2022 Spring Training

[moonslav59]

A top ten list in anything is strictly a matter of opinion. WAR is just a formula that some guy came up with to try and calculate a player's value. It has it's flaws , just like any other system you might use. People like it because it gives one simple numerical rating to each player. Personally, I am satisfied with just watching the games and looking at the traditional stats. You shouldn't need much help to recognize the ability of guys like Trout , Betts , DeGrom , Scherzer and such.

 

One problem is that some of us don't get so see other comparable players play but 2-3 games a year, and some maybe zero. Others, in our division we might see 10-18 times a year. When speaking about who is the best, it's hard to use the eye test, when wild disparities in sample sizes exist.

 

One advantage of UZR/150 is that it is based on observations of every play in every game.

[Old Red]

One problem is that some of us don't get so see other comparable players play but 2-3 games a year, and some maybe zero. Others, in our division we might see 10-18 times a year. When speaking about who is the best, it's hard to use the eye test, when wild disparities in sample sizes exist.

 

One advantage of UZR/150 is that it is based on observations of every play in every game.

 

I don’t think the average fan has a need to know that stuff, or cares one way, or the other. I know I don’t. I’ve seen JBJ play the OF enough to see that he is a great outfielder, and could care less if he’s better, or worse than any other outfielder.

[Bellhorn04]

One problem is that some of us don't get so see other comparable players play but 2-3 games a year, and some maybe zero. Others, in our division we might see 10-18 times a year. When speaking about who is the best, it's hard to use the eye test, when wild disparities in sample sizes exist.

 

The eye test led me to believe Jeter was one of the best fielding shortstops. Not talking about the infamous jump throws, but the fact that he didn't make many errors, and his penchant for making the big play in the big moment.

[moonslav59]

The eye test led me to believe Jeter was one of the best fielding shortstops. Not talking about the infamous jump throws, but the fact that he didn't make many errors, and his penchant for making the big play in the big moment.

 

That's another fault of just using the eye test.

 

I think many baseball fans like to and do talk about who is the best or which player is better than the other.

 

They compare stats, and invariably, someone says, "but player X is a better fielder," and nobody can really quantify if the disparity outweighs the offensive disparity.

 

WAR attempts to do all that by using some pretty sound methods.

 

It sure beats using Fldg% and RF/9 and a host of offensive stats.

[Old Red]

The eye test led me to believe Jeter was one of the best fielding shortstops. Not talking about the infamous jump throws, but the fact that he didn't make many errors, and his penchant for making the big play in the big moment.

 

Doesn’t it depend on what you mean by best fielding? He didn’t have the range of others, but he could field the balls that he got to.

[Bellhorn04]

Doesn’t it depend on what you mean by best fielding? He didn’t have the range of others, but he could field the balls that he got to.

 

Well, you just captured the whole issue. The new metrics give credit to guys who get to balls that others don't. Errors are only one part of the equation.

[Old Red]

Well, you just captured the whole issue. The new metrics give credit to guys who get to balls that others don't. Errors are only one part of the equation.

 

I get it, but even without the new metrics you knew who had good range, and who didn’t infielder, or outfielder.

[Bellhorn04]

I get it, but even without the new metrics you knew who had good range, and who didn’t infielder, or outfielder.

 

Did you know that Jeter had terrible range for most of his career?

Edited April 2, 2022 by Bellhorn04

[Old Red]

Did you know that Jeter had terrible range for most of his career?

 

I saw him play many times, but never really thought that much about it, but I know the talk was out there. It did appear that he fielded most that he got to, and looked pretty smooth doing it.

[Bellhorn04]

I saw him play many times, but never really thought that much about it, but I know the talk was out there. It did appear that he fielded most that he got to, and looked pretty smooth doing it.

 

Seems like you're evading the point now. He was a minus fielder but most people assumed he was a plus fielder because of the low error rate. And the Gold Glove awards he got were a joke.

[Old Red]

Seems like you're evading the point now. He was a minus fielder but most people assumed he was a plus fielder because of the low error rate. And the Gold Glove awards he got were a joke.

 

I’m not trying to evade anything, but I just don’t care that much about it. I like good defense as much as anyone, but I just don’t think about it that much on how much range someone has compared to someone else, and I’m not a big fan of gold glove awards either.

[Bellhorn04]

I’m not trying to evade anything, but I just don’t care that much about it. I like good defense as much as anyone, but I just don’t think about it that much on how much range someone has compared to someone else, and I’m not a big fan of gold glove awards either.

 

First you said "even without the new metrics you knew who had good range".

 

Now you're saying you don't think about it or care about it much, which is a whole different thing.

[Old Red]

First you said "even without the new metrics you knew who had good range".

 

Now you're saying you don't think about it or care about it much, which is a whole different thing.

 

I wasn’t talking about me specifically when I said you knew who had good range, or not, and was talking about scouting reports that has been around for many years. I’ve watched Red Sox SS since Eddie Bressoud, and I just can’t say I thought to much who had good range, and who didn’t. I don’t think Rico, Burrelson, Hoffman, Johnny V, or Bogey today were rangy SS, but they got the job done, and wouldn’t care where they stood on the metric scale.

[Larry Cook]

Does Shaw make this team? He had not been very impressive at the plate thus far and today he had an e3.

[Tedballgame]

Does Shaw make this team? He had not been very impressive at the plate thus far and today he had an e3.

 

Probably playing his way off of the roster.

[Larry Cook]

Probably playing his way off of the roster.

 

Maybe he can take diekman out of town with him!

[Tedballgame]

Maybe he can take diekman out of town with him!

 

Diekman could be this year's Matt Andriese.

[Swiharts Ghost]

Doesn’t it depend on what you mean by best fielding? He didn’t have the range of others, but he could field the balls that he got to.

 

Shhhh your making too much sense man .One in particular poster can’t stand other views ! Careful

[S5Dewey]

At the distinct possibility of pissing some people off here....

 

To me WAR is something invented by stat geeks to aid in the strategy of baseball. At the fan level it serves to form and then validate the opinions of other stat geeks. Let's face it... none of us see enough games with enough different players to form opinions of our own as to who's the better player. We all have biases created by what we see and read and when we read that WAR is saying that Player A has a better WAR than Player B we believe that Player A is better because... WAR said so. And then we repeat that Player A is better than Player B and we use WAR as "proof". It's a self-perpetuating thing.

 

Is JBJ better than Kiermeyer? Is Bogearts the best all around SS in baseball? Do I care? No, I don't. I'm watching the game to watch the game, not to be trying to establish an opinion of who's better.

 

I like the old fashioned stats- BA, ERA, etc.. I've even taken a liking to OPS because they tell me something I don't need to take someone else's opinion of. I prefer to make my own opinions based on what I see. Sometimes I'm right and sometimes I'm wrong by at least the opinions are MINE and I'm not parroting what I have read someplace else.

I see a place for advanced metrics in baseball and it's at the management level. IMO when advanced metrics are applied at the fan level I'm reminded of what Bill James said, "I've made baseball as much fun as doing your taxes."

 

But.. as usual, that's JMO.

[illinoisredsox]

Probably playing his way off of the roster.

 

Doesn’t he need to play his way onto the roster? He’s at best on a minor league deal right now; I know he’s not on the 40 man.

[Old Red]

At the distinct possibility of pissing some people off here....

 

To me WAR is something invented by stat geeks to aid in the strategy of baseball. At the fan level it serves to form and then validate the opinions of other stat geeks. Let's face it... none of us see enough games with enough different players to form opinions of our own as to who's the better player. We all have biases created by what we see and read and when we read that WAR is saying that Player A has a better WAR than Player B we believe that Player A is better because... WAR said so. And then we repeat that Player A is better than Player B and we use WAR as "proof". It's a self-perpetuating thing.

 

Is JBJ better than Kiermeyer? Is Bogearts the best all around SS in baseball? Do I care? No, I don't. I'm watching the game to watch the game, not to be trying to establish an opinion of who's better.

 

I like the old fashioned stats- BA, ERA, etc.. I've even taken a liking to OPS because they tell me something I don't need to take someone else's opinion of. I prefer to make my own opinions based on what I see. Sometimes I'm right and sometimes I'm wrong by at least the opinions are MINE and I'm not parroting what I have read someplace else.

I see a place for advanced metrics in baseball and it's at the management level. IMO when advanced metrics are applied at the fan level I'm reminded of what Bill James said, "I've made baseball as much fun as doing your taxes."

 

But.. as usual, that's JMO.

 

I watch baseball the same way today as I did watching baseball when I first started watching 60+ years ago. In other words just like metrics never happened. To me metrics is reading a box score, and there is nothing wrong with looking at things that way. On the other hand the ones who like metrics, and can’t do with out it, and look at things that way there is nothing wrong with that either.

[notin]

At the distinct possibility of pissing some people off here....

 

To me WAR is something invented by stat geeks to aid in the strategy of baseball. At the fan level it serves to form and then validate the opinions of other stat geeks. Let's face it... none of us see enough games with enough different players to form opinions of our own as to who's the better player. We all have biases created by what we see and read and when we read that WAR is saying that Player A has a better WAR than Player B we believe that Player A is better because... WAR said so. And then we repeat that Player A is better than Player B and we use WAR as "proof". It's a self-perpetuating thing.

 

Is JBJ better than Kiermeyer? Is Bogearts the best all around SS in baseball? Do I care? No, I don't. I'm watching the game to watch the game, not to be trying to establish an opinion of who's better.

 

I like the old fashioned stats- BA, ERA, etc.. I've even taken a liking to OPS because they tell me something I don't need to take someone else's opinion of. I prefer to make my own opinions based on what I see. Sometimes I'm right and sometimes I'm wrong by at least the opinions are MINE and I'm not parroting what I have read someplace else.

I see a place for advanced metrics in baseball and it's at the management level. IMO when advanced metrics are applied at the fan level I'm reminded of what Bill James said, "I've made baseball as much fun as doing your taxes."

 

But.. as usual, that's JMO.

 

You really love that Bill James quote as if it was his actual opinion and not something he said on an episode of The Simpsons and was not even written by him. Context might matter.

 

Al Gore also played D&D in that episode with Gary Gygax and Nichelle Nichols (aka Uhura from Star Trek), which might not be the activity neither Gore nor Nichols are best known for. (But Gygax is)…

[notin]

First you said "even without the new metrics you knew who had good range".

 

Now you're saying you don't think about it or care about it much, which is a whole different thing.

 

He does that a lot, like when he doesn’t care about prospects until they reach Boston, but he does care about draft picks…

[moonslav59]

At the distinct possibility of pissing some people off here....

 

To me WAR is something invented by stat geeks to aid in the strategy of baseball. At the fan level it serves to form and then validate the opinions of other stat geeks. Let's face it... none of us see enough games with enough different players to form opinions of our own as to who's the better player. We all have biases created by what we see and read and when we read that WAR is saying that Player A has a better WAR than Player B we believe that Player A is better because... WAR said so. And then we repeat that Player A is better than Player B and we use WAR as "proof". It's a self-perpetuating thing.

 

Is JBJ better than Kiermeyer? Is Bogearts the best all around SS in baseball? Do I care? No, I don't. I'm watching the game to watch the game, not to be trying to establish an opinion of who's better.

 

I like the old fashioned stats- BA, ERA, etc.. I've even taken a liking to OPS because they tell me something I don't need to take someone else's opinion of. I prefer to make my own opinions based on what I see. Sometimes I'm right and sometimes I'm wrong by at least the opinions are MINE and I'm not parroting what I have read someplace else.

I see a place for advanced metrics in baseball and it's at the management level. IMO when advanced metrics are applied at the fan level I'm reminded of what Bill James said, "I've made baseball as much fun as doing your taxes."

 

But.. as usual, that's JMO.

 

WAR doesn't settle any arguments. Hell, we have two different WARs that disagree enough to even cause some new watercooler debates.

 

I guess to some fans enjoy the new toy. Others could care less, and others see it as some sort of infringement on their traditions.

 

BTW, I have never heard a single person or poster say this guy is better that that guy only because WAR says so. They use it to support theirposition the same way someone uses OPS or some old-schooler uses BA and Fldg%.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I've accepted WAR, because it's designed to evaluate a player's overall value based on a combination of offense and defense. An issue for old-timers like me is that none of the WAR sites use the exact same formula, and even if they did, it's too complicated or time-consuming to calculate for the average fan (unlike counting stats or batting averages).

 

Both Fangraphs and BB-Ref caution that WAR is an estimate and that players shouldn't be definitively compared to the tenths place. And yet, isn't our whole concept of numerical values based on totals?

 

And could someone please tell me why past WAR changes? Everytime I look at the 2018 Red Sox, Mookie's WAR is different: 10.7, 10.6, 10.8... and that season is still in the past.

[cp176]

At the distinct possibility of pissing some people off here....

 

To me WAR is something invented by stat geeks to aid in the strategy of baseball. At the fan level it serves to form and then validate the opinions of other stat geeks. Let's face it... none of us see enough games with enough different players to form opinions of our own as to who's the better player. We all have biases created by what we see and read and when we read that WAR is saying that Player A has a better WAR than Player B we believe that Player A is better because... WAR said so. And then we repeat that Player A is better than Player B and we use WAR as "proof". It's a self-perpetuating thing.

 

Is JBJ better than Kiermeyer? Is Bogearts the best all around SS in baseball? Do I care? No, I don't. I'm watching the game to watch the game, not to be trying to establish an opinion of who's better.

 

I like the old fashioned stats- BA, ERA, etc.. I've even taken a liking to OPS because they tell me something I don't need to take someone else's opinion of. I prefer to make my own opinions based on what I see. Sometimes I'm right and sometimes I'm wrong by at least the opinions are MINE and I'm not parroting what I have read someplace else.

I see a place for advanced metrics in baseball and it's at the management level. IMO when advanced metrics are applied at the fan level I'm reminded of what Bill James said, "I've made baseball as much fun as doing your taxes."

 

But.. as usual, that's JMO.

 

I think that you pretty much summed up how I feel. Personally, advanced metrics for me entailed playing Strato in 1965 enabling me to learn basic math facts as fast as I could. I was motivated. When it comes to the game of baseball, i'm fine with using the tools that I grew up with to help me follow the progress of the players I enjoy watching. To each his own I say with respect to the ongoing debate. As an aside, in part due to advanced analytics, I cannot stand to watch an NBA game. Too many threes for me at the expense of much of the basic strategy that I grew up to love about the game. I worry from time to time that baseball is heading in the same direction. Oh well, things change and evolve I guess.

[cp176]

I watch baseball the same way today as I did watching baseball when I first started watching 60+ years ago. In other words just like metrics never happened. To me metrics is reading a box score, and there is nothing wrong with looking at things that way. On the other hand the ones who like metrics, and can’t do with out it, and look at things that way there is nothing wrong with that either.

 

 

The beauty of this is that I don't think that a comprehension of advanced metrics really makes for a better or in general a more knowledgeable fan of the game. I still believe in some of the old basics of the game that I grew up with that advanced metrics have seem to have proven to be nearly useless such as a bunt to move runners along as well as the stolen base. Taking these types of strategies out of the game makes it much less enjoyable to me to watch but as I said before, things seem to evolve.

[S5Dewey]

You really love that Bill James quote as if it was his actual opinion and not something he said on an episode of The Simpsons and was not even written by him. Context might matter.

 

Yeah, I do love that quote. It's because it's true. Sabermetrics reduces the grand ol' game to nothing more than numbers and IMO that's a shame.

 

Do you have evidence that those weren't his words and that James didn't say it, the writers liked it and inserted them in the episode? Because "Bill James gets to deliver one line in his own voice: 'I made baseball as much fun as doing your taxes!"'

 

https://philipschaefer.com/2010/11/12/the-simpsons-recognize-bill-james/

 

If you've read James at all you know that he has a keen sense of humor and at times has alluded to how 'dry' sabermetrics makes baseball.

[Bellhorn04]

Yeah, I do love that quote. It's because it's true. Sabermetrics reduces the grand ol' game to nothing more than numbers and IMO that's a shame.

 

Do you have evidence that those weren't his words and that James didn't say it, the writers liked it and inserted them in the episode? Because "Bill James gets to deliver one line in his own voice: 'I made baseball as much fun as doing your taxes!"'

 

https://philipschaefer.com/2010/11/12/the-simpsons-recognize-bill-james/

 

If you've read James at all you know that he has a keen sense of humor and at times has alluded to how 'dry' sabermetrics makes baseball.

 

Well Dewey, no offense whatsoever, but if an old school fan like Old Red can just ignore the advanced metrics and not let them have any impact on his enjoyment, why can't you do the same? You seem to go out of your way to let the advanced metrics bother you.

 

(Just trying to stir up more discussion.)

[notin]

Well Dewey, no offense whatsoever, but if an old school fan like Old Red can just ignore the advanced metrics and not let them have any impact on his enjoyment, why can't you do the same? You seem to go out of your way to let the advanced metrics bother you.

 

(Just trying to stir up more discussion.)

 

And the gist of this latest rant is “metrics are not meant for fans and you people are ruining it for me.”

 

No thought for whether anyone else enjoys them, I guess…