Fire Bloom .

[notin]

I remind you the Sox were winning. I remember a time when the Orioles packed Camden Yards. After years of Angelos neglecting to acquire quality players and Orioles attendance collapsed. If you think the same thing can not happen in Boston you are kidding yourself.

 

I remember days when the Sox regularly drew less then 10000. It could happen again.

 

No one thinks it can’t happen in Boston. The team is 120 years old and had a stretch without a title nearly nine decades long. Bad seasons, losing seasons, and title droughts are not new.

 

Yet, like the Orioles, the team will still be there the next day…

[Elktonnick]

You just did, and of course you won't respond to a point that exposes your condescension.

 

(Nice try on changing the wording from "fail to recognize" to "in case you haven't noticed..." Call it nitpicking, but there is a huge difference in statements.)

 

 

 

Why you insist on making an issue of something so trivial is beyond me.

[Elktonnick]

No one thinks it can’t happen in Boston. The team is 120 years old and had a stretch without a title nearly nine decades long. Bad seasons, losing seasons, and title droughts are not new.

 

Yet, like the Orioles, the team will still be there the next day…

 

But perhaps not in Baltimore.

[moonslav59]

Why you insist on making an issue of something so trivial is beyond me.

 

It wasn't an honest mistake. You do it all the time.

 

You call out others for making similar comments, but take issue when someone calls you out.

 

It's only trivial when you do it, I guess.

[Elktonnick]

It wasn't an honest mistake. You do it all the time.

 

You call out others for making similar comments, but take issue when someone calls you out.

 

It's only trivial when you do it, I guess.

 

I know you like to pick fights. If what I post irks you then just ignore me.

[moonslav59]

I know you like to pick fights. If what I post irks you then just ignore me.

 

That's funny.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Max, the Sox were 40-39 when Vaz started, so obviously he was a huge plus, this year. The team had a losing record when he did not start. He's clearly a winner.

 

His clubhouse and team leadership clearly showed up every game, as his teammates came to play focused, determined and energetic, this year.

 

We were 71-51 in his 2021 starts. (21-19 others)

19-26 in 2020 (5-10 others)

62-60 in 2019 (22-18 others)

46-21 in 2018 (64-33 others)

51-36 in 2017 (42-33 others)

27-22 in 2016 (66-47 others)

 

If anything, it appears we won at a better rate with Vaz than with others, most years.

 

I won't bring up CERA disparities, right now.

 

So besides catching he was supposed to do Cora's job?

[Old Red]

So besides catching he was supposed to do Cora's job?

 

And Bloom’s job?

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

And Bloom’s job?

 

I don't think it's Bloom's job to have the players ready to play.

[Old Red]

I don't think it's Bloom's job to have the players ready to play.

 

No it isn’t, but you kind of have something to work with first, and this team had a cloud hanging over it before the season started with Raffy, and Bogey’s contract situations. The team came out flat, and listless.

Edited August 7, 2022 by Old Red

[moonslav59]

So besides catching he was supposed to do Cora's job?

 

 

 

Of course not, and the team wins more with him than without.

 

I was making a point about hearing so many poster speak of how certain players are great in the clubhouse or "team leaders" everyone respects.

 

I'm not seeing the results of such great veteran leadership, either.

 

I'm not blaming Vaz or Bogey, but I find it odd those who blame Cora for the lack of focus and direction still praise the team leaders for being great leaders.

 

I also have my own private beef, it appears, about Vaz's CERA.

[Old Red]

Of course not, and the team wins more with him than without.

 

I was making a point about hearing so many poster speak of how certain players are great in the clubhouse or "team leaders" everyone respects.

 

I'm not seeing the results of such great veteran leadership, either.

 

I'm not blaming Vaz or Bogey, but I find it odd those who blame Cora for the lack of focus and direction still praise the team leaders for being great leaders.

I agree with you 100% that we’re not seeing the results of the leadership of Bloom, but then again maybe we are.

[oldtimer]

I agree with you 100% that we’re not seeing the results of the leadership of Bloom, but then again maybe we are.

 

In the words of Bill Parcell, "We are what the record says we are". We are a last place team with a high payroll. Certainly, some of the leadership people and players are responsible. A seeming lack of coherence in our direction has to make one wonder what is going on.

[moonslav59]

In the words of Bill Parcell, "We are what the record says we are". We are a last place team with a high payroll. Certainly, some of the leadership people and players are responsible. A seeming lack of coherence in our direction has to make one wonder what is going on.

 

I think the direction and plan is clear to management: build up the farm and strive for consistent- competitiveness.

 

This season was a cluster you-know-what, but I doubt it has changed the masterplan much.

 

The trades made at the deadline helped 2023 and beyond much more than 2022, even if just speculatively.

 

They had to balance fan outrage vs looking more to the future than the here and now. I guess they felt the fans could stomach trading Vaz over Nate & JD.

 

They added Hosmer (free 1Bman/DH for the next 2+ years), Pham (a RH'd OF'er), McGuire (a defensive plus catcher to possibly start or replace Plawecki in 2023) and a number of promising prospects for beyond 2023.

 

Some may not like the "direction," but to me it has been pretty clear.

 

I don't think management thought or planned to have highly competitive teams in 2021 or 2022, but 2021's success made following their complete rebuild plan harder to disguise. I think they hoped we'd be competitive enough to keep fans engaged and interested, and it worked in 2021. It failed miserably in 2022 for various reasons. It's easy to use injuries as an excuse, but this team had very little chance of winning it all, even with normal or expected amounts of injuries and "down seasons" expected every year.

 

There were just too many failures to sustain a competitive team in 2022. We had a brief period where everything seemed to be falling into place, but that was derailed in July.

 

The hope that Dalbec/Shaw and Casas could make 1B a break even or plus position turned into a nightmare. Cordero only made it worse.

Story's slow start and injury was barely offset by his stellar D and high RBI rate.

Bogey and JD's lack of run production was a bit unexpected and hurt like hell.

The OF's lack of production was expected, but the extreme to which it failed was probably worse than even the most pessimistic fan envisioned.

The Sale/Paxton injury status was to be expected, although the finger injury to Sale was unfortunate.

What we got from Wacha and Hill was probably better than expected, but simultaneous injuries to them, Sale and Nate put the kibosh on any hopes for 2022.

The pen was hurt badly by having to use Houck and Whitlock as starters, and the failed comeback by Barnes, which could have been expected. The magic Cora seemed to have with past pens did not occur in 2022. Diekman, Robbles and others turned into pumpkins, Strahm and Schreiber were breaths of fresh air, but neither was around for the whole season (Schreiber by choice.)

Cora's choices always seemed to be wrong, although many of his choices seemed, to me, to be seeking the lesser of multiple evils.

Bloom did okay with Wacha, Hill, Strahm, Refsnyder and Schreiber additions but failed with Diekman, Shaw and to a large extent, Story.

 

Add these all together, and it spells failure.

 

To me, it does not spell failure for 2023, though. We have an opportunity to greatly improve upon 2022 and even 2021's team. Bringing everyone back (Bogey, Nate, JD, Vaz & Kike) would not make us better, and might even make us worse. This team was headed for an overhaul, like it or not.

 

I'm hopeful Bloom will choose wisely, this winter, but certainly I am skeptical and apprehensive. The farm appears to be stronger and deeper from the rookie leagues to AAA than it was 3-6 years ago. They may all peeter out, but all we can do is try to improve it, and Bloom seemed like the right guy to do that. Watching some of DD's prospects rise higher than most of us expected has been a big boost to the farm, as well. Kudos to DD for that.

 

I hope we extend Devers, and then our framework for the future looks pretty good to me.

 

[Bellhorn04]

I think the direction and plan is clear to management: build up the farm and strive for consistent- competitiveness.

 

This season was a cluster you-know-what, but I doubt it has changed the masterplan much.

 

The trades made at the deadline helped 2023 and beyond much more than 2022, even if just speculatively.

 

They had to balance fan outrage vs looking more to the future than the here and now. I guess they felt the fans could stomach trading Vaz over Nate & JD.

 

They added Hosmer (free 1Bman/DH for the next 2+ years), Pham (a RH'd OF'er), McGuire (a defensive plus catcher to possibly start or replace Plawecki in 2023) and a number of promising prospects for beyond 2023.

 

Some may not like the "direction," but to me it has been pretty clear.

 

Bingo. I'm getting a little tired of people saying they don't know what the plan is. The fact is they just don't like the plan.

[jung]

Bingo. I'm getting a little tired of people saying they don't know what the plan is. The fact is they just don't like the plan.

 

For my part I get the plan. I just don't think its executable in Boston as I have expressed subtly in this very thread.

[Old Red]

Bingo. I'm getting a little tired of people saying they don't know what the plan is. The fact is they just don't like the plan.

 

I for one do know what the plan is, and I don’t like the plan, or the one trying to executing it. Everyone is entitled to have, and voice there opinion. Is doesn’t bother me with all the pro In Bloom we trust crowd. I don’t understand all the trust, and loyalty, because the results doesn’t warrant it, but it doesn’t bother me.

[notin]

Bingo. I'm getting a little tired of people saying they don't know what the plan is. The fact is they just don't like the plan.

 

+100

 

I’m not even saying I like the plan. But I do think it’s obvious, especially since we’ve been flat out told it numerous times…

[notin]

I for one do know what the plan is, and I don’t like the plan, or the one trying to executing it. Everyone is entitled to have, and voice there opinion. Is doesn’t bother me with all the pro In Bloom we trust crowd. I don’t understand all the trust, and loyalty, because the results doesn’t warrant it, but it doesn’t bother me.

 

No one likes any team plan that’s anything but “we’re trying to win it all.” But the whole idea of cleaning out the massive detrimental contracts and building up the farm to supply minimum wage players is essential if you want to compete every year.

 

Teams like the Dodgers and Padres have been spending on star after star because their farm can help them support it. Boston’s simply could not…

[Old Red]

No one likes any team plan that’s anything but “we’re trying to win it all.” But the whole idea of cleaning out the massive detrimental contracts and building up the farm to supply minimum wage players is essential if you want to compete every year.

 

Teams like the Dodgers and Padres have been spending on star after star because their farm can help them support it. Boston’s simply could not…

I’m all for building up the farm, but just don’t see it as the #1 priority to success. Like I said on another thread that keeping your star players, trades, and FA should all be part of the process.

[notin]

I’m all for building up the farm, but just don’t see it as the #1 priority to success. Like I said on another thread that keeping your star players, trades, and FA should all be part of the process.

 

I’m sure that’s part of it, but the problem has been all the other money.

 

The Sox have added free agents, made trades, and even extended one young star (Whitlock). Hopefully they can extend Devers, something made easier by having Hosmer on board (which seems weird to type to me).

 

But some discretion on the extension of young stars, because lots of players drop off significantly after age 32 or so. Do the Sox feel Bogaerts will? I can’t say, but it certainly is possible. And it might be correct, too…

[Old Red]

I’m sure that’s part of it, but the problem has been all the other money.

 

The Sox have added free agents, made trades, and even extended one young star (Whitlock). Hopefully they can extend Devers, something made easier by having Hosmer on board (which seems weird to type to me).

 

But some discretion on the extension of young stars, because lots of players drop off significantly after age 32 or so. Do the Sox feel Bogaerts will? I can’t say, but it certainly is possible. And it might be correct, too…

 

It’s hard to say on Bogey. Even though he has lots of hits this year it really doesn’t seem that way, and his power numbers are down, so is this year just a down year for power, or a sign that what will come eventually already has?

[moonslav59]

Bingo. I'm getting a little tired of people saying they don't know what the plan is. The fact is they just don't like the plan.

 

Plus, top brass can't exactly come out and say, "Our plan is to give fans the perception we will be competitive, while we make the extended future our top priority." They have to fill seats and keep viewership high.

 

Plus, I do think the plan was to be somewhat competitive in 2021 and 2022, but just not an all-in scenario many fans seem to expect, every year.

 

It worked in 2021. It did NOT work, this year. Had we just had the normal amount of injuries, I think we make the playoffs, but I'm not using injuries as an excuse. The 2022 team was not good enough to win it all, perhaps even with 100% health. We still had serious issues at 1B, RF and the pen. We also don't know if a 100% healthy Sale would be a great pitcher or not, if a 100% healthy Kike would repeat 2021 or not, if 100% healthy Barnes would be good or horrific. I could go on and on.

 

This wasn't a ring team, to begin with, and IMO, that's why Henry and Bloom decided not to go all in.

 

This was not the 2017 team looking forward to 2018.

[Elktonnick]

Bingo. I'm getting a little tired of people saying they don't know what the plan is. The fact is they just don't like the plan.

Lou Merloni spoke to Bloom about his plan. Merloni said that after that conversation it wasn't

clear whether Bloom was planning for Boston to be a serious contender in 23, 24 25 or whenever. Unless some one here has actually spoken to Bloom as has Merloni then I go with the latter's characterization of Bloom's plan or lack thereof.

[cp176]

i think that it is quite easy to say that there is a plan if you are seeing something that you agree with. Obviously players have been added to the farm. That likely is a plan that most teams have. You do have to have players. If that was the plan, then adding Story just doesn't seem to work. There have been so many moves that don't seem to make much sense but could certainly be considered part of the "build up the farm" plan. I hope that that farm gets built up quickly because if Bogaerts, Devers, etc. are allowed to escape this mess I think that it is going to be a long time before something worth watching will be in Fenway again.

[Bellhorn04]

Lou Merloni spoke to Bloom about his plan. Merloni said that after that conversation it wasn't

clear whether Bloom was planning for Boston to be a serious contender in 23, 24 25 or whenever. Unless some one here has actually spoken to Bloom as has Merloni then I go with the latter's characterization of Bloom's plan or lack thereof.

 

The front office said the plan was to rebuild and compete at the same time. In 2021 and 2022 competing meant having a good shot at making the playoffs each year. It succeeded last year and looks likely to fail this year for various reasons.

 

As for not divulging specific plans for 2023 to Merloni, that's to be expected. GM's are not supposed to tip their hand to the rest of baseball.

[Old Red]

Plus, top brass can't exactly come out and say, "Our plan is to give fans the perception we will be competitive, while we make the extended future our top priority." They have to fill seats and keep viewership high.

 

Plus, I do think the plan was to be somewhat competitive in 2021 and 2022, but just not an all-in scenario many fans seem to expect, every year.

 

It worked in 2021. It did NOT work, this year. Had we just had the normal amount of injuries, I think we make the playoffs, but I'm not using injuries as an excuse. The 2022 team was not good enough to win it all, perhaps even with 100% health. We still had serious issues at 1B, RF and the pen. We also don't know if a 100% healthy Sale would be a great pitcher or not, if a 100% healthy Kike would repeat 2021 or not, if 100% healthy Barnes would be good or horrific. I could go on and on.

 

This wasn't a ring team, to begin with, and IMO, that's why Henry and Bloom decided not to go all in.

 

This was not the 2017 team looking forward to 2018.

Most of the average fans I believe do not want to hear about extended future, but there is NO Reason not to be competitive every year unlike this year. The average fan doesn’t think about what the 40 man will look like next year, or any other year, and only care about what’s going on at the present time.

[Old Red]

The front office said the plan was to rebuild and compete at the same time. In 2021 and 2022 competing meant having a good shot at making the playoffs each year. It succeeded last year and looks likely to fail this year for various reasons.

 

As for not divulging specific plans for 2023 to Merloni, that's to be expected. GM's are not supposed to tip their hand to the rest of baseball.

 

Rebuild from what?

[cp176]

The front office said the plan was to rebuild and compete at the same time. In 2021 and 2022 competing meant having a good shot at making the playoffs each year. It succeeded last year and looks likely to fail this year for various reasons.

 

As for not divulging specific plans for 2023 to Merloni, that's to be expected. GM's are not supposed to tip their hand to the rest of baseball.

 

So Bell - this is what the plan is - rebuild and compete every year? I wonder if that has ever been said before? If that is the plan, then of course I am all for it. Let's go. sounds really simple to me.

[Bellhorn04]

Rebuild from what?

 

From the farm, and from payroll being freed up as contracts like JD's, Price's and Eovaldi's expire.