04]

Kike hit the IL this year and missed most of the season

Kike hit the IL last year and missed 2 weeks.

Kike has played 140 games twice in his career in his 8 full seasons.

 

Story was on the IL last year with an elbow injury. This elbow injury was blamed for his move to 2b

Story missed many games this year with a variety of injuries

You are correct, prior to last year he was an iron man

 

Kike was a Swiss Army Knife guy for the Dodgers.

[Hugh2]

Kike hit the IL this year and missed most of the season

Kike hit the IL last year and missed 2 weeks.

Kike has played 140 games twice in his career in his 8 full seasons.

 

Story was on the IL last year with an elbow injury. This elbow injury was blamed for his move to 2b

Story missed many games this year with a variety of injuries

You are correct, prior to last year he was an iron man

 

First off, saying he played a season and spent TWO weeks during that season the DL doesn't make the case you think it does. Also, for the majority of his career, he has been a super utility guy and spent a few of his younger seasons as a UP/Down guy and got at bats in the minors. He was never really viewed or used as a starter until very recently. So you're being very misleading, probably not on purpose.

[Old Red]

I think the reality is they don't know if they're going to be able to re-sign Devers on a livable deal or not yet.

 

Don’t you think they should have found this out say like 2 years ago?

[jacksonianmarch]

Either way, even if both are 140 game mainstays in your lineup, that lineup is weak.

 

1. Hernandez

2. Devers

3. Story

4. Casas

5. Verdugo

6. Pham

7. Arroyo

8. Hosmer

9. McGuire

 

Thats a pretty terrible lineup

[Old Red]

They can re-sign Devers if they give him market rate. The problem is, will it hinder their roster building going forward OR would a deal of Devers help them better in the long run.

 

I know the return isnt equal, but the return for Soto was MASSIVE. Gore, Abrams and Hassell was an enormous haul. Add in Ruiz and Gray last year in the Scherzer/Turner deals and they're set up with potential foundational pieces for years to come. If that type of haul exists for Boston, you need to take it.

 

Soto had 2+ years to go, and Raffy only 1, so there is a big difference there in what you could get back.

[Hugh2]

Either way, even if both are 140 game mainstays in your lineup, that lineup is weak.

 

1. Hernandez

2. Devers

3. Story

4. Casas

5. Verdugo

6. Pham

7. Arroyo

8. Hosmer

9. McGuire

 

Thats a pretty terrible lineup

 

That's not a horrible lineup. Not too different from what they have now and if they resign Bogey and are healthier it's BETTER....and they're currently 3rd in the AL in runs scored. Again, you assume the Sox aren't going to sign anyone. You really think they're going to pick up Phams option? or start Hosmer if Casas can play?

[Hugh2]

Soto had 2+ years to go, and Raffy only 1, so there is a big difference there in what you could get back.

 

Seeing what 1 year of control gets you (Mookie Betts) I almost would rather have the draft pick. Maybe not. Regardless plan A SHOULD BE to resign him.

[jacksonianmarch]

Seeing what 1 year of control gets you (Mookie Betts) I almost would rather have the draft pick. Maybe not. Regardless plan A SHOULD BE to resign him.

 

Sox got a solid major leaguer, a top 50 prospect and cash relief on David Price. The fact the prospect didn't work out is irrelevant. Heck, Wong might be the better player than Downs in the end

[Hugh2]

Sox got a solid major leaguer, a top 50 prospect and cash relief on David Price. The fact the prospect didn't work out is irrelevant. Heck, Wong might be the better player than Downs in the end

 

That's actually a fair point. It's easy to judge a trade in hindsight. You could make a deal that's good at the time and a guy doesn't pan out. Whitesox looked like they got a boatload from the Sox for Chris Sale, but in hindsight those guys did nothing.

 

If anything the premium for 1/2 a year of a player has dropped, which you could argue was the boat the Sox were in looking at the 2020 season. Of course at the time I don't think anyone had an ideal that they would only be playing 1/3 of a season either.

[Old Red]

Sox got a solid major leaguer, a top 50 prospect and cash relief on David Price. The fact the prospect didn't work out is irrelevant. Heck, Wong might be the better player than Downs in the end

 

I don’t think anyone would make a big trade for Raffy unless they were pretty sure they could resign him like the Dodgers did with Mookie.

[jacksonianmarch]

If the sox didn't require a team to offload some of Price's deal, I think the return would have been bigger. Requiring the Dodgers to essentially take on $48 mil for a glorified reliever was a LOT

[Bellhorn04]

Don’t you think they should have found this out say like 2 years ago?

 

You could ask the same question about the Yankees and Judge.

 

It's just not that simple as we'd like it to be.

[Bellhorn04]

If the sox didn't require a team to offload some of Price's deal, I think the return would have been bigger. Requiring the Dodgers to essentially take on $48 mil for a glorified reliever was a LOT

 

Right. That's why I think Bloom did fine on the trade itself.

[Hugh2]

Right. That's why I think Bloom did fine on the trade itself.

 

If Bloom was given the mandate to tarde Betts and shed payroll, which I believe he was, he did well here.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

If the sox didn't require a team to offload some of Price's deal, I think the return would have been bigger. Requiring the Dodgers to essentially take on $48 mil for a glorified reliever was a LOT

 

But that also shows you how much LA valued and wanted Mookie. Might as well tack on the $48 to his longterm contract that they obviously had every intention of offering him... and make it a $400+ million dollar investment.

 

A club willing to go that all in on one player wouldn't eventually cave to complete the trade and throw in one pitching prospect?

[Old Red]

You could ask the same question about the Yankees and Judge.

 

It's just not that simple as we'd like it to be.

 

You are right about Judge, but Atlanta doesn’t seem to have any problems getting their young players to sign early.

[moonslav59]

It was a pretty elaborate lie if that's what it was.

 

Do you suspect Bloom was ordered by ownership not to have a fire sale?

 

I would not say it couldn't have happened that way, but I see it going more like this:

 

July discussions: top brass, Bloom and probably Cora discuss all options, including a firesale of 1 year players, only. When they speak about this option, Bloom seems more willing to go this route than Kenndey, JH and probably everyone else. When they speak of going all out, nobody takes the driver's seat. They settle on not doing anything to harm the future. Then, they look for ways to make the fans think they are not giving up, while trying to improve the future as much as they can, and I think that's what they agreed to and then actually pulled off.

 

I do think, if it was totally up to Bloom, he'd have traded any and almost all FAs-to-be, he did not want to try and extend (like Kike.)

 

It's just my opinion, and this should not be viewed as just the Ray's Way. It's what any team should do when the odds are as low as they were at the end of July for the Sox.

[notin]

But that also shows you how much LA valued and wanted Mookie. Might as well tack on the $48 to his longterm contract that they obviously had every intention of offering him... and make it a $400+ million dollar investment.

 

A club willing to go that all in on one player wouldn't eventually cave to complete the trade and throw in one pitching prospect?

 

 

Do we really all know how that went down? I doubt Bloom just took first offer.

 

Getting a pitching prospect would have been great, which is why I still prefer the Graterol deal despite his persistent injuries. But it’s really hard to say Bloom pulled the trigger too quickly and LA - who didn’t need this deal nearly as much as the Sox did - would have absolutely upped the ante…

[moonslav59]

It is true, but next year you're looking at filling holes the size of texas. There arent enough impact FAs out there to fill your holes and you don't have the minor league talent yet to fill the holes internally or be used for trades. Look at this team...

 

C- McGuire- he has sucked everywhere, now has been good in a SSS. He at least brings good D

1B- Hosmer- cannot hit

2B- Arroyo- career backup

SS- Story- solid, but injury prone

3B- Devers- MVP of the team

LF- Pham- really a glorified backup

CF- Kike- perpetual occupier of the IL

RF- Verdugo- solid player

DH- Casas?? Dalbec?? Cordero??

 

The above lineup is destined to be back of the field in production. Devers will never see a pitch to hit. You need at least two impact bats to be added to make it work

 

SP1- Sale- really?

SP2- Pivetta- a #4-5 at best

SP3- Bello- probably needs some more AAA time

SP4- Crawford- should be in the pen

SP5- Winck- totally sucks

 

You literally need an entirely new rotation. Totally new. Mata waiting in the wings is good, but he also is just coming off TJS, who knows how long it takes for him to get going and if he takes the next step

 

So for the rotation and lineup, you need at least 3 starters and at least 2 impact bats in the same offseason not to mention a closer. Plus you need to figure out if you are extending Devers and allocating cash for that. There are just too many holes.

 

Posts like this give me great hope, because you have been so wrong about the Sox for many years in a row.

 

1. We will have at least $80M to spend.

2. We can trade some prospects for one key role.

3. We don't need 5 SP'er. Pivetta is a plus 4/5 SP'er ("4/5, at best?" come on! Look around, dude!), and Sale/Paxton should give us at least 33 starts between them. That's at least 2 SP'er. We can QO Wacha and not have to sign a FA SP'er for the 2 slot. We could try to count on a prospect to fill the 5 slot, and we have a lot of hopeful arms to find one (Bello/Crawford/Mata/Wink/Walter). If Bello were a Yank, you'd be pumping him up.

4. Explain about how many times Kike has been on the IL over the last 4-5 years. He's not a hulk and bulk Yankee. He's a true athlete.

5. We don't need a .700 catcher. We need a great defensive one who can handle the staff well. McGuire and Wong both seem capable and will not be a net minus, IMO.

[Old Red]

I would not say it couldn't have happened that way, but I see it going more like this:

 

July discussions: top brass, Bloom and probably Cora discuss all options, including a firesale of 1 year players, only. When they speak about this option, Bloom seems more willing to go this route than Kenndey, JH and probably everyone else. When they speak of going all out, nobody takes the driver's seat. They settle on not doing anything to harm the future. Then, they look for ways to make the fans think they are not giving up, while trying to improve the future as much as they can, and I think that's what they agreed to and then actually pulled off.

 

I do think, if it was totally up to Bloom, he'd have traded any and almost all FAs-to-be, he did not want to try and extend (like Kike.)

 

It's just my opinion, and this should not be viewed as just the Ray's Way. It's what any team should do when the odds are as low as they were at the end of July for the Sox.

A big difference in Ray’s way is the fan base. Did you see all those empty seats masquerading as fans yesterday? What you can get away with in Tampa might not go over so well in Boston. Especially with the amount of money the diehards shell out to go watch a game at Fenway.

[moonslav59]

Kike hit the IL this year and missed most of the season

Kike hit the IL last year and missed 2 weeks.

Kike has played 140 games twice in his career in his 8 full seasons.

 

Wow, 2 weeks in '21. You wish the yanks could be that healthy!

He wasn't hurt in LA, much at all. He was often platooned or was on the bench, because they had All Stars at middle IF and OF.

 

Don't confuse 140 games with being hurt.

[moonslav59]

That's not a horrible lineup. Not too different from what they have now and if they resign Bogey and are healthier it's BETTER....and they're currently 3rd in the AL in runs scored. Again, you assume the Sox aren't going to sign anyone. You really think they're going to pick up Phams option? or start Hosmer if Casas can play?

 

Yes, third before any more signings, plus we likely will not see these guys batting (much if any), next year:

.644 Dalbec (6th in PAs w 340)

.578 JBJ (9th at 290)

.697 Cordero (1oth-275)

.648 Duran (12th w 219)

.563 Plawecki (13th w 167)

.322 Sanchez (18th w 44)

.427 Downs (19th w 41)

 

That's about 1400 PAs being replaced by more from Ref and hopefully Arroyo, Pham, Hosmer, Casas and McGuire/Wong.

 

Yes, we lose some O from Vaz (7th w 318 PAs ay .759) and maybe Bogey & JD, but a small step down to Swanson and a DH that can do better than .770 is not unthinkable. Add Nimmo to RF and the expected plus at 1B with Casas/Hosmer, and we should have a amuch better offense.

 

It does not take much to improve on these positional numbers, next year:

 

.652 RF (Dugu/Ref>JBJ)

.657 1B (Casas/Hosmer>Dalbec/Cordero)

.668 CF (Kike)

.745 2B (Story)

.754 DH (Even a Hosmer or Cordero v R and Pham/Arroyo/EValdez v L should reach .754)

 

We may lose ground at..

 

.699 C

.838 SS

maybe .754 DH

 

[moonslav59]

Either way, even if both are 140 game mainstays in your lineup, that lineup is weak.

 

1. Hernandez

2. Devers

3. Story

4. Casas

5. Verdugo

6. Pham

7. Arroyo

8. Hosmer

9. McGuire

 

Thats a pretty terrible lineup

 

How's your line-up, now? Take away Judge...LOL!