Fire Bloom .

[notin]

I think they feel they have had a chance to go the World Series for a few years in a row, now- unlike us. They actually went in 2020.

 

When they trade away good players, especially mid-season, I think they do so, thinking they are getting someone who will be helpful in a few years, and as they do that, they are calling up someone they traded for a few years ago. It's a replenishing cycle that works, and it could work for big spending teams, too, but only for players they don't intend to extend- something the Rays never do, unless they lock a kid up way before arb years.

 

The Rays are trying hard to win a ring, within the budgetary confinces their owner places on the GM. They have found a way to be pretty highly competitive for many years in a row.

 

They got their initial start at measured success, by getting several high draft picks in the mid 2000's, but since then they have worked the system in their favor. They used to hoard comp picks, but when that went away, they changed, yet again. They rely on great scouting of ML talent and knowing when someone is about to have a career year, or knowing a tweak that will improve someone that may have been like a journeyman their whole career.

 

They have had 3 losing seasons since 2007 (one was 80-82), and have never finished last since then.

 

Since 2009, they have had no winning seasons' winning percent below .556.

 

Since 2017, they finished 3, 3, 2, 1, 1 and are currently in 2nd in a very tough division.

 

To do this on a restricted budget is simply amazing, and it's no mistake 3 people from their system are now GMs on other teams (LAD, HOU & BOS).

 

 

One small error - the Rays did finish last in 2016.

 

However, all this talk of the Ray’s Way and how it will never play in Boston.

 

Since the Rays turned everything around in 2007, they’ve been to the postseason 7 times, won 4 ALE titles, and been to 2 World Series.

 

In that same timeframe, the Red Sox have been to the postseason 7 times, won 4 ALE titles, and been to 2 World Series.

 

Now the Sox did win both titles, while the Rays list both. But the Sox also have 4 last place finishes to the Rays 1.

 

And these numbers don’t include this year, where there Rays will go to another postseason, might win a fifth ALE pennant if they can make up 4 games, and are still in on the series.

 

Is the Rays Way so bad? Not sure I see a difference in results here…

[Bellhorn04]

One small error - the Rays did finish last in 2016.

 

However, all this talk of the Ray’s Way and how it will never play in Boston.

 

Since the Rays turned everything around in 2007, they’ve been to the postseason 7 times, won 4 ALE titles, and been to 2 World Series.

 

In that same timeframe, the Red Sox have been to the postseason 7 times, won 4 ALE titles, and been to 2 World Series.

 

Now the Sox did win both titles, while the Rays list both. But the Sox also have 4 last place finishes to the Rays 1.

 

And these numbers don’t include this year, where there Rays will go to another postseason, might win a fifth ALE pennant if they can make up 4 games, and are still in on the series.

 

Is the Rays Way so bad? Not sure I see a difference in results here…

 

You're right, the Rays have been doing extremely well.

 

One thing that fascinates me is where they get all their pitchers from. The names keep changing but the results stay the same. It's like they have a secret factory where they build them.

[moonslav59]

You're right, the Rays have been doing extremely well.

 

One thing that fascinates me is where they get all their pitchers from. The names keep changing but the results stay the same. It's like they have a secret factory where they build them.

 

They get some by trading stars before they reach 2nd or 3rd year arbs.

 

Back when Certificates of Deposit were a big thing, I remember buying $5,000 in a CD every month and put them on auto roll-over. That way, every month, if I needed it, I'd have one maturing with interest. This is how the Rays do it, in part. They buy a CD (trade a star) and wait for it to mature, but when you do it every month (year in baseball), you end up having one maturing everytime you buy (trade) one.

 

Of course, they are near the top in pitcher development and scouting other team's fringe or journeymen players that are nearing their career years or are a teak away from having a 2-3 year stretch of plus ball-playing.

 

None of this goes against a big spending team's goals and priorities, but it takes discipline and an understanding fanbase that won't boycott the team after trading a star. You have to begin that cycle somewhere, and the getting started part is the hardest. This past deadline was the perfect chance to start that ball rolling, and Bloom either chickened out or was told not to trade any stars or semi-stars, but Vaz.

[Bellhorn04]

None of this goes against a big spending team's goals and priorities, but it takes discipline and an understanding fanbase that won't boycott the team after trading a star. You have to begin that cycle somewhere, and the getting started part is the hardest. This past deadline was the perfect chance to start that ball rolling, and Bloom either chickened out or was told not to trade any stars or semi-stars, but Vaz.

 

So you're basically saying Bloom lied about his deadline strategy.

[Bellhorn04]

You're right, the Rays have been doing extremely well.

 

One thing that fascinates me is where they get all their pitchers from. The names keep changing but the results stay the same. It's like they have a secret factory where they build them.

 

Case in point - Jason Adam.

 

Journeyman, signed as free agent for $900 K.

 

Having unbelievable season.

 

Has to be scouting and coaching.

[Hugh2]

You pink hats have it all figured out!

Moncada is a beer leaguer and Kopeck has yet to figure it out at age 27

They were traded for an Elite starting pitcher who won you a ring in 18

 

They might have been Top prospects on Mickey Mouse’s list but not any legit Scouting sites at the time

Moncada’s stock was Agent driven the Sox were fools to sign him but hey, they also signed Castillo

You don’t sign high priced International players, more times than not they suck

 

Do your research on Mayer, better yet talk to the Scouts if you leave your basement

 

You're delusional dude and your opinion is 100% hindsight and based on erroneous and absurd claims. Which I suppose one has to do when they have ZERO argument. Please present evidence that Moncadas stock was driven by his agent???? Kopech was also ranked highly as well.

 

At the time of the trade Moncada was ranked top 5 by all of MLB.com/BA/BP Kopech was 16/32/36 respectively.

 

Are you seriously making the argument that teams don't trade minor league prospects for good MLB players? like what literally happens all the time just doesn't magically happen in your book. So guys never get traded. I get having a difference of opinion, or not wanting something to happen and there's nothing wrong with that but what we have here is you just denying reality.

 

Maybe I misread your original statement but you left me with the impression that top prospects do not get traded for star MLB talent. That's just flat-out wrong.

 

Pedro Martinez traded for Top Prospect Carl Pavano. Hanley Ramirez and Anibal Sanchez were traded for Josh Beckett. Red Sox traded Casey Kelly for Adrian Gonzelz. And these are just Red Sox examples off the top of my head.

[Bellhorn04]

STORK refuses to let boring old facts get in the way.

[Hugh2]

STORK refuses to let boring old facts get in the way.

 

I've seen some pretty insane takes here but saying that prospects don't get traded for MLB players is just pretty crazy. And then to say they were not legit prospects on any scouting sites at the time (When they were legitimately on every site) is just...well absurd.

[jacksonianmarch]

Moncada has a 4WAR season in 21 and a 5.5WAR season in 19. The guy has immense talent. He just has been dealing with the injury bug which seems to have robbed him of his elite speed. You cannot predict that

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Case in point - Jason Adam.

 

Journeyman, signed as free agent for $900 K.

 

Having unbelievable season.

 

Has to be scouting and coaching.

 

These guys should be first on Bloom's list of offseason acquisitions. Didn't he have a three-year waiting period for recruiting other Rays' employees when Tampa agreed to let the Sox hire him?

 

Time's up, get the people in place first for the rebuild... And Henry should be able to buy them all, since no exec salaries factor into the tax threshold!

[mvp 78]

Bashing the GM is an easy gig.

 

A lot of these other opinions that have been offered by Stork are just laughable though.

[jacksonianmarch]

Well, so bashing the GM might be warranted here.

 

I just took a look back on the Renfroe trade. Sox ate money to take on Bradley with the hope that Hamilton and Binelas would amount to something. Renfroe posted almost identical AVG/OBP/SLG but with league offense down, he's surpassed his 2021 WAR in 43 less games. Sox could definitely have used his stick in the middle of the lineup. But the talk was about Binelas and Hamilton. Well, both have flopped. Binelas hit A+ pitching well with an OPS of .850, but his introduction to AA has been anything but good with an OPS of .588 and a .147AVG. He will likely start there again, but his K rate is unsustainable. Not entirely unfixable, but the shine has come off this prospect. Hamilton, meanwhile, turns 25 this month and has a sub .700OPS. Bright side is the kid can steal bags (63), but if he doesn't reach base enough, you cannot steal 1b. Both players obtained from the Brewers have fallen off in value and this really hurts Bloom. The Betts trade accomplished some of it's intended goal. The Renfroe trade solely falls on the progression of these two kids and the early returns are a stark negative

[Hugh2]

Well, so bashing the GM might be warranted here.

 

I just took a look back on the Renfroe trade. Sox ate money to take on Bradley with the hope that Hamilton and Binelas would amount to something. Renfroe posted almost identical AVG/OBP/SLG but with league offense down, he's surpassed his 2021 WAR in 43 less games. Sox could definitely have used his stick in the middle of the lineup. But the talk was about Binelas and Hamilton. Well, both have flopped. Binelas hit A+ pitching well with an OPS of .850, but his introduction to AA has been anything but good with an OPS of .588 and a .147AVG. He will likely start there again, but his K rate is unsustainable. Not entirely unfixable, but the shine has come off this prospect. Hamilton, meanwhile, turns 25 this month and has a sub .700OPS. Bright side is the kid can steal bags (63), but if he doesn't reach base enough, you cannot steal 1b. Both players obtained from the Brewers have fallen off in value and this really hurts Bloom. The Betts trade accomplished some of it's intended goal. The Renfroe trade solely falls on the progression of these two kids and the early returns are a stark negative

 

Sox are 3rd in the AL in runs scored.....they should have asked for pitching in return

[moonslav59]

So you're basically saying Bloom lied about his deadline strategy.

 

Maybe. Maybe a lot was discussed, and they came to a consensus, and that is what he spoke of- not his or others' personal positions or beliefs.

 

Who knows.

 

He's part of management: they say what needs to be said.

[jacksonianmarch]

Sox are 3rd in the AL in runs scored.....they should have asked for pitching in return

 

That's not how the prospect game works. If these kids took off, they could be dealt for pitching. You go for value over position and then trade if you have a surplus

[moonslav59]

You're delusional dude and your opinion is 100% hindsight and based on erroneous and absurd claims. Which I suppose one has to do when they have ZERO argument. Please present evidence that Moncadas stock was driven by his agent???? Kopech was also ranked highly as well.

 

At the time of the trade Moncada was ranked top 5 by all of MLB.com/BA/BP Kopech was 16/32/36 respectively.

 

Are you seriously making the argument that teams don't trade minor league prospects for good MLB players? like what literally happens all the time just doesn't magically happen in your book. So guys never get traded. I get having a difference of opinion, or not wanting something to happen and there's nothing wrong with that but what we have here is you just denying reality.

 

Maybe I misread your original statement but you left me with the impression that top prospects do not get traded for star MLB talent. That's just flat-out wrong.

 

Pedro Martinez traded for Top Prospect Carl Pavano. Hanley Ramirez and Anibal Sanchez were traded for Josh Beckett. Red Sox traded Casey Kelly for Adrian Gonzelz. And these are just Red Sox examples off the top of my head.

 

This is the same guy who said we are delusional for suggesting a Casas trade for an ace.

[moonslav59]

Well, so bashing the GM might be warranted here.

 

I just took a look back on the Renfroe trade. Sox ate money to take on Bradley with the hope that Hamilton and Binelas would amount to something. Renfroe posted almost identical AVG/OBP/SLG but with league offense down, he's surpassed his 2021 WAR in 43 less games. Sox could definitely have used his stick in the middle of the lineup. But the talk was about Binelas and Hamilton. Well, both have flopped. Binelas hit A+ pitching well with an OPS of .850, but his introduction to AA has been anything but good with an OPS of .588 and a .147AVG. He will likely start there again, but his K rate is unsustainable. Not entirely unfixable, but the shine has come off this prospect. Hamilton, meanwhile, turns 25 this month and has a sub .700OPS. Bright side is the kid can steal bags (63), but if he doesn't reach base enough, you cannot steal 1b. Both players obtained from the Brewers have fallen off in value and this really hurts Bloom. The Betts trade accomplished some of it's intended goal. The Renfroe trade solely falls on the progression of these two kids and the early returns are a stark negative

 

You just figured this out?

 

Geeesh. Every single poster her has said the deal sucked. It took you the longest!

 

LOL

[mvp 78]

Well, so bashing the GM might be warranted here.

 

I just took a look back on the Renfroe trade. Sox ate money to take on Bradley with the hope that Hamilton and Binelas would amount to something. Renfroe posted almost identical AVG/OBP/SLG but with league offense down, he's surpassed his 2021 WAR in 43 less games. Sox could definitely have used his stick in the middle of the lineup. But the talk was about Binelas and Hamilton. Well, both have flopped. Binelas hit A+ pitching well with an OPS of .850, but his introduction to AA has been anything but good with an OPS of .588 and a .147AVG. He will likely start there again, but his K rate is unsustainable. Not entirely unfixable, but the shine has come off this prospect. Hamilton, meanwhile, turns 25 this month and has a sub .700OPS. Bright side is the kid can steal bags (63), but if he doesn't reach base enough, you cannot steal 1b. Both players obtained from the Brewers have fallen off in value and this really hurts Bloom. The Betts trade accomplished some of it's intended goal. The Renfroe trade solely falls on the progression of these two kids and the early returns are a stark negative

 

Binelas has played a little bit better as of late, but yeah that trade really sucked. I think I've stated elsewhere that it has been Bloom's most illogical move.

[moonslav59]

Sox are 3rd in the AL in runs scored.....they should have asked for pitching in return

 

Well, I think the idea was that defense helps every pitcher. The trade was not about offense.

[Hugh2]

This is the same guy who said we are delusional for suggesting a Casas trade for an ace.

 

I mean I would prefer to trade others for an ACE and keep the guy who you figure to MLB ready, and fill a hole in the diamond next year but yeah by no means is that delusional.

[Bellhorn04]

Maybe. Maybe a lot was discussed, and they came to a consensus, and that is what he spoke of- not his or others' personal positions or beliefs.

 

Who knows.

 

He's part of management: they say what needs to be said.

 

I thought what he said made sense.

 

The Red Sox were 3 games out of a playoff spot on August 1. They thought they had a healthy Sale coming back, and that they would have Paxton coming in September.

[mvp 78]

I thought what he said made sense.

 

The Red Sox were 3 games out of a playoff spot on August 1. They thought they had a healthy Sale coming back, and that they would have Paxton coming in September.

 

Management didn't want to punt on the season. They wanted to stay as competitive as possible, because they weren't really bad enough to get Mayer part 2. They also felt the returns at the deadline weren't significant enough to part ways with Eovaldi or JD. If Wacha had been healthy at the time, maybe he would have fetched something better.

[Hugh2]

I thought what he said made sense.

 

The Red Sox were 3 games out of a playoff spot on August 1. They thought they had a healthy Sale coming back, and that they would have Paxton coming in September.

 

 

Surprisingly was a similar spot they were in last year and everyone criticized Blooms moves and then the Sox went on a run. One could ponder if a similar situation would have happened with a cleaner bill of health.

[Bellhorn04]

Management didn't want to punt on the season. They wanted to stay as competitive as possible, because they weren't really bad enough to get Mayer part 2. They also felt the returns at the deadline weren't significant enough to part ways with Eovaldi or JD. If Wacha had been healthy at the time, maybe he would have fetched something better.

 

Surprisingly was a similar spot they were in last year and everyone criticized Blooms moves and then the Sox went on a run. One could ponder if a similar situation would have happened with a cleaner bill of health.

 

We are all in agreement then.

[notin]

Well, so bashing the GM might be warranted here.

 

I just took a look back on the Renfroe trade. Sox ate money to take on Bradley with the hope that Hamilton and hi Binelas would amount to something. Renfroe posted almost identical AVG/OBP/SLG but with league offense down, he's surpassed his 2021 WAR in 43 less games. Sox could definitely have used his stick in the middle of the lineup. But the talk was about Binelas and Hamilton. Well, both have flopped. Binelas hit A+ pitching well with an OPS of .850, but his introduction to AA has been anything but good with an OPS of .588 and a .147AVG. He will likely start there again, but his K rate is unsustainable. Not entirely unfixable, but the shine has come off this prospect. Hamilton, meanwhile, turns 25 this month and has a sub .700OPS. Bright side is the kid can steal bags (63), but if he doesn't reach base enough, you cannot steal 1b. Both players obtained from the Brewers have fallen off in value and this really hurts Bloom. The Betts trade accomplished some of it's intended goal. The Renfroe trade solely falls on the progression of these two kids and the early returns are a stark negative

 

 

The trade has been unpopular since the day it was announced, but it wasn’t as bad IMO.

 

The Sox acquired Bradley to improve OF defense, and I. That respect it worked. When Kike went down, the Sox were 29-27 and amidst a ferric hot streak, this despite a 10-19 start in which the Sox simply didn’t hit.

 

Since Bradley got realeased and the Sox had to cobble together anyone to play CF and RF, we saw how horrific OF defense can contribute to bringing team down.

 

Bradley’s offense - even from the ninth spot - was obviously a huge factor in his release, but I still don’t dislike this trade and actually dislike the release of Bradley much more…

[moonslav59]

I mean I would prefer to trade others for an ACE and keep the guy who you figure to MLB ready, and fill a hole in the diamond next year but yeah by no means is that delusional.

 

I really like Casas. Rafaela, too. I just think we don't get the type of starter we need by trading even the next 4-5 prospects, not counting Romero.

 

The other option is trading Bello. Is that any better, when our biggest need is controllable and inexpensive arms?

[moonslav59]

The trade has been unpopular since the day it was announced, but it wasn’t as bad IMO.

 

The Sox acquired Bradley to improve OF defense, and I. That respect it worked. When Kike went down, the Sox were 29-27 and amidst a ferric hot streak, this despite a 10-19 start in which the Sox simply didn’t hit.

 

Since Bradley got realeased and the Sox had to cobble together anyone to play CF and RF, we saw how horrific OF defense can contribute to bringing team down.

 

Bradley’s offense - even from the ninth spot - was obviously a huge factor in his release, but I still don’t dislike this trade and actually dislike the release of Bradley much more…

 

Renfroe was not the butcher Cordero and Arroyo have been.

 

While the defense did improve by the trade, and the Story addition to the offense did not take hold due to his injury and slow start, the trade was a disaster. Binelas and Hamilton may still salvage something from it, but the trade hurt the offense and the budget. Those two far outweigh the defensive upgrade.

[Hugh2]

I really like Casas. Rafaela, too. I just think we don't get the type of starter we need by trading even the next 4-5 prospects, not counting Romero.

 

The other option is trading Bello. Is that any better, when our biggest need is controllable and inexpensive arms?

 

If you only have one trade chip that you can realistically trade for a pitcher, your system is probably not strong enough to start depleting. The easy answer here is Mayer should be on the table, in that no one is ever untradeable for the right price.

 

Yorke, Bleis, and Mata aren't slouches either.

[redsoxrules]

The trade has been unpopular since the day it was announced, but it wasn’t as bad IMO.

 

The Sox acquired Bradley to improve OF defense, and I. That respect it worked. When Kike went down, the Sox were 29-27 and amidst a ferric hot streak, this despite a 10-19 start in which the Sox simply didn’t hit.

 

Since Bradley got realeased and the Sox had to cobble together anyone to play CF and RF, we saw how horrific OF defense can contribute to bringing team down.

 

Bradley’s offense - even from the ninth spot - was obviously a huge factor in his release, but I still don’t dislike this trade and actually dislike the release of Bradley much more…

 

Bradley has been a negative player since he joined the Brewers. Why would you want that on your team? His defense while still good isn't what it used to be. This ain't 2018 where you had a juggernaut offense where you can afford to have him the lineup. And not only that he can't even provide the offense that he did in 2018 so its even worse now. And to top that off the salary he's getting for this. I'd be surprised if he plays on a MLB team next year.

[moonslav59]

If you only have one trade chip that you can realistically trade for a pitcher, your system is probably not strong enough to start depleting. The easy answer here is Mayer should be on the table, in that no one is ever untradeable for the right price.

 

Yorke, Bleis, and Mata aren't slouches either.

 

I am all for continuous building of the farm, but every now and then, one trade is needed. I'm not sure if Sox brass sees 2023 as "that year," but I think fans are getting antsy.

 

I'd prefer trading Casas to Mayer, since the upside is so much higher on the latter, but I'm not against it, if we get back a better pitcher than Casas would have gotten us.

Edited September 8, 2022 by moonslav59