Sox starting pitching thread

[Dojji]

https://www.sbnation.com/2016/7/23/12264116/chris-sale-sent-home-for-cutting-up-white-sox-throwback-jerseys

 

Happy 2nd anniversary to Chris Sale tearing the s*** out of those throwback jerseys and getting himself traded to the Good Sox.

 

I'll take a pitcher who's passionate about his job over a workaday clock puncher, even if he pulls a Manny from time to time

 

(Sale was clearly frustrated with the team's loser attitude and ownership's prioritization of cashing in over winning, which is why the jerseys died the death)

[mvp 78]

I'll take a pitcher who's passionate about his job over a workaday clock puncher, even if he pulls a Manny from time to time

 

(Sale was clearly frustrated with the team's loser attitude and ownership's prioritization of cashing in over winning, which is why the jerseys died the death)

 

Those jerseys deserved to die. Sale was definitely in the right there.

[notin]

I'll take a pitcher who's passionate about his job over a workaday clock puncher, even if he pulls a Manny from time to time

 

(Sale was clearly frustrated with the team's loser attitude and ownership's prioritization of cashing in over winning, which is why the jerseys died the death)

 

It looked to me like Sale started to get angry with management over the whole Adam LaRoche incident, where he was a very outspoken critic of the front office. The jerseys thing looked like nail number two...

Edited July 23, 2018 by notin

[Kimmi]

I do. Even if you discount the home run factor, which can exaggerate Shaw's value I agree, he's a solid producer of offense at a position where we've needed one for awhile. Even with his inconsistency, which was on full display in his first and only full season in Boston, and has dragged him backward a bit in Milwaukee this year he's been putting up positive numbers on both sides of the ball and is a solid contributing piece to a baseball team.

 

As much as he isn't a superstar level player, if you put Travis Shaw at 3B, you don't have a hole at 3B. We've had a hole at 3B for awhile now, so I winced when he was traded, especially because it looked to me like he was traded mostly to give the Pablob one last chance to earn his contract, which is such a shining example of the sunk cost fallacy that it should need no further explanation from me as to why that was a bad idea.

 

I'm optimistic that Devers will grow into the role of Boston's everyday 3B given time, health and experience at the major league level, but he's not there yet, and until he is, we technically still have a hole at 3B. There's always going to be a regret factor with me around the Thornburg trade un til Devers comes into his own, which will probably take another year or 2.

 

Shaw was absolutely horrible the second half (longer, actually) of his last season with us. I was not sad to see him go. That said, it appears the Sox gave up on him too early, which does make the trade sting. I still hold out hope for Thornburg though.

[Kimmi]

Those jerseys deserved to die. Sale was definitely in the right there.

 

No, Sale was not in the right there. Come on.

[dgalehouse]

As a general rule in business , when an employee willfully destroys property of the employer , the employee is not considered to be in the right. Sale is a great pitcher. I am happy we have him. But that was a childish thing to do.

[Kimmi]

As a general rule in business , when an employee willfully destroys property of the employer , the employee is not considered to be in the right. Sale is a great pitcher. I am happy we have him. But that was a childish thing to do.

 

Well said.

[dgalehouse]

All eyes will be on Pomeranz tonight.

[Kimmi]

All eyes will be on Pomeranz tonight.

 

If he can go at least 5 innings and keep the team in the game, I will deem this start a success.

 

I think he can do better, but being his first start back, I really don't have high expectations.

[kenmeister]

I was hoping they'd put Velazquez back in the rotation.

[moonslav59]

If he can go at least 5 innings and keep the team in the game, I will deem this start a success.

 

I think he can do better, but being his first start back, I really don't have high expectations.

 

I'm just hoping he does well enough to give us confidence that he can start again in 5 days. We need him to take ERod's place and allow our other starters to not get over-taxed, not to mention our pen.

[OH FOY]

Team hitting .228 for the season, he has problems tonight, then what? 29th out of 30 teams in Runs scored. Last week Triple AAA, this week AAAA team....maybe.

I wouldn't even go by this game if he pitches OK. If he pitches bad, that would tell me more.

Edited July 24, 2018 by OH FOY!

[Dojji]

Shaw was absolutely horrible the second half (longer, actually) of his last season with us. I was not sad to see him go. That said, it appears the Sox gave up on him too early, which does make the trade sting. I still hold out hope for Thornburg though.

 

Shaw had a pretty nasty sophomore slump in the season following his rookie campaign. But he was still better than the guy he beat for the 3B job that year, and trading him to try to shoehorn Pablo Sandoval back into the everyday lineup was patently ridiculous -- made even worse by the fact that it exposed a very young Rafael Devers and forced him into the starting lineup a year or so early.

 

we were lucky that Devers managed to get hot in the second half last year and justify his spot in the roster. That did not have to happen. We all remember Will Middlebrooks.

 

Risking exposing a problem position by trading away a guy who was adequate there when taking the year as a whole in favor of the the Incrudible Bulk, now with new belt busting action, with only a guy in AA as depth behind him, was probably stupid no matter how Thornburg pitched.

[Kimmi]

I was hoping they'd put Velazquez back in the rotation.

 

He remains an option, if needed. I'm sure he will be the guy to piggy back with Pom tonight if Pom does not make it through 5.

[Kimmi]

Team hitting .228 for the season, he has problems tonight, then what? 29th out of 30 teams in Runs scored. Last week Triple AAA, this week AAAA team....maybe.

I wouldn't even go by this game if he pitches OK. If he pitches bad, that would tell me more.

 

Either way, you can't really make any judgments off of one start.

 

Confidence wise, Pom could really use a good start.

 

I still think Cora needs to have an argument in the dugout with Pom to get Pom on the right track.

[oldtimer]

I'm just hoping he does well enough to give us confidence that he can start again in 5 days. We need him to take ERod's place and allow our other starters to not get over-taxed, not to mention our pen.

 

I am not sure about the timing of E-Rods return. Depending of the severity of the sprain and ligament damage he could be gone quite a while with rehab after the ankle is okay. In the case of college basketball, I have seen a high ankle sprain with the player going into a book last for months before returning. Be interesting to know whether they think he has any chance of returning this year.

[Kimmi]

Shaw had a pretty nasty sophomore slump in the season following his rookie campaign. But he was still better than the guy he beat for the 3B job that year, and trading him to try to shoehorn Pablo Sandoval back into the everyday lineup was patently ridiculous -- made even worse by the fact that it exposed a very young Rafael Devers and forced him into the starting lineup a year or so early.

 

we were lucky that Devers managed to get hot in the second half last year and justify his spot in the roster. That did not have to happen. We all remember Will Middlebrooks.

 

Risking exposing a problem position by trading away a guy who was adequate there when taking the year as a whole in favor of the the Incrudible Bulk, now with new belt busting action, with only a guy in AA as depth behind him, was probably stupid no matter how Thornburg pitched.

 

I disagree that trying to get Pablo back into the everyday lineup was patently ridiculous. As I said, I was okay with the trade when it happened. Of course, it looks terrible in hindsight, making it difficult to defend, but I had no problem with dealing Shaw.

 

The fault, IMO, lies with not having a viable back up plan should Pablo fail. In fairness, if I recall correctly, Marco was part of the plan but was out most of the season with injury.

[OH FOY]

Either way, you can't really make any judgments off of one start.

 

Confidence wise, Pom could really use a good start.

 

I still think Cora needs to have an argument in the dugout with Pom to get Pom on the right track.

 

 

I included his bad starts at Pawtucket. Including his last one, against a weak hitting team in the International League.

http://www.milb.com/player/index.jsp?sid=t533&player_id=519141#/career/R/pitching/2018/ALL

[Kimmi]

I included his bad starts at Pawtucket. Including his last one, against a weak hitting team in the International League.

http://www.milb.com/player/index.jsp?sid=t533&player_id=519141#/career/R/pitching/2018/ALL

 

Fair enough.

 

Let's hope Pom gets it together. Unfortunately, it's not looking good for the game tonight weather wise.

[OH FOY]

All I'm saying is the Competition you face, as a better way to evaluate how a Pitcher is progressing. For me I think He should dominate tonight against a weak Opponent. If he doesn't that tells me he needs more work. Or I'm not going to rely on more, going forward.

In a way the Negative, is more telling than the Positive.

[FredLynn]

I am not sure about the timing of E-Rods return. Depending of the severity of the sprain and ligament damage he could be gone quite a while with rehab after the ankle is okay. In the case of college basketball, I have seen a high ankle sprain with the player going into a book last for months before returning. Be interesting to know whether they think he has any chance of returning this year.

 

Here is what Cora said about his possible return: "We aren't ruling out his return this year"

Ominous.

[Dojji]

I disagree that trying to get Pablo back into the everyday lineup was patently ridiculous. As I said, I was okay with the trade when it happened. Of course, it looks terrible in hindsight, making it difficult to defend, but I had no problem with dealing Shaw.

 

The fault, IMO, lies with not having a viable back up plan should Pablo fail. In fairness, if I recall correctly, Marco was part of the plan but was out most of the season with injury.

 

Normally I might agree with you about giving Pablo another chance, but after the performance he gave in 2016, in which he clearly gave zero damns about his health, played for a whole 2 weeks, blew out his belt and injured himself making a routine play and was then completely gone... I think at some point you just have to conclude that that guy can not be counted on to take a starting role on your team until he re-earns your trust.

 

Certainly he should not have been the starting 3B in the offseason plans considering what a trainwreck he made of himself in 2016, requiring a pretty surprising showing from Shaw to give us anything approacing respectable production from third base. When your starter screws up so badly that it takes a guy who was in your plans as a backup first basemen having a surprise year as a starting 3B to cover for him, you have to adjust your thinking to account for that.

 

If the fault lies with not having a viable backup, then the fault lies in trading Shaw, who the very worst you can say about the 2016 version was that he looked promising in a backup role.

[Spudboy]

Shaw had a pretty nasty sophomore slump in the season following his rookie campaign. But he was still better than the guy he beat for the 3B job that year, and trading him to try to shoehorn Pablo Sandoval back into the everyday lineup was patently ridiculous -- made even worse by the fact that it exposed a very young Rafael Devers and forced him into the starting lineup a year or so early.

 

we were lucky that Devers managed to get hot in the second half last year and justify his spot in the roster. That did not have to happen. We all remember Will Middlebrooks.

 

Risking exposing a problem position by trading away a guy who was adequate there when taking the year as a whole in favor of the the Incrudible Bulk, now with new belt busting action, with only a guy in AA as depth behind him, was probably stupid no matter how Thornburg pitched.

 

This post is fact based.

 

Good stuff.

[moonslav59]

Team hitting .228 for the season, he has problems tonight, then what? 29th out of 30 teams in Runs scored. Last week Triple AAA, this week AAAA team....maybe.

I wouldn't even go by this game if he pitches OK. If he pitches bad, that would tell me more.

 

It will be his first game back after being out for a while, so one bad game against a bad hitting team may not be all that telling.

[Slasher9]

Shaw was never going to be successful in the bright lights of Boston. He is a small market guy. Good on him.

[Spudboy]

Shaw was never going to be successful in the bright lights of Boston. He is a small market guy. Good on him.

 

I am curious as to why you think that of Shaw?

 

From all counts I have read or heard, he loved it here. He came up with JBJ, Mookie, Swihart, and Marerro. They were big time buddies. They were pumped to be playing together here.

[Bellhorn04]

I think DD felt Shaw was not this good of a hitter based on his minor league numbers. Shaw has been breaking a paradigm of sorts.

[jacksonianmarch]

Shaw was a late bloomer and those prospects rarely end up being more than replacement level. DD didn’t think he’d end up a legit middle of the order hitter and dealt him when he thought his value was highest. He was wrong

[Dojji]

Shaw was never going to be successful in the bright lights of Boston. He is a small market guy. Good on him.

 

There is absolutely nothing to suggest that he would not be just as resurgent in Boston as he is in Milwaukee. Except that he just might have better lineup protection in Boston.

 

He had a slump. Slumps happen. I dont remember too many people utterly giving up on Bogaerts even though he had a very similar slump that year, and without the decent defense to cover himself

[Fan_since_Boggs]

They can't give Pomeranz another start, right? I realize you shouldn't overreact to one start, but this has been going on all year with Pomeranz. His stuff just isn't good enough. He has no fastball, relies solely on the curve, and the curve is going to fail him from time to time and get hit a long way. The Orioles don't exactly have a dominant lineup, and Pomeranz couldn't complete 5 innings against them.

 

You have to move him to the bullpen to see if he can develop into a one inning reliever. They need to find another starter on the trade market -- Pomeranz has been a failure for the entire season, the sample size is large enough now and the stuff isn't there.