Sox starting pitching thread

[moonslav59]

Did I happen to mention how happy I am we have...

 

Chris Freakin' Sale!

 

He's the only pitcher in MLB to ever have 5 straight games with 11+ Ks and just 1 BB in all 5 starts.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Ben must have been about the flukiest GM ever though.

 

Ben started his GM job on a high note when he cleaned up Theo's mess with the help of the Dodgers.

[moonslav59]

Ben started his GM job on a high note when he cleaned up Theo's mess with the help of the Dodgers.

 

I still think the Dodger dump trade was one of the Red Sox alltime best trades, and yet it seems forgotten by those who just see the bad in Ben.

 

(Note" there was a lot of bad to harp on, granted.)

[Fan_since_Boggs]

Great trade with the Dodgers, but then Ben C. turned around and signed Hanley, Sandoval, and Castillo--3 brutal contracts that will haunt Cherrington forever and will likely undermine his chances of becoming a GM again.

[Bellhorn04]

I still think the Dodger dump trade was one of the Red Sox alltime best trades, and yet it seems forgotten by those who just see the bad in Ben.

 

(Note" there was a lot of bad to harp on, granted.)

 

Great trade with the Dodgers, but then Ben C. turned around and signed Hanley, Sandoval, and Castillo--3 brutal contracts that will haunt Cherrington forever and will likely undermine his chances of becoming a GM again.

 

This is it. The Dodger trade freed up a lot of money again, but then most of the money was wasted again.

[cp176]

And one Talksox member.

 

oh boy - lol

[notin]

Great trade with the Dodgers, but then Ben C. turned around and signed Hanley, Sandoval, and Castillo--3 brutal contracts that will haunt Cherrington forever and will likely undermine his chances of becoming a GM again.

 

Theo Epstein signed all the much bigger and equally awful contracts that Cherington unloaded and he somehow found another job. Most GMs hake bad moves. I don't think it is the career killer many think it is...

[oldtimer]

This is it. The Dodger trade freed up a lot of money again, but then most of the money was wasted again.

 

DD has done pretty well except for the Price aquisition and the Pedey long term extension. The Thornurg and Smith acquisitions have not panned out but that was more bad luck and bad medical advice than DD's failings.

 

One more year to be rid of Panda's contract and Hanley is gone for next year. Castillo could play in the majors except for the luxury tax rules that esentially prevent it. These are reminders of the Cherrington period.

[mvp 78]

DD has done pretty well except for the Price aquisition and the Pedey long term extension. The Thornurg and Smith acquisitions have not panned out but that was more bad luck and bad medical advice than DD's failings.

 

One more year to be rid of Panda's contract and Hanley is gone for next year. Castillo could play in the majors except for the luxury tax rules that esentially prevent it. These are reminders of the Cherrington period.

 

The Pedroia extension was under Ben.

[notin]

DD has done pretty well except for the Price aquisition and the Pedey long term extension. The Thornurg and Smith acquisitions have not panned out but that was more bad luck and bad medical advice than DD's failings.

 

One more year to be rid of Panda's contract and Hanley is gone for next year. Castillo could play in the majors except for the luxury tax rules that esentially prevent it. These are reminders of the Cherrington period.

 

While it might be true, we really don't know if it was bad medical advice or bad luck...

Edited July 12, 2018 by notin

[Bellhorn04]

Theo Epstein signed all the much bigger and equally awful contracts that Cherington unloaded and he somehow found another job. Most GMs hake bad moves. I don't think it is the career killer many think it is...

 

Absolutely, and Theo has likely made some bad moves with the Cubs as well.

 

You just need the bad to be clearly outweighed by the good...

[Slasher9]

IMO the Pom trade is still up for debate whether it was a good trade.

To me it was a bad trade from day 1 (when DD traded for an injured player who was basically a RP just turned SP that only had 2 pitches and had early success first time through the league with those 2 pitches)....

When given the chance a few weeks after the trade DD should have fought to cancel that trade and swap back....

[Maxbialystock]

Completely agree with the brilliance of the Dodgers dump. Well done, Cherington. This led directly to the 2013 WS, the 3d (and most recent) in the John Henry era. HanRam and Sandoval were terrible acquisitions. Not hanging onto Lester especially, but also Lackey wasn't smart in 2014. I agree with those who say Cherington wasn't a disaster.

 

DD has probably done better. I defended the heck out of Farrell, but even I can see Cora is better. JDM and Sale great acquisitions. Releasing both Pablo and Hanley--good despite the expense. And so on. Price not so smart, but there were many defenders of that move when it happened. Getting and keeping Moreland--good. Bringing Beni and Devers up quickly--good.

[kenmeister]

Did I happen to mention how happy I am we have...

 

Chris Freakin' Sale!

 

He's the only pitcher in MLB to ever have 5 straight games with 11+ Ks and just 1 BB in all 5 starts.

 

Boy is he awesome right now! Fingers crossed he keeps it up through the end of the season.

[Dojji]

Theo Epstein signed all the much bigger and equally awful contracts that Cherington unloaded and he somehow found another job. Most GMs hake bad moves. I don't think it is the career killer many think it is...

 

Epstein was never going to be on the job market for very long. Everyone knew he was good at his job, and he usually had the Red Sox at the forefront of their division even in the years they didn't win anything, with fluky exceptions in 2006 and 2011.

 

Cherington was completely unproven before coming to Boston, bracketed a World Series win that clearly had a ton of luck behind it with 3 last place finishes despite huge budgets, and didn't really demonstrate any knowledge or concrete plan of how he might rectify the situation. I honestly think that if anything, and I do mean ANYTHING, Cherington was doing to try to help the pitching staff was working at all, he'd still be here. His plan was showing great progress on the offensive side of the ball, but the combination of failing to develop SP prospects and refusing to meet the market to import them, was simply unacceptable, and doesn't reflect well on Cherington as a top baseball executive. Even if your plans fail, as a GM, you have to know what to do to try to right the ship. When Cherington failed to develop a top starter in 4 years of trying, he was unable to think of anything else to do to solve the problem.

 

(if he'd even spent the money he blew on Pablo and Hanley, on a SP, he'd probably also still be here. Ownership understand trying and failing to patch key areas of the team. They don't have much understanding for failing to try)

[kenmeister]

Epstein was never going to be on the job market for very long. Everyone knew he was good at his job, and he usually had the Red Sox at the forefront of their division even in the years they didn't win anything, with fluky exceptions in 2006 and 2011.

 

Cherington was completely unproven before coming to Boston, bracketed a World Series win that clearly had a ton of luck behind it with 3 last place finishes despite huge budgets, and didn't really demonstrate any knowledge or concrete plan of how he might rectify the situation. I honestly think that if anything, and I do mean ANYTHING, Cherington was doing to try to help the pitching staff was working at all, he'd still be here. His plan was showing great progress on the offensive side of the ball, but the combination of failing to develop SP prospects and refusing to meet the market to import them, was simply unacceptable, and doesn't reflect well on Cherington as a top baseball executive. Even if your plans fail, as a GM, you have to know what to do to try to right the ship. When Cherington failed to develop a top starter in 4 years of trying, he was unable to think of anything else to do to solve the problem.

 

(if he'd even spent the money he blew on Pablo and Hanley, on a SP, he'd probably also still be here. Ownership understand trying and failing to patch key areas of the team. They don't have much understanding for failing to try)

 

Ben didn't resign Lester and didn't go after Scherzer who was not generating as much interest as he should have. We should have gotten both of them. And Nelson Cruz. That was a tough offseason for me. But we got Sandoval and Ramirez instead. Ugh.

[OH FOY]

OK everybody makes mistakes, but the length of those contracts are hurting in the present and future. That's why never give may years in a Contract. Player could be great in the present, but never pays for itself last few years, and handcuffs a team, when they do really need to make moves.

I want the best years and I want him out. 7-10 year contracts are killers. Unless kid is Trout's age.

[notin]

Ben didn't resign Lester and didn't go after Scherzer who was not generating as much interest as he should have. We should have gotten both of them. And Nelson Cruz. That was a tough offseason for me. But we got Sandoval and Ramirez instead. Ugh.

 

Nelson Cruz was coming off steroid issues. I’m neither surprised nor disappointed the Sox avoided him...

[cp176]

IMO the Pom trade is still up for debate whether it was a good trade.

To me it was a bad trade from day 1 (when DD traded for an injured player who was basically a RP just turned SP that only had 2 pitches and had early success first time through the league with those 2 pitches)....

When given the chance a few weeks after the trade DD should have fought to cancel that trade and swap back....

 

You know how I feel about this one I bet Slasher. The jury is still out as to whether it will look good in the long term but no matter how much more we all want out of Pomeranz, he has helped us. If Espinoza ever gets to the bigs and pitches like all of the scouts promised he would, you can "I told you so" me to death. I will take my punishment! lol

 

he better get there within the next 2 or 3 years though because by that time I might not remember what happened so long ago.

[OH FOY]

I'm with you on that too, Fans got to disregard all GCL and DSL hoopla. It starts in Single A. I get it was 18, and throwing hard, and had good stuff against lesser competition. Full season in the Minors best way to evaluate.

Best way to evaluate GCL and DSL Prospects is if they stay in those leagues for 1 year, and move quickly to Single A.

Espinoza did, and struggled in Single A Ball. Maybe injury, I don't know.

 

Urias of the Dodgers had no problem, moving quickly through their system, almost exact same situation. Every level he dominated, and he might be younger.

I will say TJS hurt him, Padres waited to long to have it. He had it last August, think he was injured last May. Basically done for this year.

Urias is older.

Edited July 12, 2018 by OH FOY!

[Slasher9]

You know how I feel about this one I bet Slasher. The jury is still out as to whether it will look good in the long term but no matter how much more we all want out of Pomeranz, he has helped us. If Espinoza ever gets to the bigs and pitches like all of the scouts promised he would, you can "I told you so" me to death. I will take my punishment! lol

 

he better get there within the next 2 or 3 years though because by that time I might not remember what happened so long ago.

 

My thoughts on the matter isn’t necessarily what espy would be doing for us now or in the future...but could he have been used in the sale trade instead of Moncada. Or if not...who else could he have been used to acquire?

I just think it was a terrible idea to use one of our best trade chips on an injured pitcher that only had 2 pitches and minimal exposure as a Starter.......

[reYoukilis]

Completely agree with the brilliance of the Dodgers dump. Well done, Cherington. This led directly to the 2013 WS, the 3d (and most recent) in the John Henry era. HanRam and Sandoval were terrible acquisitions. Not hanging onto Lester especially, but also Lackey wasn't smart in 2014. I agree with those who say Cherington wasn't a disaster.

 

DD has probably done better. I defended the heck out of Farrell, but even I can see Cora is better. JDM and Sale great acquisitions. Releasing both Pablo and Hanley--good despite the expense. And so on. Price not so smart, but there were many defenders of that move when it happened. Getting and keeping Moreland--good. Bringing Beni and Devers up quickly--good.

I agree with this. Any success the Red Sox have will be a co-credit between DD and Cherington.

[cp176]

My thoughts on the matter isn’t necessarily what espy would be doing for us now or in the future...but could he have been used in the sale trade instead of Moncada. Or if not...who else could he have been used to acquire?

I just think it was a terrible idea to use one of our best trade chips on an injured pitcher that only had 2 pitches and minimal exposure as a Starter.......

 

I understand and I pretty much thought that you would feel like you do. I just don't look at things that way. In my mind, DD saw an opportunity to take a shot at a young potentially very talented arm and he went for it. If I looked back at any number of trades that we have made over the decades and re-evaluted them based on information we have now, or what the current situation we are in is now, I would likely not like any of our GM's that have come and gone in my lifetime. It would for sure drive me crazier than I already am. I've never been a what if kind of guy. I just tend to make a decision and then try work things out as well as I can. Lots of choices never have worked well for me. OCD type of thing. I understand that lots of mistakes can get made this way but that is the way I see many of the trades DD has made. I do respect your opinion on this one though.

[Spudboy]

Did I happen to mention how happy I am we have...

 

Chris Freakin' Sale!

 

He's the only pitcher in MLB to ever have 5 straight games with 11+ Ks and just 1 BB in all 5 starts.

 

He sure is fun to watch.

 

Imagine getting into the box to face him.

[Spudboy]

You know how I feel about this one I bet Slasher. The jury is still out as to whether it will look good in the long term but no matter how much more we all want out of Pomeranz, he has helped us. If Espinoza ever gets to the bigs and pitches like all of the scouts promised he would, you can "I told you so" me to death. I will take my punishment! lol

 

he better get there within the next 2 or 3 years though because by that time I might not remember what happened so long ago.

 

 

Hahahahahaha!11

[Fan_since_Boggs]

Theo Epstein signed all the much bigger and equally awful contracts that Cherington unloaded and he somehow found another job. Most GMs hake bad moves. I don't think it is the career killer many think it is...

 

That's true. Theo signed C.Crawford & J.Heyward. The Dice-K thing (100 million) didn't work out either. Overall, though, Theo has a much better & stronger reputation in baseball circles than Cherrington. Thus, Theo could overcome the mistakes. In contrast, I doubt Cherrington is ever offered a GM position again.

 

Moreover, winning a championship with the Cubs helped solidify Theo's reputation and legacy. Cherrington has the 2013 championship, but that achievement isn't as great as Theo's three championships. The timing matters too. Theo won two championships with an organization that had not won one in 86 years. With the Cubs, the wait was over 100 years. Cherrington's championship came after the 2004 & 2007 championships. The suspicion is that Theo helped create the blueprint for the 2013 championship and that Cherrington rode Theo's coattails that year.

Edited July 12, 2018 by Fan_since_Boggs

[kenmeister]

Nelson Cruz was coming off steroid issues. I’m neither surprised nor disappointed the Sox avoided him...

 

Am I a bad person to admit the steroid issues didn't bother me?

 

Nelson Cruz homers since 2014:

2015: 44

2016: 43

2017: 39

2018 (so far): 22

 

What a great pickup he would have been.

 

But can we at least agree that not even trying to sign Scherzer was a huge mistake?

[Bellhorn04]

But can we at least agree that not even trying to sign Scherzer was a huge mistake?

 

I think we can agree on that.

[mvp 78]

Am I a bad person to admit the steroid issues didn't bother me?

 

Nelson Cruz homers since 2014:

2015: 44

2016: 43

2017: 39

2018 (so far): 22

 

What a great pickup he would have been.

 

But can we at least agree that not even trying to sign Scherzer was a huge mistake?

 

I agree on both counts.

[harmony]

Am I a bad person to admit the steroid issues didn't bother me?

 

Nelson Cruz homers since 2014:

2015: 44

2016: 43

2017: 39

2018 (so far): 22

 

What a great pickup he would have been.

 

But can we at least agree that not even trying to sign Scherzer was a huge mistake?

I was only somewhat bothered by the Biogenesis scandal but this Seattle fan was adamantly opposed to the Mariners' rumored interest in Nelson Cruz following his 2013 season with the Rangers. I mistakenly thought Safeco Field would kill his right-handed power bat.

 

After Cruz posted impressive numbers with the Orioles in 2014, I warmed up to the idea of the Mariners acquiring Cruz, who signed with Seattle in December 2014.

 

Beyond his abundant offensive output with the Mariners (OPS+ 151 and 148 HR in 540 games), Cruz has provided needed leadership in the Seattle clubhouse.

 

https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/mariners/nelson-cruz-gathers-mariners-teammates-for-workouts-in-miami/