Sox starting pitching thread

[Bellhorn04]

And not using the present value thing, Scherzer's deal was for $210mill, which was the number that caused a lot of market noise.

 

While Washington probably saved some value by deferring money (Fangraphs estimated it was closer to $131mill than $195mill), the future of that market was not as known, either. But I'm not going to argue economics with an accountant. Washington probably did well with their financing. The real issue was the $30mill AAV they placed on starting pitching, which was a previously unbroken barrier...

 

MLPBA calculated it at 191.4 million.

[notin]

MLPBA calculated it at 191.4 million.

 

I said I am not arguing economics with an accountant...

[a700hitter]

I said I am not arguing economics with an accountant...

I am still wondering what you meant by "singing large market praises".

[notin]

I am still wondering what you meant by "singing large market praises".

 

Yeah maybe I got too colorful.

 

Basically the strategy he was proposing for running a large market team still has the same flaws, as we have seen with a few other teams. Detroit acquired talent the same way with the same guy in charge, and what happened is obvious. But even other teams have fallen into that same trap of winding up with a roster of overpriced talent, making keeping their younger players difficult beyond arbitration.

[a700hitter]

Yeah maybe I got too colorful.

 

Basically the strategy he was proposing for running a large market team still has the same flaws, as we have seen with a few other teams. Detroit acquired talent the same way with the same guy in charge, and what happened is obvious. But even other teams have fallen into that same trap of winding up with a roster of overpriced talent, making keeping their younger players difficult beyond arbitration.

Basically, you are saying that other big market teams have been run poorly. His point still stands. It was not acceptable the way Ben ran a big market team.

[SoxHop]

Steven Wright’s sore knee is not getting better.

“Not having great days — he’s been throwing and all that but he’s still sore, we have to see what we’re going to do next week,” said Cora. “It’s taking longer than expected. …

 

Left-hander Drew Pomeranz will remain with Pawtucket after another uninspiring appearance on Friday.

“We want him to go deeper in the games,” said Cora. “He’ll pitch again on Wednesday. The reports, he was OK.

“Velocity is not up. It’s been 89, 90, I think. Inconsistent with the breaking stuff. I read something (Friday) about, 3-0 count somebody swung and hit a home run. Well, they swing at 3-0 counts here, too.”

 

Cora on ERod

“It looks bad, but he’s moving it around, which is encouraging,” manager Alex Cora said. “We have to go through the tests and all that and see what happens.”

[notin]

Basically, you are saying that other big market teams have been run poorly. His point still stands. It was not acceptable the way Ben ran a big market team.

 

The thing is, it does look like a lot of the “poorly” run big market approach looks like an inevitable fallout from that method. And if the goal was to avoid that fallout, there light be an upfront price of a bad season or two.

 

The issue for fans is, many don’t like new ideas. “When you run a big market team, you spend money! When those players stop performing - which is totally the fault of the GM for signing the wrong guy - you spend money and trade bad player!! Losing is not acceptable!!”

 

And for a guy to come in and say “I think wa can be like the 1990’s Atlanta Braves, who didn’t spend a lot but we’re insanely successful,” fans then cry “No!! Not what a large market team does !! Spend money and take your blame when it fails!!”

[a700hitter]

The thing is, it does look like a lot of the “poorly” run big market approach looks like an inevitable fallout from that method. And if the goal was to avoid that fallout, there light be an upfront price of a bad season or two.

 

The issue for fans is, many don’t like new ideas. “When you run a big market team, you spend money! When those players stop performing - which is totally the fault of the GM for signing the wrong guy - you spend money and trade bad player!! Losing is not acceptable!!”

 

And for a guy to come in and say “I think wa can be like the 1990’s Atlanta Braves, who didn’t spend a lot but we’re insanely successful,” fans then cry “No!! Not what a large market team does !! Spend money and take your blame when it fails!!”

When have the Yankees finished last for 2 or 3 years in a 4 year period,,, or the Dodgers?

[moonslav59]

When have the Yankees finished last for 2 or 3 years in a 4 year period,,, or the Dodgers?

 

When have the Yankess won a WS since 2001?

 

They haven't even made the WS since 2003.

 

Look, the 3 last places sucked. Ben should get the blame for some of most of that, but the teams he put on the field seemed to be better than they played- kind of like last year's Sox under performances by just about everyone. The 2012, 2014 and 2015 didn't look that much different than the 2013 ring team at the start of each season.

 

Blaming Ben is justified, but a heck of a lot of players came up far short of expectations.

 

The results are what they are, and last places finishes suck more than 4th or 3rd place finishes, but maybe my Sox fandom from the early 70's to 2003 has influenced my outlook.

 

I'd have died and gone to heaven for just 1 ring, even if it was surrounded by 10 years of last place finishes.

 

[Bellhorn04]

When have the Yankess won a WS since 2001?

 

They haven't even made the WS since 2003.

 

Sorry buddy, as much as I'd like to forget it too, they won in 2009.

[moonslav59]

Sorry buddy, as much as I'd like to forget it too, they won in 2009.

 

Oooops.

 

Still, Ben has a ring since before the last Yankee ring.

[a700hitter]

When have the Yankess won a WS since 2001?

 

They haven't even made the WS since 2003.

 

Look, the 3 last places sucked. Ben should get the blame for some of most of that, but the teams he put on the field seemed to be better than they played- kind of like last year's Sox under performances by just about everyone. The 2012, 2014 and 2015 didn't look that much different than the 2013 ring team at the start of each season.

 

Blaming Ben is justified, but a heck of a lot of players came up far short of expectations.

 

The results are what they are, and last places finishes suck more than 4th or 3rd place finishes, but maybe my Sox fandom from the early 70's to 2003 has influenced my outlook.

 

I'd have died and gone to heaven for just 1 ring, even if it was surrounded by 10 years of last place finishes.

 

The point being discussed was whether or not it was an acceptable progression for a big market team to go through an abysmal period like the Red Sox did with the last place finishes. I don't think it is.

[a700hitter]

Oooops.

 

Still, Ben has a ring since before the last Yankee ring.

And you still missed the point being discussed.

[cp176]

When have the Yankess won a WS since 2001?

 

They haven't even made the WS since 2003.

 

Look, the 3 last places sucked. Ben should get the blame for some of most of that, but the teams he put on the field seemed to be better than they played- kind of like last year's Sox under performances by just about everyone. The 2012, 2014 and 2015 didn't look that much different than the 2013 ring team at the start of each season.

 

Blaming Ben is justified, but a heck of a lot of players came up far short of expectations.

 

The results are what they are, and last places finishes suck more than 4th or 3rd place finishes, but maybe my Sox fandom from the early 70's to 2003 has influenced my outlook.

 

I'd have died and gone to heaven for just 1 ring, even if it was surrounded by 10 years of last place finishes.

 

 

I've never been able to understand this. I'm glad that we have won our championships but since I have always felt that in this modern era when you have to play what seems like 4000 playoff games, you really have to be lucky to win the big one. It is like playing another mini-season. I want a team that competes and has a chance every year. I will never be tolerant of finishing last so that we can - repeat after me - wait till next year. The early to mid 60's sucked for me. No excuse for a large market team like the Sox to ever finish last. I want them to compete and if they should win it is all good.

[vegasbob]

With Rodriguez's injury being " serious" even without surgery, DD will be forced to chase down a veteran starter who can eat some innings and hold the fort through July , August and September. I now think the LH reliever and a RH starter outweigh any concerns about a second baseman, particulalry if Phillips shows any life working his way back up. This was dscussed a few weeks ago and some thought pursuing another starter was a non-starter. Not so.

[moonslav59]

The point being discussed was whether or not it was an acceptable progression for a big market team to go through an abysmal period like the Red Sox did with the last place finishes. I don't think it is.

 

Of course a team spending so much money should compete every year. I've never denied the last place finishes sucked, and 3 in 4 years is awful.

 

I'm able to get the point being discussed and add my own slant to it, aren't I?

 

I suffered through countless heartbreaks over several decades. I actually was known to say on several occasions, "I'd gladly suffer through 10 last place finishes for just one ring!" I meant it. I wasn't alone in those feelings, and we were a pretty big spender almost every year I've been a Sox fan. We weren't the spenders the Yanks were, but we were often 2nd to 5th in spending.

 

I'm not thrilled with 3 last place finishes and one ring for a 4 year stretch, but I'd take that over any 4 year stretch from 1971 to 2003- hands down- no debate.

 

This doesn't make Ben look like a genius, and I've never claimed he was. My position has been that he did a lot to move the team in the right direction despite the gaffs and massive under performances by many of his players in those 3 bad years. Many of the players doing poorly in those 3 years were the same ones doing very well in 2011, 2013 and/or 2016. I'm not calling those years snake bitten and trying to excuse Ben from all blame, but I find myself trying to show that he wasn't as bad as some seem to make him out to be.

 

He made many good moves that seem to be largely ignored by some who, at times, seem to imply that all he did was draft badly, sign badly and trade badly.

 

We don't win in 2013 without Uehara, the Dodger dump trade that allowed us to sign Vic, naps, Drew and others, and we don't get many of the players DD has acquired without the guys Ben acquired for him to unload. He deserves much of the blame, but he also deserves some of the credit for our recent winning teams, despite no ring yet for DD & the Sox.

 

[moonslav59]

 

I've never been able to understand this. I'm glad that we have won our championships but since I have always felt that in this modern era when you have to play what seems like 4000 playoff games, you really have to be lucky to win the big one. It is like playing another mini-season. I want a team that competes and has a chance every year. I will never be tolerant of finishing last so that we can - repeat after me - wait till next year. The early to mid 60's sucked for me. No excuse for a large market team like the Sox to ever finish last. I want them to compete and if they should win it is all good.

 

I want us to compete every year, too, but once I we got that first ring in 2004, I got spoiled. The 2007 ring just made me crave rings more than just about anything else.

 

No, we shouldn't have to suffer through 3 last places to win a ring while spending as much or more than anyone else, but after the 30+ seasons of despair, maybe I'm a little more forgiving than most for owners and GM who try to put good teams (on paper) out there every year, even if it doesn't always work out every year. 3 out of 4 is gross. It's horrible, and I suffered as much as anybody here, don't get me wrong. However, that ring in 2013 was a beaut. I'm thankful to Ben for that and for providing the building blocks for a long future of high competitiveness, which to me, is actually the best way to build a long term successful team.

 

DD took that value and shot for a 4-5 year window. I'm not disliking what he did, but no doubt, he has capitalized on Ben's foundation and made a big signing just about equal in value to HRam + pablo that hasn't worked out too well either.

 

Let's assume DD gets us 4 division championships, 3 early exits and 1 WS loss, is that better than what Ben gave us after factoring in how each left the farm after 4 years?

 

I say, at worst, it's pretty close to even, but I'll take what Ben gave us, maybe because I lived through 3+ decades of pain and frustration.

[Emp9]

With Rodriguez's injury being " serious" even without surgery, DD will be forced to chase down a veteran starter who can eat some innings and hold the fort through July , August and September. I now think the LH reliever and a RH starter outweigh any concerns about a second baseman, particulalry if Phillips shows any life working his way back up. This was dscussed a few weeks ago and some thought pursuing another starter was a non-starter. Not so.

 

I wasn’t too concerned about our #5 SP slot with our top 4 still healthy, but I am now ( #4 & #5 ) with Erod’s injury. We may have to make a move now. Which sucks. I was hoping Wright (& Pom) would’ve been making better progress than he has. Hopefully the AS break gives us time to reset the rotation and buy us a little time. Velazquez & Beeks need to step up in the meantime. I’d hold off on a BP move (Thornburg’s last 2 appearances were ok), and a 2B/IF move ( between Nunez, Holt, Lin, maybe even Swihart, we can piece something together there). Those could be considered luxury moves when compared to the backend of our rotation. It’s not a red alert yet... but it’s definitely a light shade of orange.

[cp176]

I want us to compete every year, too, but once I we got that first ring in 2004, I got spoiled. The 2007 ring just made me crave rings more than just about anything else.

 

No, we shouldn't have to suffer through 3 last places to win a ring while spending as much or more than anyone else, but after the 30+ seasons of despair, maybe I'm a little more forgiving than most for owners and GM who try to put good teams (on paper) out there every year, even if it doesn't always work out every year. 3 out of 4 is gross. It's horrible, and I suffered as much as anybody here, don't get me wrong. However, that ring in 2013 was a beaut. I'm thankful to Ben for that and for providing the building blocks for a long future of high competitiveness, which to me, is actually the best way to build a long term successful team.

 

DD took that value and shot for a 4-5 year window. I'm not disliking what he did, but no doubt, he has capitalized on Ben's foundation and made a big signing just about equal in value to HRam + pablo that hasn't worked out too well either.

 

Let's assume DD gets us 4 division championships, 3 early exits and 1 WS loss, is that better than what Ben gave us after factoring in how each left the farm after 4 years?

 

I say, at worst, it's pretty close to even, but I'll take what Ben gave us, maybe because I lived through 3+ decades of pain and frustration.

 

You and I Moon are going to disagree on this one I'm afraid. The satisfaction of winning a World Series championship is for sure a great thing and i truly appreciate the efforts of all who helped us get them. I think that I am different I guess because honestly it is more about the hunt the chase for a title for me. I have not been spoiled by what this team has done in the past. Every year is different and i enjoy the season as I think that you do from March to as long as we go into the fall. Personally the season represents a life cycle for me in a way. Gives me something to really look forward to daily I guess. There is too much luck involved during the second season for me to worry too much about it. For me it really is all about getting there and then I am absolutely willing to take what happens in the playoff season which I think is far to long. Winning a World Series championship clearly doesn't mean as much to me as it does to most I guess. I don't expect them regardless of how many regular season games we win and I would never hold a GM responsible for not winning one. A good GM puts you in a position to win year after year. I think that is exactly what is happening right now and I am overjoyed by that.

[Maxbialystock]

This is an unimportant item, but I gotta say it about Sox pitchers. At least two starters--Pomeranz (thankfully on the DL) and ERod are very slow to cover 1b on grounders to the right. ERod's sprained ankle Saturday was entirely because he was late getting to 1B. Sale, on the other hand, is great getting to 1B and fielding his position. On the radio the other night, one of the announcers reported that Sandy Leon told him (or another reporter) than Sale had not shaken off a single sign the entire season. Pomeranz, on the other hand, always seems to have an endless debate going on in his head about what pitch to throw next--if any at all. Consequently, he clearly is not ready to field his position once the ball is released. ERod trends that way but isn't as bad. There may be others.

[Maxbialystock]

You and I Moon are going to disagree on this one I'm afraid. The satisfaction of winning a World Series championship is for sure a great thing and i truly appreciate the efforts of all who helped us get them. I think that I am different I guess because honestly it is more about the hunt the chase for a title for me. I have not been spoiled by what this team has done in the past. Every year is different and i enjoy the season as I think that you do from March to as long as we go into the fall. Personally the season represents a life cycle for me in a way. Gives me something to really look forward to daily I guess. There is too much luck involved during the second season for me to worry too much about it. For me it really is all about getting there and then I am absolutely willing to take what happens in the playoff season which I think is far to long. Winning a World Series championship clearly doesn't mean as much to me as it does to most I guess. I don't expect them regardless of how many regular season games we win and I would never hold a GM responsible for not winning one. A good GM puts you in a position to win year after year. I think that is exactly what is happening right now and I am overjoyed by that.

 

Now that the 86 year drought has ended and the Sox have actually won two more WS since 2004, yours is a sensible position. And it is helped by the fact that several teams--lately, 10--now get to the postseason when before it was just two. If you grew up as a fan during "before it was just two" era, you might think winning that one and only Series was the big deal.

 

Interestingly, I gather that John Henry prefers to go for the gold, or how else do you explain firing a manager who won the AL East division his final two years? And, yes, I am aware that the vast majority of talksoxers were very much in favor of canning Farrell after last year if not earlier.

[cp176]

This is an unimportant item, but I gotta say it about Sox pitchers. At least two starters--Pomeranz (thankfully on the DL) and ERod are very slow to cover 1b on grounders to the right. ERod's sprained ankle Saturday was entirely because he was late getting to 1B. Sale, on the other hand, is great getting to 1B and fielding his position. On the radio the other night, one of the announcers reported that Sandy Leon told him (or another reporter) than Sale had not shaken off a single sign the entire season. Pomeranz, on the other hand, always seems to have an endless debate going on in his head about what pitch to throw next--if any at all. Consequently, he clearly is not ready to field his position once the ball is released. ERod trends that way but isn't as bad. There may be others.

 

It is never an easy thing for a pitcher to cover first base for sure but it is a lot tougher for a left hander than it is for a righty. Sale's overall fitness level gives him an advantage over most. He is a lot lot lot quicker than the average left hander is getting over there.

[S5Dewey]

You and I Moon are going to disagree on this one I'm afraid. The satisfaction of winning a World Series championship is for sure a great thing and i truly appreciate the efforts of all who helped us get them. I think that I am different I guess because honestly it is more about the hunt the chase for a title for me. I have not been spoiled by what this team has done in the past. Every year is different and i enjoy the season as I think that you do from March to as long as we go into the fall. Personally the season represents a life cycle for me in a way. Gives me something to really look forward to daily I guess. There is too much luck involved during the second season for me to worry too much about it. For me it really is all about getting there and then I am absolutely willing to take what happens in the playoff season which I think is far to long. Winning a World Series championship clearly doesn't mean as much to me as it does to most I guess. I don't expect them regardless of how many regular season games we win and I would never hold a GM responsible for not winning one. A good GM puts you in a position to win year after year. I think that is exactly what is happening right now and I am overjoyed by that.

 

...and then there's a third position.

 

It is never acceptable for a team with the payroll of the Red Sox to finish last and it's the responsibility of the GM to see that it doesn't happen. I recognize that there are a lot of things - including luck - that go into winning the WS so frequent WSC championships aren't a realistic expectation but they should be respectable during their down years, using those years to to reload for a real pennant run.

 

I'm not interested in hearing "Wait 'til next year" year after year. I believe that when the FO sees that this may be THE YEAR they should pull out all the stops to win while retaining a core group of players that will make them respectable in coming years. They should identify those players and attempt to do what it takes to keep them. At this moment I see those players as Betts, Benintendi, possibly Bogaearts, and Sale. We're in the midst of a big run right now. I'm not advocating blowing the team up while retaining those four when this run is over but at the same time IMO everyone else should available for trade to one extent or another.

 

In short, look at your talent, decide when your best chances are, and make that run while you can. Then reload and give it another shot. But this business of having 25 years of "Wait til next year" smacks of the FO not being necessary to do what they need to in order to win as long as the fannies are in the seats that the money pipeline is flowing.

[jacksonianmarch]

You can’t have a wait til next year approach. Your studs aside from Beni are getting expensive. Your second best pitcher is a FA at season’s end. You’ve got one more year on your ace and on JDM. If Henry doesn’t have the final threshold as a true barrier, then spend on and reinforce the team. The Sox need a real setup man as Kelly has been terrible of late and nobody else has stepped up. If ERod is out for awhile (6 weeks or so) then I’d also get a back end starter to pair with Johnson. Winning the 1 seed is incredibly important. Home field was very important for the Astros last year. Facing the Yanks, home field is even more important. I always thought Henry wouldn’t surpass the final hurdle, but it seems he’s willing.

[notin]

The point being discussed was whether or not it was an acceptable progression for a big market team to go through an abysmal period like the Red Sox did with the last place finishes. I don't think it is.

 

Whether you find it acceptable or not, it happens. The Giants did it last year. And the Mets might only be saved from doing it this year because the Marlins traded away all their major leaguers...

[jacksonianmarch]

There are times when a team will broadcast a rebuild. Yanks in 2016. Marlins this year. The Sox were broadcasting that they were going for it and ended in last place twice. That’s the difference. Perception is important

[Hitch]

Ben brought a WS to the club. He was a success, regardless of what happened the other 3 years.

[a700hitter]

Whether you find it acceptable or not, it happens. The Giants did it last year. And the Mets might only be saved from doing it this year because the Marlins traded away all their major leaguers...

That it happens doesn’t mean that it is acceptable. It only means that those GMs have done a poor job. As to the Mets, they are a terribly run organization.

[mvp 78]

When you have a rotation filled with injury prone guys (ERod, Wright, Price, Porcello) you must expect injuries to pop up an inopportune moments. I'm surprised that Price hasn't had a return of his 2017 issues.

[a700hitter]

Ben brought a WS to the club. He was a success, regardless of what happened the other 3 years.

He had a successful year, but his over all record was dogshit. I have said it before. If baseball regarded him so highly as his devotees on this board, he would be a GM somewhere. He took his one year break at Columbia and no one was offering him a GM job.

 

Edit: The market often does hire incompetents, but it never leaves competent high performers on the side lines.

Edited July 16, 2018 by a700hitter