Fire Bloom .

[moonslav59]

A big difference in Ray’s way is the fan base. Did you see all those empty seats masquerading as fans yesterday? What you can get away with in Tampa might not go over so well in Boston. Especially with the amount of money the diehards shell out to go watch a game at Fenway.

 

Yes, agreed, and that's why they did not do what was best for the long term. They buckled to fan pressure and maybe taking a hit on gate and cable revenue for a few months to maybe a year.

[Old Red]

Yes, agreed, and that's why they did not do what was best for the long term. They buckled to fan pressure and maybe taking a hit on gate and cable revenue for a few months to maybe a year.

 

I’m not so sure that Bloom didn’t try to get rid of Evol, and JD, but there might not of been much a demand for either one, and as it has turned out that demand would have been right.

[sk7326]

Posts like this give me great hope, because you have been so wrong about the Sox for many years in a row.

 

1. We will have at least $80M to spend.

2. We can trade some prospects for one key role.

3. We don't need 5 SP'er. Pivetta is a plus 4/5 SP'er ("4/5, at best?" come on! Look around, dude!), and Sale/Paxton should give us at least 33 starts between them. That's at least 2 SP'er. We can QO Wacha and not have to sign a FA SP'er for the 2 slot. We could try to count on a prospect to fill the 5 slot, and we have a lot of hopeful arms to find one (Bello/Crawford/Mata/Wink/Walter). If Bello were a Yank, you'd be pumping him up.

4. Explain about how many times Kike has been on the IL over the last 4-5 years. He's not a hulk and bulk Yankee. He's a true athlete.

5. We don't need a .700 catcher. We need a great defensive one who can handle the staff well. McGuire and Wong both seem capable and will not be a net minus, IMO.

 

I think just assuming Sale is not going to be hit by an Acme Corporation produced anvil ... or get struck by lightning .. is wildly optimisitic given the last 2+ seasons.

[Bellhorn04]

Yes, agreed, and that's why they did not do what was best for the long term. They buckled to fan pressure and maybe taking a hit on gate and cable revenue for a few months to maybe a year.

 

"Buckling to fan pressure" is kind of a distortion, I think. It's not like there was a public outcry about not having a fire sale.

 

"Recognition of fan preferences" would be more accurate, I think.

[Bellhorn04]

I’m not so sure that Bloom didn’t try to get rid of Evol, and JD, but there might not of been much a demand for either one, and as it has turned out that demand would have been right.

 

In Speier's article there was a statement from someone from another team saying that what Bloom was asking for JD indicated he was hoping someone would be stupid.

[notin]

You are right about Judge, but Atlanta doesn’t seem to have any problems getting their young players to sign early.

 

Atlanta usually signs them pre-arb years and hopes they don’t flop so much. Tampa used to do this alot, too, and often do it so early, that the contract was cheap enough to be flop-proof, such as with Matt Moore.

 

Boston started this with Whitlock, but one reason they differ from Atltanta is Boston historically signs more free agents from outside to 5+ year deals, which fits leave less available to spend…

[moonslav59]

I’m not so sure that Bloom didn’t try to get rid of Evol, and JD, but there might not of been much a demand for either one, and as it has turned out that demand would have been right.

 

I'm pretty sure, he found out what offers were out there for those two, plus Wacha, Strahm and maybe even Kike, but I doubt the latter, as they just extended him.

 

IMO, JD is not getting a QO, so I'd have paid some or most of his contract and gotten the best we could, even if a Hamilton or Binelas type prospect.

 

If they intend to offer Nate a QO, the return would need to be greater, but getting us under the tax line has some very high benefits, in coming years.

 

Same with Wacha and the QO, but trading him would have been a clear white flag. My guess is, he'd have gotten the best return, but alone would not help us reset.

 

Strahm would not have brought back much, but maybe more than JD with no money attached.

 

The question to me is "what was considered "the right return?"

[moonslav59]

I think just assuming Sale is not going to be hit by an Acme Corporation produced anvil ... or get struck by lightning .. is wildly optimisitic given the last 2+ seasons.

 

The finger was a fluke, but I think it's probably safe to count on Sale + Paxton for 30+ starts, combined.

[notin]

A big difference in Ray’s way is the fan base. Did you see all those empty seats masquerading as fans yesterday? What you can get away with in Tampa might not go over so well in Boston. Especially with the amount of money the diehards shell out to go watch a game at Fenway.

 

The Sox have a payroll I exces of $200mill. Right off the bat, that’sa big, big difference from the Ray’s Way. In fact, the entire purpose of the Ray’s Way is to never have a payroll like that…

[moonslav59]

"Buckling to fan pressure" is kind of a distortion, I think. It's not like there was a public outcry about not having a fire sale.

 

"Recognition of fan preferences" would be more accurate, I think.

 

I meant knowing what the fan reaction would have been.

[moonslav59]

The Sox have a payroll I exces of $200mill. Right off the bat, that’sa big, big difference from the Ray’s Way. In fact, the entire purpose of the Ray’s Way is to never have a payroll like that…

 

The Ray's Way, while usually about money, is also geared towards building on long term success.

 

While trading stars in their prime, at the deadline or once they start getting high arb pay, looks like it sucks for the present team, but if you continuously do it, you start seeing the rewards of the ones you traded 2-4 years ago, today, and the cycle continues, pretty much uninterrupted.

 

The problem is, our fan base would get irate, if we traded Bogey, Wacha and Nate. The Rays fanbase (I know- oxymoron) is used to it, but also realizes the benefit of continuing the cycle.

[Old Red]

The Sox have a payroll I exces of $200mill. Right off the bat, that’sa big, big difference from the Ray’s Way. In fact, the entire purpose of the Ray’s Way is to never have a payroll like that…

 

The payroll difference is well known, and has been for years, but the Boston fan base would not put up with what Tampa’s scant fan base would.

[Bellhorn04]

I meant knowing what the fan reaction would have been.

 

I'm with the fans on this one 100%, especially the ones who go to the games. They pay a lot of money. They are stakeholders.

[harmony]

A big difference in Ray’s way is the fan base. Did you see all those empty seats masquerading as fans yesterday? What you can get away with in Tampa might not go over so well in Boston. Especially with the amount of money the diehards shell out to go watch a game at Fenway.

Therefore are the undue expectations and pressure of Red Sox fans at least partially to blame for that competitive disadvantage?

[moonslav59]

I'm with the fans on this one 100%, especially the ones who go to the games. They pay a lot of money. They are stakeholders.

 

And, that's why they chose that plan- or one reason, anyway.

 

I'm one fan that wishes we'd go that way. It may suck to see stars go, but the Rays keep having new and exciting stars, seemingly every year.

 

I want a sustainable system in place, and I know that does not have to depend on dumping players about to make too much money in time to get nice returns that may not show anything for years, or may be busts, I might add.

 

The other thing the Rays seem to be experts at is dumping players right after their best career year and or right before they start declining steeply. Maybe because they've dumped so many good players, it just seems that way, but the list is long and goes way back. (Snell is but one example.)

 

[moonslav59]

Therefore are the undue expectations and pressure of Red Sox fans at least partially to blame for that competitive disadvantage?

 

I basically said this, after the deadline, but put it in words that offended some.

 

I said something like, the Sox did not do what was in their best interests because of "crybaby fans."

[notin]

The payroll difference is well known, and has been for years, but the Boston fan base would not put up with what Tampa’s scant fan base would.

 

I’m calling ********.

 

The Sox fan base put up with an 86 year drought and a ever-present cry of “wait till next year.”

 

They’ve seen 3 last place finishes on 4 years.

 

They’ve seen early postseason exits and late season collapses.

 

Yet they always come back.

 

I don’t think you give the fan base enough credit…

[moonslav59]

I’m calling ********.

 

The Sox fan base put up with an 86 year drought and a ever-present cry of “wait till next year.”

 

They’ve seen 3 last place finishes on 4 years.

 

They’ve seen early postseason exits and late season collapses.

 

Yet they always come back.

 

I don’t think you give the fan base enough credit…

 

Your points are true.

 

They do comeback, when the team wins or gives the perception they can or will compete, but when the suck, revenue is down.

 

It is a factor for most teams, less so for TBR.

[Bellhorn04]

Therefore are the undue expectations and pressure of Red Sox fans at least partially to blame for that competitive disadvantage?

 

Who says the Red Sox are at a competitive disadvantage to the Rays?

 

Yes, they've been beating our brains in this year and have fielded competitive teams on a much more consistent basis in recent years.

 

But "from 30,000 feet" as the saying goes now, we do have those 4 rings over the last 20 years to their zero.

[Bellhorn04]

I basically said this, after the deadline, but put it in words that offended some.

 

I said something like, the Sox did not do what was in their best interests because of "crybaby fans."

 

Those crybaby fans don't bother me at all. I tend to think crybaby fans have been a big help to the franchise.

 

Without crybaby fans, maybe we wouldn't have signed Manny, or some of the other big name free agents that have helped us garner the 4 rings...

[moonslav59]

Those crybaby fans don't bother me at all. I tend to think crybaby fans have been a big help to the franchise.

 

Without crybaby fans, maybe we wouldn't have signed Manny, or some of the other big name free agents that have helped us garner the 4 rings...

 

Yes, and I never said there was no upside to them.

 

Nobody cared when we traded Slocumb, especially a few years later, but I do remember some griping when we traded David Wells, and we saw some when we traded Vaz, who IMO, was not coming back on an extension.

 

.

[sk7326]

The Ray's Way, while usually about money, is also geared towards building on long term success.

 

While trading stars in their prime, at the deadline or once they start getting high arb pay, looks like it sucks for the present team, but if you continuously do it, you start seeing the rewards of the ones you traded 2-4 years ago, today, and the cycle continues, pretty much uninterrupted.

 

The problem is, our fan base would get irate, if we traded Bogey, Wacha and Nate. The Rays fanbase (I know- oxymoron) is used to it, but also realizes the benefit of continuing the cycle.

 

From Rays ownership - it's the money. The success is a happy coincidence.

[Bobe2]

The finger was a fluke, but I think it's probably safe to count on Sale + Paxton for 30+ starts, combined.

 

Paxton is on a 1 year deal no guarantee that he will resign, and this is Sales first opt-out year, Sale has a lot of deferred money on his contract 40 or 50 million to be paid around 2035 and I don’t know if he would lose that deferred money if he doesn’t complete his contract or not

[Old Red]

I’m calling ********.

 

The Sox fan base put up with an 86 year drought and a ever-present cry of “wait till next year.”

 

They’ve seen 3 last place finishes on 4 years.

 

They’ve seen early postseason exits and late season collapses.

 

Yet they always come back.

 

I don’t think you give the fan base enough credit…

You can BS all you want, but how has the Nation put up with this year?

[harmony]

Who says the Red Sox are at a competitive disadvantage to the Rays?

 

Yes, they've been beating our brains in this year and have fielded competitive teams on a much more consistent basis in recent years.

 

But "from 30,000 feet" as the saying goes now, we do have those 4 rings over the last 20 years to their zero.

Red Sox fans will always cherish fond memories of the World Series titles but since the start of the 2020 season the Tampa Bay Rays have the second-best cumulative regular-season record (behind the Dodgers) while the Red Sox in that period are in the bottom half among the 30 MLB teams.

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2022&month=0&season1=2020&ind=0&team=0,ts&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=2020-01-01&enddate=2022-12-31&sort=2,d

[moonslav59]

From Rays ownership - it's the money. The success is a happy coincidence.

 

Not totally. Too many cheap teams don't trade away stars at the right time. They also don't get the returns the Rays seem to get or know precisely when the time is right.

[Old Red]

Those crybaby fans don't bother me at all. I tend to think crybaby fans have been a big help to the franchise.

 

Without crybaby fans, maybe we wouldn't have signed Manny, or some of the other big name free agents that have helped us garner the 4 rings...

Some of those crybaby fans shell out big bucks to go to Fenway, and to me they have more of a right to do so then those who don’t. I myself don’t mind being called a crybaby fan.

[moonslav59]

Paxton is on a 1 year deal no guarantee that he will resign, and this is Sales first opt-out year, Sale has a lot of deferred money on his contract 40 or 50 million to be paid around 2035 and I don’t know if he would lose that deferred money if he doesn’t complete his contract or not

 

The Sox have the option on Paxton, not the other way around.

 

I don't think they signed him for 2022, in the first place. The deal was for 2023 & 2024. I'm 99% sure the Sox take the $13M x2 option, and Paxton is with the Sox going forward.

[notin]

You can BS all you want, but how has the Nation put up with this year?

 

The diehards are still watching and going. The fair weather types are behaving as always…

[notin]

Those crybaby fans don't bother me at all. I tend to think crybaby fans have been a big help to the franchise.

 

Without crybaby fans, maybe we wouldn't have signed Manny, or some of the other big name free agents that have helped us garner the 4 rings...

 

I’m willing to bet they have zero influence.

 

I might be wrong, but I think most people capable of getting a job as MLB GM think they know more about building an MLB team than any fan.

 

And in most cases, they’re probably right…