Fire Bloom .

[notin]

The Sox did offer Mookie $300M that is true, but I think they had a pretty good idea that he wanted more, and wouldn’t accept it.

 

That’s conjecture. Might be right. But I’d doubt it myself. I think the offer was genuine but Mookie’s counter, which was over $400mill, was prohibitive…

[Old Red]

That’s conjecture. Might be right. But I’d doubt it myself. I think the offer was genuine but Mookie’s counter, which was over $400mill, was prohibitive…

 

Agree.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

I still don't understand grieving over a guy(Betts) who didn't want to play here.

[Old Red]

I still don't understand grieving over a guy(Betts) who didn't want to play here.

 

I always thought that too, but after I heard Mookie do a podcast recently with Rob Bradford, I’m not so sure.

[dgalehouse]

Can’t handle it? Does it violate the Dombrowski Appreciation Society to acknowledge it?

 

Some of us (ok probably just me) started talking about this type of thing on the heels of the Kimbrel trade and Price signing. You can’t launch the payroll into the stratosphere while emptying the farm. Of course all you got out of it was that Logan Allen didn’t pan out.

 

If Dombrowski had nothing to do with this team, explain why soortrac has the payroll at $207mill with $103 coming from 5 contracts written Dombrowski that have produced 6.1 fWAR. A number that looks worse when you realize 4.2 fWAR come from one player…

 

Notin , I honestly don't feel like responding to this , but I'll do it anyway. You made a post complaining that I am going after you and a couple of others rather than just Bloom. So I make a post strictly about Bloom and Dombrowski and you come back with a sarcastic " Can't handle it ? " Can't handle what ? Really , it's not worth my time doing this , but I will try to deal with your examples . In my opinion , the Kimbrel trade was one of our best deals in recent years and had a big part in the team's success for the next three years. In no way did it clean out the farm . Anyway , Kimbrel was gone after 2018 , so it had nothing at all to do with signing or trading Mookie. As for Price , it was not a good contract . Too much money for too many years. But it wasn't a total loss. Price went 46-24 , with a pretty decent ERA during his time with the Sox . Bloom decided to trade him , along with a true superstar , while agreeing to pay half his salary . So , live with it. As for Sale , what can I say ? Everybody loved Chris " Freakin' " Sale . And then he got hurt . It happens. The Mets are paying DeGrom 28 mil this season. He has been out all year. They are not crying about it. They are doing fantastic. This is Bloom's third year in charge. The team is plain awful. He has to be accountable. It is well past time for blaming his predecessor.

[moonslav59]

Nothing like a bad losing stretch to bring out the best in people.

 

LOL!

 

[notin]

Notin , I honestly don't feel like responding to this , but I'll do it anyway. You made a post complaining that I am going after you and a couple of others rather than just Bloom. So I make a post strictly about Bloom and Dombrowski and you come back with a sarcastic " Can't handle it ? " Can't handle what ? Really , it's not worth my time doing this , but I will try to deal with your examples . In my opinion , the Kimbrel trade was one of our best deals in recent years and had a big part in the team's success for the next three years. In no way did it clean out the farm . Anyway , Kimbrel was gone after 2018 , so it had nothing at all to do with signing or trading Mookie. As for Price , it was not a good contract . Too much money for too many years. But it wasn't a total loss. Price went 46-24 , with a pretty decent ERA during his time with the Sox . Bloom decided to trade him , along with a true superstar , while agreeing to pay half his salary . So , live with it. As for Sale , what can I say ? Everybody loved Chris " Freakin' " Sale . And then he got hurt . It happens. The Mets are paying DeGrom 28 mil this season. He has been out all year. They are not crying about it. They are doing fantastic. This is Bloom's third year in charge. The team is plain awful. He has to be accountable. It is well past time for blaming his predecessor.

 

 

I'll keep it simple. I cited cash from Dombrowski contracts on this years team. This isn’t redraft fantasy where “Price was traded” and that ends it. You like closers and note Kenley Jansen was available when Atlanta signed him. Hey, one year $16mill. Why did Boston pass? Well, for one thing they’re paying $15mill for Price to not pitch for another team. That contract helped in 2018, but it didn’t end there. But if the Sox weren’t paying Price, do you or don’t you think they’d at least have the cash on the budget for someone like Jansen? Or because it’s been three years, that gets ignored?

 

THat's a big issue. The Sox have about half their payroll tied up in players whose production simply isn't commensurate with their salary, and all of them came on Dobrowski deals. (A point can be made about Story, a deal I was also never wild about. But it's also not been a full year yet.) And THAT is why DD still has an impact. Those big long term deals always see the production drop, but not the money involved and that prevents and limits the team. And it doesn't matter that "it's been three years" if the deals go on for five.

 

That’s why I hate any FA contract longer than 4-5 years. Unfortunately they are a necessity sometimes, and are hopefully limited to younger pre-FA players like Devers. Not to 30-somethings looking to be compensated for what they did in their 20s, like Price.

 

And then look at the farm Bloom inherited. So far he’s managed to promote 4 players to the majors - Houck, Crawford, Duran and Dalbec. Sure, they’re all MLB talent, but not like he inherited pre-arb versions of Betts, Bogaerts, Benintendi and Bradley. Of those 4 Bloom inherited (5 if you want to count Bello), how many will still be in MLB in 4 years? Sure, I expect and hope all of them, but it's not likely.

 

I don’t see them as walking into equal situations. Dombrowski became GM at the Perfect Storm time to be a Sox GM. A ton of young pre-arb talent, a farm with a slew of MLB readies, and a nearly unlimited budget. The incredible draft class of 2011 was throwing MLB player after MLB player into his lap. And it still took him 3 years to win a title.

 

Did Bloom walk into the same situation? And 3 years later, is everything Dombrowski did gone and wiped clean?

[dgalehouse]

Mookie is getting 30 mil a year for 12 years . The Sox could have done that if they wanted to. They chose not to .

[moonslav59]

I'll keep it simple. I cited cash from Dombrowski contracts on this years team. This isn’t redraft fantasy where “Price was traded” and that ends it. You like closers and note Kenley Jansen was available when Atlanta signed him. Hey, one year $16mill. Why did Boston pass? Well, for one thing they’re paying $15mill for Price to not pitch for another team. That contract helped in 2018, but it didn’t end there. But if the Sox weren’t paying Price, do you or don’t you think they’d at least have the cash on the budget for someone like Jansen? Or because it’s been three years, that gets ignored?

 

THat's a big issue. The Sox have about half their payroll tied up in players whose production simply isn't commensurate with their salary, and all of them came on Dobrowski deals. (A point can be made about Story, a deal I was also never wild about. But it's also not been a full year yet.) And THAT is why DD still has an impact. Those big long term deals always see the production drop, but not the money involved and that prevents and limits the team. And it doesn't matter that "it's been three years" if the deals go on for five.

 

That’s why I hate any FA contract longer than 4-5 years. Unfortunately they are a necessity sometimes, and are hopefully limited to younger pre-FA players like Devers. Not to 30-somethings looking to be compensated for what they did in their 20s, like Price.

 

And then look at the farm Bloom inherited. So far he’s managed to promote 4 players to the majors - Houck, Crawford, Duran and Dalbec. Sure, they’re all MLB talent, but not like he inherited pre-arb versions of Betts, Bogaerts, Benintendi and Bradley. Of those 4 Bloom inherited (5 if you want to count Bello), how many will still be in MLB in 4 years? Sure, I expect and hope all of them, but it's not likely.

 

I don’t see them as walking into equal situations. Dombrowski became GM at the Perfect Storm time to be a Sox GM. A ton of young pre-arb talent, a farm with a slew of MLB readies, and a nearly unlimited budget. The incredible draft class of 2011 was throwing MLB player after MLB player into his lap. And it still took him 3 years to win a title.

 

Did Bloom walk into the same situation? And 3 years later, is everything Dombrowski did gone and wiped clean?

 

Well said.

 

It's simple to deny context of choose to say, it's time to ut all that behind us, but some situations have long term affects.

 

One good thing: we are about to get out from under the Price contract, once and for all. We shed the Pedey and Rusnet contracts not too long ago, as well.

 

While guys like Nate, JD and Vaz were significant players on the 2018 amazing team, their 2018 numbers are not all that great, and should be able to be improved upon at equal cost. Finding a catcher for $7M will not be easy. The Bloom guys needing to be replaced are a mixed bag. Replacing Kike's 2022 season should be easy at $7M. Replacing Wacha, Hill and Strahm at $15M combined might not be. We were able to dump Diekman but still have to pay Barnes and the $8M JBJ buyout (not counted on '24 tax line.)

 

The big question is about how much Henry will let Bloom spend, and maybe the bigger question is how will he spend it? Will he spread it out over 6-9 guys or go larger and maybe longer on 3-4, instead?

 

This winter will be a doozie. (I call it the "flashpoint" for Bloom.)

 

 

[moonslav59]

Mookie is getting 30 mil a year for 12 years . The Sox could have done that if they wanted to. They chose not to .

 

Bloom had to cut salary for 2020. You think he made the choice?

 

Don't forget, he had to dump $16M on Price, along with the Betts trade.

 

So, we add $30M for Betts + $16M for Price. Who do we trade to balance that out? Nate, Bogey or Sale?

[notin]

Mookie is getting 30 mil a year for 12 years . The Sox could have done that if they wanted to. They chose not to .

 

Okaaaaay.

 

I asked several questions and this answers none of them, but I’ll bite.

 

So are you saying the quarter billion dollar payrolls in 2018 and 2019 had nothing to do with that?

 

Also the Sox reportedly offered $30mill per for 10 years. They were in the ballpark..

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

The main issue with this conglomeration of abomination is defense. Fans have grown (groan) to accept strikeouts as a big part of modern offense. But good defense can make mediocre pitching tolerable; bad defense makes mediocre pitching lose.

 

Bad D is also more deplorable to even casual fans. Not everyone truly believes he can hit 100 mph pitching, but anyone thinks he can "catch the freaking ball."

 

Confusion in Red Sox Nation is dangerous to those entrusted with the brand name. Recruiting Story and Bradley to improve the defense was a viable plan, because D is the first and easiest route to respectability. But cutting JBJ amidst half a line-up that can't hit just weakens the roster even more. At least Jackie could do one thing well.

 

Jarren Duran isn't yet a three- or four-tool player. It's not his fault the Sox chose to promote him to the big leagues where he could learn to be one. But before it's too late, someone needs to teach him the professional part of being a pro athlete.

[mvp 78]

Duran has played OF for 5 years and is flat out garbage. It won’t get better.

[Elktonnick]

The main issue with this conglomeration of abomination is defense. Fans have grown (groan) to accept strikeouts as a big part of modern offense. But good defense can make mediocre pitching tolerable; bad defense makes mediocre pitching lose.

 

Bad D is also more deplorable to even casual fans. Not everyone truly believes he can hit 100 mph pitching, but anyone thinks he can "catch the freaking ball."

 

Confusion in Red Sox Nation is dangerous to those entrusted with the brand name. Recruiting Story and Bradley to improve the defense was a viable plan, because D is the first and easiest route to respectability. But cutting JBJ amidst half a line-up that can't hit just weakens the roster even more. At least Jackie could do one thing well.

 

Jarren Duran isn't yet a three- or four-tool player. It's not his fault the Sox chose to promote him to the big leagues where he could learn to be one. But before it's too late, someone needs to teach him the professional part of being a pro athlete.

 

Apart from his playing skills or lack thereof, I question his judgment.

[Bellhorn04]

I'll keep it simple. I cited cash from Dombrowski contracts on this years team. This isn’t redraft fantasy where “Price was traded” and that ends it. You like closers and note Kenley Jansen was available when Atlanta signed him. Hey, one year $16mill. Why did Boston pass? Well, for one thing they’re paying $15mill for Price to not pitch for another team. That contract helped in 2018, but it didn’t end there. But if the Sox weren’t paying Price, do you or don’t you think they’d at least have the cash on the budget for someone like Jansen? Or because it’s been three years, that gets ignored?

 

THat's a big issue. The Sox have about half their payroll tied up in players whose production simply isn't commensurate with their salary, and all of them came on Dobrowski deals. (A point can be made about Story, a deal I was also never wild about. But it's also not been a full year yet.) And THAT is why DD still has an impact. Those big long term deals always see the production drop, but not the money involved and that prevents and limits the team. And it doesn't matter that "it's been three years" if the deals go on for five.

 

That’s why I hate any FA contract longer than 4-5 years. Unfortunately they are a necessity sometimes, and are hopefully limited to younger pre-FA players like Devers. Not to 30-somethings looking to be compensated for what they did in their 20s, like Price.

 

And then look at the farm Bloom inherited. So far he’s managed to promote 4 players to the majors - Houck, Crawford, Duran and Dalbec. Sure, they’re all MLB talent, but not like he inherited pre-arb versions of Betts, Bogaerts, Benintendi and Bradley. Of those 4 Bloom inherited (5 if you want to count Bello), how many will still be in MLB in 4 years? Sure, I expect and hope all of them, but it's not likely.

 

I don’t see them as walking into equal situations. Dombrowski became GM at the Perfect Storm time to be a Sox GM. A ton of young pre-arb talent, a farm with a slew of MLB readies, and a nearly unlimited budget. The incredible draft class of 2011 was throwing MLB player after MLB player into his lap. And it still took him 3 years to win a title.

 

Did Bloom walk into the same situation? And 3 years later, is everything Dombrowski did gone and wiped clean?

 

Sometimes everybody is partially right.

 

You're right that Bloom walked into a less than ideal situation.

 

But Bloom has had a fairly lousy 2022 that can't simply be blamed on DD.

Edited August 8, 2022 by Bellhorn04

[Nick]

Duran has played OF for 5 years and is flat out garbage. It won’t get better.

 

He definitely makes it an adventure patrolling center field.

 

I think I can look little 'smoother' than he does on routine fly balls.

[oldtimer]

Well said.

 

It's simple to deny context of choose to say, it's time to ut all that behind us, but some situations have long term affects.

 

One good thing: we are about to get out from under the Price contract, once and for all. We shed the Pedey and Rusnet contracts not too long ago, as well.

 

While guys like Nate, JD and Vaz were significant players on the 2018 amazing team, their 2018 numbers are not all that great, and should be able to be improved upon at equal cost. Finding a catcher for $7M will not be easy. The Bloom guys needing to be replaced are a mixed bag. Replacing Kike's 2022 season should be easy at $7M. Replacing Wacha, Hill and Strahm at $15M combined might not be. We were able to dump Diekman but still have to pay Barnes and the $8M JBJ buyout (not counted on '24 tax line.)

 

The big question is about how much Henry will let Bloom spend, and maybe the bigger question is how will he spend it? Will he spread it out over 6-9 guys or go larger and maybe longer on 3-4, instead?

 

This winter will be a doozie. (I call it the "flashpoint" for Bloom.)

 

 

I think that Bloom's moves have been constrained due to budget considerations. He has had to carry some dead money contracts and also needed to replenish the farm. All these points are valid but I see Bloom's moves as a mixed bag. The Bradley for Renfroe trade the removal of Vaz and particularly the way it was done. The long term contract to an injured Sale (was Bloom in on that?), the signing of Paxton with no return to date and others. Yes he has also had some wins in Pivetta, Hosmer, Whitlock so it has been a mixed bag. The thing I also note is the trajectory of the team's play. Instead of becoming more competitive as the calendar marches on, this team seems to be getting less competitive. Does this fit with Bloom's decryption of how he envisioned the team's growth? We need to give Bloom a little more time to see what he will do with more budgetary freedom, but I think the poster who noted we may have alienated both Bogey and Devers could be correct. That is also a bad thing.

[Nick]

Moon does a great job looking at team's overall 'budget'.

 

As a former CPA, I just can't get excited about anyone talking about adding players to the roster without mentioning overall financial implication.

 

Question is always where will the money come from.....HOW DO YOU ALLOCATE $230M OR WHATEVER THAT NUMBER IS?

 

Let's just look at our cheap cost talent.

 

Houck

Schrieber

Brasier

Sawamura

Dalbec

Arroyo

Verdugo

Duran

Crawford

Winckowski

Bello

 

Over $25M club

Chris Sale ($25.6M)

Over $20M club possible savings of $42M

Story ($23.3M)

Xander (probably gone after 2022, relieves $20M)

JD (gone after this year, relieves $22M)

Over $15M club savings of $33M

Eovaldi (probably gone after this year, relieves $17M)

David Price (last year of pay not to play at $16M)

Over $10M club possible savings of $10M

Devers (will need $10M bump for 2023)

Paxton (may get 2 year option picked up)

Over $5M Club Savings of $19M

Barnes ($9.375 2nd biggest mistake by Bloom)

Kike ($7M)

Wacha ($7M)

Hill ($5M)

 

How will Bloom allocate maybe $90M in available spending?

Edited August 8, 2022 by Nick

[moonslav59]

Sometimes everybody is partially right.

 

You're right that Bloom walked into a less than ideal situation.

 

But Bloom has had a fairly lousy 2022 that can't simply be blamed on DD.

 

Just partially, and the debate is how much "partially?"

[Yaz Fan Since 67]

Whoever called Duran a poor outfielder was obviously on point. I had not seen enough of him at the time to have an opinion. What we saw last night was embarrassing, his late jumps are now very apparent. And he has played the position for 5 years? Oh lordy, this is not looking good.

[notin]

Duran has played OF for 5 years and is flat out garbage. It won’t get better.

 

Watching Duran in CF should actually justify the JBJ trade that much more and make me question the DFA.

 

While Bradley’s offense was non-existent, preventing a routine sac fly from becoming an inside-the-park grand slam certainly has some value…

[notin]

Whoever called Duran a poor outfielder was obviously on point. I had not seen enough of him at the time to have an opinion. What we saw last night was embarrassing' date=' his late jumps are now very apparent. And he has played the position for 5 years? Oh lordy, this is not looking good.[/quote']

 

Back to 2b?

 

Or better yet - off to Oakland as part of a deal for the increasingly expensive and therefore available Ramon Laureano…

[Elktonnick]

Watching Duran in CF should actually justify the JBJ trade that much more and make me question the DFA.

 

While Bradley’s offense was non-existent, preventing a routine sac fly from becoming an inside-the-park grand slam certainly has some value…

Bloom seems all in on Duran, why?

[moonslav59]

 

As a former CPA, I just can't get excited about anyone talking about adding players to the roster without mentioning overall financial implication....

 

 

How will Bloom allocate maybe $90M in available spending?

 

My guess is, Henry and Bloom would prefer to add no mega deals to the budget, except maybe Devers, assuming he wants to play here after Bogey bolts.

 

If Bloom is given a $90M wallet to spend, this winter, and open slots range from 5-9, according to which poster you talk to, the average salary can range from $10M x 9 to $18M x 5. Either way you slice the pie or fill some positions from within the system or via trade from the system, an opportunity to improve, and maybe improve greatly, is certainly upon us.

 

Losing Price's contract plus JBJ, Diekman and a few other near deadwood deals allows us to add that money to the players we really need to replace, in kind or with even better players:

 

SS Bogey

CF Kike

SP Nate

DH JD

C Vaz/Plawecki

 

Improving on JBJ (RF), Dalbec/Cordero (1B) and maybe SP 4 (Wacha/Hill) & the pen (Diekman/Strahm/others) should not be too hard to do. However, improving on 2022 by just a little, could still mean we suck in 2023.

 

We need some major upgrades at some slots and in kind replacements, elsewhere. BTW, I do not see bringing Nate, Vaz & JD back as "in kind" replacements or upgrades.

[moonslav59]

Bloom seems all in on Duran, why?

 

No other options.

 

Wants to find out, once and for all, who this guy is, during a wasted season.

[Bellhorn04]

Just partially, and the debate is how much "partially?"

 

Bloom did have a certain amount of money to spend this year and he invested most of it in Story, Bradley, Wacha, Hill, Diekman.

[notin]

No other options.

 

Wants to find out, once and for all, who this guy is, during a wasted season.

 

I hope he’s seen enough. At this point, move Duran to LF and try Franchy in CF. While he certainly could be worse, it’s actually looking unlikely…

[moonslav59]

Back to 2b?

 

Or better yet - off to Oakland as part of a deal for the increasingly expensive and therefore available Ramon Laureano…

 

I proposed and the deals were accepted (not sure OAK would):

 

Casas, Duran, Downs and Seabold for Laureno & Langeliers

 

Bello, Yorke, Lugo & RHern for Laureno & Langeliers

 

It might take Casas, Duran & Bello to get those two, but BTV refused due to an overpay by BOS (82>56.)

[moonslav59]

Bloom did have a certain amount of money to spend this year and he invested most of it in Story, Bradley, Wacha, Hill, Diekman.

 

Indeed- Paxton, too.

[Bellhorn04]

Indeed- Paxton, too.

 

Right. Hopefully that one pays off yet.