Should DD be fired?

[Hugh2]

DD sold off the farm and built this team around winning the next 3-5 years from 2017 on. Now we can have impending cliff talks all day long but he at least gets to see how this team plays out. We've had two 1st place finishes and as far as I'm concerned he gets two more years before we even ask this question.....and this is coming from a guy who hasn't 100% agreed with his organizational philosophy.

[sk7326]

DD is doing what John Henry wants. If Henry did not want Dombrowski to cash in the farm, then it would not be happening.

[Hugh2]

DD is doing what John Henry wants. If Henry did not want Dombrowski to cash in the farm, then it would not be happening.

 

I agree, Ben C. probably had his support at some point when Henry wanted to build the farm up and help rebuild the teams future. He decided to cash in and figured DD was the guy who had the better track record with more experience in that department. DD (at least up until this point) has had the full support of Henry, otherwise he wouldn't be here.

[Kimmi]

Theo did admit, "We made mistakes with free agency", so I think he was on board with Offerman, Manny, Lugo, CC, Lackey and the AGon trade and extension.

 

Theo made his share of mistakes. I'm not sure he was on board with all of those signings, but what is he going to say?

[Kimmi]

I certainly agree about Theo, but I'm not sure there's enough evidence to say exactly how Ben operates. If Larry was making so many moves, then Ben was kind of a puppet. And it's important to note that Ben has not had any other experience as a GM to evaluate him on.

 

Ben should have been given a chance to see his 5 year plan come to fruition. Perhaps Ben was a puppet when it came to the 'splashy' signings, because his hands were tied there. I don't think he was a puppet when it came to building the farm, or when it came to lesser FA signings such at Gomes or Napoli.

 

In other words, Larry gets the blame for all the bad stuff. Ben gets credit for the good.

[Kimmi]

DD sold off the farm and built this team around winning the next 3-5 years from 2017 on. Now we can have impending cliff talks all day long but he at least gets to see how this team plays out. We've had two 1st place finishes and as far as I'm concerned he gets two more years before we even ask this question.....and this is coming from a guy who hasn't 100% agreed with his organizational philosophy.

 

FTR, I don't think Dombrowski should be fired for the job he has done so far, and have posted that previously. I just don't think he should have been hired in the first place. He has assembled what should be a contending team for the duration of the window. What happens in the playoffs is out of his control.

[Kimmi]

DD is doing what John Henry wants. If Henry did not want Dombrowski to cash in the farm, then it would not be happening.

 

Henry needs to stop acting or reacting in panic mode.

[Kimmi]

DD is doing what John Henry wants. If Henry did not want Dombrowski to cash in the farm, then it would not be happening.

 

I get what you're saying, but I really don't think Henry wanted Dombrowski to cash in the farm. I think Henry gave the order to Dombrowski to get the team back into the playoffs, and I think Henry allowed Dombrowski pretty much free reign to get the job done how he seemed fit. My problem with Dombrowski is that I think he could have gotten the team back into the playoffs without trading away the farm.

[Elktonnick]

Henry needs to stop acting or reacting in panic mode.

 

While neither criticizing nor praising John Henry, one has to recognize the fact the he has been very successful in every thing he has done by acting and reacting exactly the way he does.

[Larry Cook]

Henry needs to stop acting or reacting in panic mode.

 

Being a reactionary with absolutely no plan and zero forethought is not Henry's job.

 

But it does perfectly describe desperate dave's operational strategy!

[notin]

The Red Six went 93-69 and won the AL East in back-to-back seasons. They then fired the manager, which many fans wanted. Now some want to also fire the general manager. And get rid of the second baseman. And shortstop. And the DH. And the hitting coach.

 

And get two new power bats.

 

Does the team have to go 162-0 before fans think "maybe a little tweaking?" If the Sox were 161-1, alot of people would be calling for Farrell to be canned. And probably Dombrowski too...

[moonslav59]

The Red Six went 93-69 and won the AL East in back-to-back seasons. They then fired the manager, which many fans wanted. Now some want to also fire the general manager. And get rid of the second baseman. And shortstop. And the DH. And the hitting coach.

 

And get two new power bats.

 

Does the team have to go 162-0 before fans think "maybe a little tweaking?" If the Sox were 161-1, alot of people would be calling for Farrell to be canned. And probably Dombrowski too...

 

I don't think anyone wants all of those together.

 

Each one, by themselves, are not too wild and cray.

[Larry Cook]

The Red Six went 93-69 and won the AL East in back-to-back seasons. They then fired the manager, which many fans wanted. Now some want to also fire the general manager. And get rid of the second baseman. And shortstop. And the DH. And the hitting coach.

 

And get two new power bats.

 

Does the team have to go 162-0 before fans think "maybe a little tweaking?" If the Sox were 161-1, alot of people would be calling for Farrell to be canned. And probably Dombrowski too...

 

For clarification purposes only:

 

Yes, I think desperate dave should be kicked to the curb before he can do anymore damage.

 

I wanted to keep Farrell. I thought he did a decent job.

 

I want pedroia to get his knee operated on and come back healthy next season or in 2019. I am sick of watching him trying to play through injuries instead of going to the dl. As a sunsetter, he had to learn that when he is not 100 percent, he is JAG.

 

I am ok with bogey staying. But someone has to light a fire under all our young non catching hitters and get them to realize the goal of sports is to win! None of our young non catching hitters have a fire to compete. They don't care about winning and that can not be tolerated. No more zombies!!!

 

As for Hanley, same as pedroia.

 

Finally chilli. As a hitting coach, he is JAG.

[oldtimer]

I don't think anyone wants all of those together.

 

Each one, by themselves, are not too wild and cray.

 

I agree that virtually no one has asked for all of these things together so misrepresenting it to be that way isn't helpful.

 

If Pedey has surgery, he might well be lost for the season.

 

Farrell was fired because despite our improvement, after 5 years, it didn't appear that the team could make the next jump with teams like Cleveland, the Yankees and the Astros already ahead of us. A reasonable approach to attempt to get better but the decision could go either way.

 

The hitting this year saw many of the most important guys doing worse than expected. Chili Davis is not gone but probably will be as the new manager will want his own guys. A new hitting coach may well change the plate approach of some of the guys and perhaps Bogey will work to change his swing mechanics. I welcome the idea of a different hitting coach.

 

Clearly changes to our infield need to be considered. Devers was horrible defensively this year so it is reasonable to think of a long term position for a guy who they expect to physically mature into a somewhat heavier player. He either needs to solve his defensive lacking or move to 1st base. Pedey could spend time on the DL or if he has surgery might sit for the year. In that caqse, we need a second baseman or supersub who can hit. Nunez was one but there are others. We definitely need a power bat in the lineup. Whether at 1st or 3rd is the question to be resolved. I think Bogey will do but his problems revolve around his offense. See new swing mechanics for him.

 

If Cora comes in as manager we are likely to get a young manager who has Red Sox experience and recent exposure to the Astros way. Sounds good to me. He will have some say in retaining or replacing his coaching staff. Some of the current staff may also choose to take positions elsewhere. I hope that the dust settles on that early so they can form a cohesive team before the Spring Training.

 

Finally, I would expect Cora (if him), Dombroski and the staff evaluate each player and decide who they keep and who will be traded or replaced and then take action accordingly. The pitching staff, long term catching, Center field, utility players all need futher consideration.

[Bellhorn04]

I am ok with bogey staying. But someone has to light a fire under all our young non catching hitters and get them to realize the goal of sports is to win! None of our young non catching hitters have a fire to compete. They don't care about winning and that can not be tolerated. No more zombies!!!

 

Betts, Benintendi, Devers were zombies who don't care about winning?

 

You're too far over the top to take seriously.

[mvp 78]

The Red Six went 93-69 and won the AL East in back-to-back seasons. They then fired the manager, which many fans wanted. Now some want to also fire the general manager. And get rid of the second baseman. And shortstop. And the DH. And the hitting coach.

 

And get two new power bats.

 

Does the team have to go 162-0 before fans think "maybe a little tweaking?" If the Sox were 161-1, alot of people would be calling for Farrell to be canned. And probably Dombrowski too...

 

I think they want a team that won't shrink the last few weeks of the season.

[jacksonianmarch]

I think they want a team that won't shrink the last few weeks of the season.

 

I think it's all about expectations. The sox were expected to be runaway favorites to win the AL East and to contend with Cleveland to go to the world series. Thing is, the sox offense wasn't touched and the offense divebombed. The big pitching acquisitions during DD's term sucked against Houston and they were promptly run from the playoffs for the second year in a row. When your expectation is ALCS or WS and you don't make it, fans will be upset.

[sk7326]

I get what you're saying, but I really don't think Henry wanted Dombrowski to cash in the farm. I think Henry gave the order to Dombrowski to get the team back into the playoffs, and I think Henry allowed Dombrowski pretty much free reign to get the job done how he seemed fit. My problem with Dombrowski is that I think he could have gotten the team back into the playoffs without trading away the farm.

 

If Henry wanted keeping the kids to be a priority for this aim, Dombrowski would have a different approach. (or not been hired)

 

And - given that, Dombrowski has handled the farm kind of well. He was aggressive in identifying his keepers - Benintendi and Devers ... and used the rest as currency. His approach given Boston's market, payroll and priorities is entirely defensible. Now the farm system needs to be reloaded - but that was going to be the case anyway ... the kids were not going to be in AAA forever. Now could he have waited longer to see if Moncada was a thing? Maybe - but he was raw enough that he might not have fit the Red Sox timeline.

 

Minor league pitching is always the trickiest thing. On one hand, having high quality young arms is what every team wants. On the other, the volatility of young pitchers, especially with regards to health, is so high that I can't blame any organization for trading low level arms.

[mvp 78]

If Henry wanted keeping the kids to be a priority for this aim, Dombrowski would have a different approach. (or not been hired)

And - given that, Dombrowski has handled the farm kind of well. He was aggressive in identifying his keepers - Benintendi and Devers ... and used the rest as currency. His approach given Boston's market, payroll and priorities is entirely defensible. Now the farm system needs to be reloaded - but that was going to be the case anyway ... the kids were not going to be in AAA forever. Now could he have waited longer to see if Moncada was a thing? Maybe - but he was raw enough that he might not have fit the Red Sox timeline.

 

Minor league pitching is always the trickiest thing. On one hand, having high quality young arms is what every team wants. On the other, the volatility of young pitchers, especially with regards to health, is so high that I can't blame any organization for trading low level arms.

 

Yup, if Henry didn't like the direction the team headed, no more prospects would have been traded after the Kimbrel deal.

[Slasher9]

Yup, if Henry didn't like the direction the team headed, no more prospects would have been traded after the Kimbrel deal.

 

if you remember, Henry put the reigns on DD as we approached the trading deadline this season......

[Bellhorn04]

if you remember, Henry put the reigns on DD as we approached the trading deadline this season......

 

Do we have any quotes on that?

[sk7326]

if you remember, Henry put the reigns on DD as we approached the trading deadline this season......

 

Did he? I get the sense he knew Devers was staying the entire time.

[Jack Flap]

if you remember, Henry put the reigns on DD as we approached the trading deadline this season......

 

I never bought that report, and still don't. If anything, we didn't make a major trade because there wasn't a good one to be had and/or because the luxury tax prevented it, not because after trading Moncada, Kopech, Espinoza, Margot, etc. JH suddenly decided the likes of Groome, Chavis, and Mata were untouchable.

Edited October 17, 2017 by Jack Flap

[Fan_since_Boggs]

You watch Verlander and Darvish pitch in the postseason and you can't help but wonder if the Red Sox would have been better off keeping Kopech and Moncada and acquiring a pitcher like Verlander or Darvish without giving up such great young talent. The Astros and Dodgers acquired Verlander and Darvish without giving up prospects like Moncada and Kopech.

 

Sure, without Sale, the Red Sox probably don't win the division but where did winning the division get them? Sale helped them win a division but then, in turn, helped them lose in the ALDS. The Red Sox need more power in their lineup. Moncada is going to strike out a lot, but he would give them power at 2b for years to come. It also looks like the Red Sox are going to soon need a starting 2b--Pedroia isn't going to last forever and will likely need some work at DH to keep him fresh.

 

In the meantime, Kopech looks like a stud.

 

I'm skeptical things will end well for Dombrowski. He will likely leave the organization as a disgrace in a couple of years. He won't be fired, Henry won't do that to him, but if he doesn't win a championship over the next two years, his trades will likely haunt the Red Sox for years to come.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Fan_since_Boggs

[Slasher9]

Fire DD

[Bellhorn04]

Fire DD

 

You're going for the doubleheader of JF and DD.

[illinoisredsox]

You watch Verlander and Darvish pitch in the postseason and you can't help but wonder if the Red Sox would have been better off keeping Kopech and Moncada and acquiring a pitcher like Verlander or Darvish without giving up such great young talent. The Astros and Dodgers acquired Verlander and Darvish without giving up prospects like Moncada and Kopech.

 

Sure, without Sale, the Red Sox probably don't win the division but where did winning the division get them? Sale helped them win a division but then, in turn, helped them lose in the ALDS. The Red Sox need more power in their lineup. Moncada is going to strike out a lot, but he would give them power at 2b for years to come. It also looks like the Red Sox are going to soon need a starting 2b--Pedroia isn't going to last forever and will likely need some work at DH to keep him fresh.

 

In the meantime, Kopech looks like a stud.

 

I'm skeptical things will end well for Dombrowski. He will likely leave the organization as a disgrace in a couple of years. He won't be fired, Henry won't do that to him, but if he doesn't win a championship over the next two years, his trades will likely haunt the Red Sox for years to come.

 

Without Sale, the Sox are not even sniffing the postseason. There would have been no need to acquire a Darvish/Verlander at the deadline.

 

Darvish was not doing all that great this year in Texas. He's pitched much better with the Dodgers, but when he left the Rangers, there was no indication that he would do so. He is also a free agent after this year, which, along with his season performance at that point, was one reason he came relatively cheap. If he signs in the NL, let's see what happens when the National League has seen him a time or two.

 

Verlander had no desire to leave Detroit; as a 10-5 guy he had complete veto power. He had to be talked into going to the Astros; basically they sold him on a shot at a title. Again, without Sale, the Sox are not in a position to have a shot. He is signed for roughly $22M per through 2019; that would have been a huge luxury tax hit in a year when they were trying to reset it. His was a salary dump on the part of the Tigers.

[notin]

I think they want a team that won't shrink the last few weeks of the season.

 

Right. So they should clean house and replace the current team and personnel with as many changes as possible. The far more likely outcome is a team where the last few weeks don't matter....

[Slasher9]

Without Sale, the Sox are not even sniffing the postseason. There would have been no need to acquire a Darvish/Verlander at the deadline.

 

 

Actually Sale was a 6.1 WAR player in 2017. we could have replaced him in the rotation with an 'average' pitcher and still competed in the playin game by 5 games.

[notin]

Without Sale, the Sox are not even sniffing the postseason. There would have been no need to acquire a Darvish/Verlander at the deadline.

 

Darvish was not doing all that great this year in Texas. He's pitched much better with the Dodgers, but when he left the Rangers, there was no indication that he would do so. He is also a free agent after this year, which, along with his season performance at that point, was one reason he came relatively cheap. If he signs in the NL, let's see what happens when the National League has seen him a time or two.

 

Verlander had no desire to leave Detroit; as a 10-5 guy he had complete veto power. He had to be talked into going to the Astros; basically they sold him on a shot at a title. Again, without Sale, the Sox are not in a position to have a shot. He is signed for roughly $22M per through 2019; that would have been a huge luxury tax hit in a year when they were trying to reset it. His was a salary dump on the part of the Tigers.

 

Without Sale -no post-season. Especially true after Price went down...