A Realistic View at 2018: Part I

[jad]

True, but what Pedroia did last year didn't pit the players against the manager. He pitted himself against the entire team and the manager, and he himself had to smooth over the issue. What he did in 2012, caused a divide between the players and the manager that required third party intervention and leadership.

 

I agree entirely about the Youk situation. What BV said wasn't extreme to begin with, but PD made the situation unfixable. As for the "It's not me, it's them" situation. I'm not sure. Both at the time (and every time I watched that since), I've always read what he said as meaning: "Don't single me out! It's the whole damn team" (not throwing teammates under the bus, but an expression of solidarity). PD has never said exactly what he meant, right? And perhaps there was a little of both meanings there. (Those who get real vocal during a sports contest likely do not have a clear and distinct idea of what they mean, and they're not the greatest of intellects to begin with.)

[cp176]

I don't necessarily disagree, but if we're holding Dombrowski to the same standard, he didn't do anything last year about the Pedroia insubordination either.

 

I would like to think and I do that incidents like have been mentioned are the types of incidents that a manager has to deal with. If the GM has to step in to solve these types of problems, they hired the wrong guy to mange the team. As happened with both Valentine and Farrell not being able to handle these types of situations ultimately cost them both their jobs.

If I were Cora, even though he has been referred to here as a player's coach, I hope that he is damned careful with the players he has to deal with. Pedroia is a good tough little player when healthy, but I would be very careful with how I handled him after what we saw last year.

[moonslav59]

I would like to think and I do that incidents like have been mentioned are the types of incidents that a manager has to deal with. If the GM has to step in to solve these types of problems, they hired the wrong guy to mange the team. As happened with both Valentine and Farrell not being able to handle these types of situations ultimately cost them both their jobs.

If I were Cora, even though he has been referred to here as a player's coach, I hope that he is damned careful with the players he has to deal with. Pedroia is a good tough little player when healthy, but I would be very careful with how I handled him after what we saw last year.

 

Well said.

[oldtimer]

This is a thread about talking about 2018 and yet we have gone on and on and on about what happen for the last several years. I would like to return to 2018 and there was a short article (Brown's Blog) about the 25 man roster for starting the season. Brown seems to think the starting team will include Devers, Bogey, Nunez and Rameriz around the infield. Subbing would be Moreland at 1st and there will be a question mark until Pedroia comes back of whether Holt, Marrero or Lin will make the team. The article says Cora really likes Lin's flexibility at 2nd, short and 3rd as well as outfield. Cora also like Swihart and can see him playing the corners and outfield as well as a third catcher. The outfield is set with Beni, JBJ and Betts and with Martinez subbing for JBJ and Beni on occasion. I think many of us would like to keep Hanleys PAs down so the flexibility of players would allow for that as Martinez is thought of as the primary DH. Behind the plate it appears that Leon and Vaz will be there and the pitching staff will like that.

 

So it appears that we have set in stone:

 

Hanley

Nunez

Bogey

Devers

Beni

JBJ

Betts

Matinez

Vaz

Leon

 

And:

Swihart (unless traded for prospects or pitching)

 

and one of not considering options:

Holt

Marrero

Lin (Cora likes him)

 

It appears Cora like flexibility so all of the potential utility players have that whereas Travis will stay in the minors and when Pedey returns one other player will become surplus. Two weeks to find that out.

[moonslav59]

MLBTR...

 

Veteran starter Alex Cobb, he says, was in position to secure a four-year, $48MM offer at one point earlier in the winter (from an unknown team) and “easily” could have landed a three-year guarantee. We’re obviously still waiting to see just what Cobb will ultimately earn, but needless to say, it seems unlikely he’ll reach the levels he might have had previously. In the meantime, several lesser pitchers have gone on to sign fairly solid, multi-year deals, perhaps absorbing some of the demand that might have led to a better payout for Cobb

[moonslav59]

This is a thread about talking about 2018 and yet we have gone on and on and on about what happen for the last several years. I would like to return to 2018 and there was a short article (Brown's Blog) about the 25 man roster for starting the season. Brown seems to think the starting team will include Devers, Bogey, Nunez and Rameriz around the infield. Subbing would be Moreland at 1st and there will be a question mark until Pedroia comes back of whether Holt, Marrero or Lin will make the team. The article says Cora really likes Lin's flexibility at 2nd, short and 3rd as well as outfield. Cora also like Swihart and can see him playing the corners and outfield as well as a third catcher. The outfield is set with Beni, JBJ and Betts and with Martinez subbing for JBJ and Beni on occasion. I think many of us would like to keep Hanleys PAs down so the flexibility of players would allow for that as Martinez is thought of as the primary DH. Behind the plate it appears that Leon and Vaz will be there and the pitching staff will like that.

 

So it appears that we have set in stone:

 

Hanley

Nunez

Bogey

Devers

Beni

JBJ

Betts

Matinez

Vaz

Leon

 

And:

Swihart (unless traded for prospects or pitching)

 

and one of not considering options:

Holt

Marrero

Lin (Cora likes him)

 

It appears Cora like flexibility so all of the potential utility players have that whereas Travis will stay in the minors and when Pedey returns one other player will become surplus. Two weeks to find that out.

 

Since Nunez, JD and Swihart can play OF, I don't see Lin's ability to play OF as a deciding factor.

 

Marrero is out of options, so if Cora and DD like him, he seems like the obvious choice to keep system depth all in place. An argument can be made that finding no-hit-good glove infielders like Marrero is easy to do, so maybe we DFA Marrero. (He may be DFA'd and not claimed and end up staying with us in AAA.)

 

I can see choosing Linover Holt, since he's a better defender, and that's what our IF lacks.

 

Marrero or Lin could be used as late inning defensive replacements for Nunez and Devers. A case could be made to trade Swihart and keep Lin and Marrero on the 25man roster until Pedey returns.

 

[cp176]

I think that trying to use Lin in any outfield position is a mistake. We have no clue as to what his upside might be. I certainly do not think that he is ready to be on the 25 man roster at this time. The guy is an infielder - second base/shortsop. Too much of this dinking around with kids that really could be ml someday is foolish.

[Kimmi]

So Ben had a different philosophy from Theo, since Theo signed Lester?

 

Let's face it, Kimmi, we don't really know what Ben's philosophy was or is. It's all speculation.

 

Theo was at the point where he was all in. His team was ready.

 

The Sox were not there yet.

 

Of course it's all speculation. But you'll have a hard time convincing me otherwise.

[Kimmi]

I give Ben a free pass for 2012 as well. I don't fault him that much for 2014 either. It was 2015 when I really questioned his acumen, especially with the pitching staff he rolled out there.

 

Fair enough. In 2015, the Sox were still projected to be contenders for the division, but not as widely as they were in 2014.

 

But in 2015, we had some widespread offensive underperformances.

[Kimmi]

MLBTR...

 

Veteran starter Alex Cobb, he says, was in position to secure a four-year, $48MM offer at one point earlier in the winter (from an unknown team) and “easily” could have landed a three-year guarantee. We’re obviously still waiting to see just what Cobb will ultimately earn, but needless to say, it seems unlikely he’ll reach the levels he might have had previously. In the meantime, several lesser pitchers have gone on to sign fairly solid, multi-year deals, perhaps absorbing some of the demand that might have led to a better payout for Cobb

 

You know a lot of the players are kicking themselves for not accepting some pretty strong deals earlier in the offseason.

 

I am still in shock over what Moustakas signed for.

[moonslav59]

You know a lot of the players are kicking themselves for not accepting some pretty strong deals earlier in the offseason.

 

I am still in shock over what Moustakas signed for.

 

Cobb might be a shocker, too.

[cp176]

Well said.

 

thanks

[moonslav59]

Here's how I see our roster shaping up:

 

DL: ERod (60 Day?), Pedey (60 Day?), Wright, Pomeranz, Hernandez, Thordnburg

 

5 SP: Sale, Price, Porcello, Johnson, Velazquez*

7 RP: Kimbrel, Smith, Kelly, Barnes, Hembree, Workman, Scott

(* We could start Velazquez in AAA and call him up for game 5, which would allow Marrero or Holt to start on the big club for 4 games.)

 

3 C: Vaz, Leon, Swihart (LF/1B/3B)

2 1B: HRam & Moreland

1-2 2B: Nunez & Holt* (3B/SS/OF/1B)

1-2 3B: Devers & Marrero* (2B/SS)

1 SS: Bogey

1 LF: Beni

1 CF: JBJ

1 RF: Betts

1 DH/OF: JDM

 

AAA with ML potential in 2018

SP: Beeks, Haley, Shepherd

RP: Maddox, Buttrey, Layne, Poyner, martin

C: Butler

1B: Travis (Ockimey AA)

2B: Holt/Marrero & Quiroz

3B: de Jesus

SS: Lin

LF: Castillo

CF: Taverez

RF: Barfield

DH: Chavis (AA) & Witte

 

Here's the line-up I think Cora will start with:

 

1. Beni LF

2. Betts RF

3. HRam 1B

4. JDM DH

5. Devers 3B

6. Nunez 2B

7. Bogey SS

8. JBJ CF

9. Vaz C

 

 

[Bellhorn04]

Theo was at the point where he was all in. His team was ready.

 

The Sox were not there yet.

 

Of course it's all speculation. But you'll have a hard time convincing me otherwise.

 

Ben was a quiet fellow. I think you'll be challenged to find very many meaty quotes from him about team-building.

 

I think you're probably right, that he liked the long-term approach.

 

I suspect he's more comfortable where he is now, in a more behind-the-scenes role.

[moonslav59]

Ben was a quiet fellow. I think you'll be challenged to find very many meaty quotes from him about team-building.

 

I think you're probably right, that he liked the long-term approach.

 

I suspect he's more comfortable where he is now, in a more behind-the-scenes role.

 

Here's somethings I found:

 

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/red_sox_mlb/boston_red_sox/2015/08/lauber_ben_cherington_hurt_by_own_unselfish_approach

 

https://nesn.com/2011/10/ben-cherington-to-take-multi-factorial-approach-to-rebuilding-culture-of-red-sox-video/ (See all 4 parts)\

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexreimer/2016/09/20/red-sox-success-traces-back-to-ousted-general-manager-ben-cherington/#6453bf173b92

 

http://www.espn.com/mlb/playoffs/2013/story/_/id/9807343/how-gm-ben-cherington-rebuilt-boston-red-sox

 

Epstein, who endorsed Cherington as his successor upon leaving Boston to run the Chicago Cubs two years ago, remains a Cherington fan.

 

"He has tremendous insights about the game and about people and applies them in myriad ways to make the organization and those around him better," Epstein said in an email. "He is a steady, dependable and understated person who is systematic in his work and his communication but ultimately empowers those around him. Ben was instrumental in building the foundation for the Red Sox's success through his work in player development and obviously has been outstanding in shaping this year's team out of the adversity the organization faced in 2012."

 

http://www.masslive.com/redsox/index.ssf/2012/03/ben_cherington_says_red_sox_wi.html

[a700hitter]

Here's somethings I found:

 

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/red_sox_mlb/boston_red_sox/2015/08/lauber_ben_cherington_hurt_by_own_unselfish_approach

 

https://nesn.com/2011/10/ben-cherington-to-take-multi-factorial-approach-to-rebuilding-culture-of-red-sox-video/ (See all 4 parts)\

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexreimer/2016/09/20/red-sox-success-traces-back-to-ousted-general-manager-ben-cherington/#6453bf173b92

 

http://www.espn.com/mlb/playoffs/2013/story/_/id/9807343/how-gm-ben-cherington-rebuilt-boston-red-sox

 

Epstein, who endorsed Cherington as his successor upon leaving Boston to run the Chicago Cubs two years ago, remains a Cherington fan.

 

"He has tremendous insights about the game and about people and applies them in myriad ways to make the organization and those around him better," Epstein said in an email. "He is a steady, dependable and understated person who is systematic in his work and his communication but ultimately empowers those around him. Ben was instrumental in building the foundation for the Red Sox's success through his work in player development and obviously has been outstanding in shaping this year's team out of the adversity the organization faced in 2012."

 

http://www.masslive.com/redsox/index.ssf/2012/03/ben_cherington_says_red_sox_wi.html

But he made sure to take other better people with him to help him in Chicago.

[moonslav59]

But he made sure to take other better people with him to help him in Chicago.

 

If there was a better Theo underling candidate for the Sox GM than Ben, I'm going to assume, he'd have been offered the job over Ben.

[a700hitter]

If there was a better Theo underling candidate for the Sox GM than Ben, I'm going to assume, he'd have been offered the job over Ben.

Or maybe Theo made the recommendation. We don't know. Human nature is such that if Theo made the recommendation that he took the better people.

[moonslav59]

Or maybe Theo made the recommendation. We don't know. Human nature is such that if Theo made the recommendation that he took the better people.

 

Maybe. Maybe not.

 

I'm pretty sure that if someone better was offered the job, they'd have said yes rather than continue as an underling.

 

I guess we'll never know.

[Nick]

Chris Sale being himself today. I guess he is taking it easy. He only struck out 7 in 5 innings. He gave up 2 hits. No walks. Opening day starter for sure.

 

Anxious to see Price pitch vs someone other than Sox hitters.

Edited March 14, 2018 by Nick

[cp176]

If there was a better Theo underling candidate for the Sox GM than Ben, I'm going to assume, he'd have been offered the job over Ben.

 

But Moon after carefully scrutinizing what Ben accomplished, what does that say about Theo and his recommendation? Maybe he didn't want to face us in the World Series anytime soon. lol-lol- just a little joke all of you Theo lovers. Got nothing better to do.

[moonslav59]

Chris Sale being himself today. I guess he is taking it easy. He only struck out 7 in 5 innings. He gave up 2 hits. No walks. Opening day starter for sure.

 

 

Trade him while his stock is high!

 

Trade 'em all!

 

Start over with Beni and Devers as the foundation, ....err, wait... plagerism alert!

[Kimmi]

Chris Sale being himself today. I guess he is taking it easy. He only struck out 7 in 5 innings. He gave up 2 hits. No walks. Opening day starter for sure.

 

Anxious to see Price pitch vs someone other than Sox hitters.

 

Sale and Price are set up to be the #1 and #2 starters.

 

Sale being the Opening Day starter was a no brainer. I wasn't sure where Price would fall after last season, but I'm not surprised that Cora has him slated to be the #2 guy.

[moonslav59]

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2018/03/offseason-in-review-boston-red-sox-10.html

[Nick]

Trade him while his stock is high!

 

Trade 'em all!

 

Start over with Beni and Devers as the foundation, ....err, wait... plagerism alert!

 

Moreland's contract will be the reason we lose this year. Had we only waited and knew what the market was.......And Holt sucks. I'll take anyone over Holt.

[moonslav59]

Moreland's contract will be the reason we lose this year. Had we only waited and knew what the market was.......And Holt sucks. I'll take anyone over Holt.

 

$4-5M left

+$6.5M Moreland

+2.0M Holt______

$13M for Lynn or Cobb

[Bellhorn04]

$4-5M left

+$6.5M Moreland

+2.0M Holt______

$13M for Lynn or Cobb

 

We get it, moon, we really do.

[jacksonianmarch]

Sale and Price are set up to be the #1 and #2 starters.

 

Sale being the Opening Day starter was a no brainer. I wasn't sure where Price would fall after last season, but I'm not surprised that Cora has him slated to be the #2 guy.

 

Price and Sale are pretty similar in terms of stuff. If I was Cora, I’d slide in a righty between the two so you don’t have similar looks. Also, if you’re facing the same oppponent, letting their RH complements to get two consecutive starts doesn’t help either. If I was Cora, I’d have Sale-Porcello-Price-Pom-whomever

 

Pom and Price are very different so stacking them isn’t a big deal.

[mvp 78]

$4-5M left

+$6.5M Moreland

+2.0M Holt______

$13M for Lynn or Cobb

 

Why would you ever fill up the payroll to the point where you couldn't make any moves midseason?

[moonslav59]

Why would you ever fill up the payroll to the point where you couldn't make any moves midseason?

 

The mid season move is going to be a starting pitcher. There are bargain basement deals to be had now.

 

This was one alternative option (maybe in hindsight).

 

I'm not even sure I'd be for the idea, but it certainly merits strong consideration.

 

My own personal "what if" concerns signing Moose or Duda instead of Moreland (and Holt). Then, we'd have a lot of money left for summer. My second consideration would be to have signed Morrsion, instead of Moreland & Holt. We'd be about even on the summer spending budget with that one.