Should DD be fired?

[Kimmi]

I think a lot of it is players being healthier and playing better. Seriously, this team had issues with both - and won 93 games! And note - Benintendi, Betts, Bradley did not actually have bad years ... they had years which were right in the middle of the bell curve of outcomes for them. But most good seasons you expect a player or two to be near the upper end of outcomes - best versions of themselves. Aside from Moreland frankly - that did not happen with our position players. And we won anyway.

 

This is what I'm talking about.

[Kimmi]

We've become a little spoiled, I think. It's still a great time to be a Red Sox fan, and that's been true since 2003. The John Henry era continues to pile up accomplishments.

 

We've become Yankees fans.

 

Present company excluded, of course.

[bowman]

Fire his butt. Shaw hit 31 homers and we got what for him. I'm not saying Shaw is the second coming of Machado, but come on. You have to be able to evaluate talent. Worst case he plays 3b for us last year and hits 25 + homers and knocks in 80 - 100 RBI's. I'll take it all day long. He or Devers goes to IB and that solves that problem. If we wanted to get him back, what do you think it would cost us DD. Real good move..

[oldtimer]

Fire his butt. Shaw hit 31 homers and we got what for him. I'm not saying Shaw is the second coming of Machado, but come on. You have to be able to evaluate talent. Worst case he plays 3b for us last year and hits 25 + homers and knocks in 80 - 100 RBI's. I'll take it all day long. He or Devers goes to IB and that solves that problem. If we wanted to get him back, what do you think it would cost us DD. Real good move..

 

Under Sox coaching Shaw was not hitting and Thornburg was a hot pitching prospect. The move was a reasonable one which didn't turn out well. It is hard to be right 100 % of the time. Give DD a break, many of his trades have worked out well and we may well see even the trade you complain about look much better next season.

[Bellhorn04]

Trading Shaw for Thornburg was a bad move alright, but hardly a fireable offense.

[mvp 78]

Trading Shaw for Thornburg was a bad move alright, but hardly a fireable offense.

 

Yup, and I don't anyone complaining about the trade at the time. This is an obvious instance of hindsight is 20/20.

[Slasher9]

i think shaw is one of those guys that needed to get out of the baseball spotlight that is Boston. he thrives in anonymity.

[bosoxmal]

Daic Ortiz prior to WS game 2:

 

_ I was mad when they (the Red Sox) let him (Rcih Hill) go!!!

[jacksonianmarch]

We've become a little spoiled, I think. It's still a great time to be a Red Sox fan, and that's been true since 2003. The John Henry era continues to pile up accomplishments.

 

You have become a bit spoiled, but the abrupt change in philosophy certainly can perplex fans and change expectations. If my team had the top overall farm system and then dealt it all away to win now, my expectation would be that they won and showed well in the postseason. The sox have won in the regular season, but appeared entirely unprepared for the playoffs. While back to back AL East titles is awesome, winning but a single game in the playoffs over 2 years is not. Plus, when the future is bright, it takes the sting off the losses. When you know you're facing a cliff, the urgency is there to win. Most sox fans can remember vividly the last place finishes and when you are staring a cliff in the face, know that you're going to get back to that point again. Relishing a title in that time makes it all worth it. Watching opportunities wasted makes it all a waste. Its just anxiety management

 

Also, watching the Yankees rebuild in half a season and then get within a game of the world series tightens up that urgency

[notin]

i think shaw is one of those guys that needed to get out of the baseball spotlight that is Boston. he thrives in anonymity.

 

Nah. He grew up in clubhouse. I don't think he knows anything else.

 

I think DD bailed too early. But then so did I so I don't hold it against him....

[moonslav59]

You have become a bit spoiled, but the abrupt change in philosophy certainly can perplex fans and change expectations. If my team had the top overall farm system and then dealt it all away to win now, my expectation would be that they won and showed well in the postseason. The sox have won in the regular season, but appeared entirely unprepared for the playoffs. While back to back AL East titles is awesome, winning but a single game in the playoffs over 2 years is not. Plus, when the future is bright, it takes the sting off the losses. When you know you're facing a cliff, the urgency is there to win. Most sox fans can remember vividly the last place finishes and when you are staring a cliff in the face, know that you're going to get back to that point again. Relishing a title in that time makes it all worth it. Watching opportunities wasted makes it all a waste. Its just anxiety management

 

Also, watching the Yankees rebuild in half a season and then get within a game of the world series tightens up that urgency

 

The playoffs are a crap shoot. I'm not so sure we can reed too much into a couple series for each of our teams (Sox in 2016 & 2017 and the Yanks two series this year).

 

Yeah, it's disappointing. Missing two opportunities is frustrating.

 

I do believe in the "cliff". I'm huge on keeping a strong farm, but DD made the bed. It's time to sleep in it. No half way s*** the next 2 years. We need to try to get to be a favorite of co-favorite to at least win the AL in the next 2 years.

 

That's not happening standing pat or signing Moreland and Nunez.

 

[moonslav59]

Nah. He grew up in clubhouse. I don't think he knows anything else.

 

I think DD bailed too early. But then so did I so I don't hold it against him....

 

Shaw was my "sleeper prospect pick" for two years in a row- way back. I gave up on him too. His minor league career was full of good half seasons and bad-- more bad than good over his prior 2-3 years before his call-up.

 

Then, he looked awful the last half of 2016. I was actually more upset about giving up Dubon than Shaw, and I was not alone.

 

I realize there were a couple posters who were high on Shaw, and kudos to them, but I can't see getting upset over DD trading him at that point in his career. He guessed wrong, but it was not something anyone expected. Even the Shaw fans never expected him to do what he did in the small market town of Milwaukee.

 

[jacksonianmarch]

The playoffs are a crap shoot. I'm not so sure we can reed too much into a couple series for each of our teams (Sox in 2016 & 2017 and the Yanks two series this year).

 

Yeah, it's disappointing. Missing two opportunities is frustrating.

 

I do believe in the "cliff". I'm huge on keeping a strong farm, but DD made the bed. It's time to sleep in it. No half way s*** the next 2 years. We need to try to get to be a favorite of co-favorite to at least win the AL in the next 2 years.

 

That's not happening standing pat or signing Moreland and Nunez.

 

 

You are entirely correct. DD has committed to this team. You have to go all the way. If I was DD, I would assume 2018 is my final year. I'd convince Henry to pour money into the team like he never has before. You now need a starter, a big bat and a second baseman. That $40 mil just got real small. I think there is a chance Chavis could break camp with the sox, but that'd be pushing it a bit. Either way, he has to spend, he has to deal. With Pedroia and ERod looking to miss significant time in 2018 and your DH coming off shoulder surgery, the AL East champs look to be behind the Yankees in the way too early rankings for the AL East. With what DD has committed, he cannot lose the offseason

[moonslav59]

You are entirely correct. DD has committed to this team. You have to go all the way. If I was DD, I would assume 2018 is my final year. I'd convince Henry to pour money into the team like he never has before. You now need a starter, a big bat and a second baseman. That $40 mil just got real small. I think there is a chance Chavis could break camp with the sox, but that'd be pushing it a bit. Either way, he has to spend, he has to deal. With Pedroia and ERod looking to miss significant time in 2018 and your DH coming off shoulder surgery, the AL East champs look to be behind the Yankees in the way too early rankings for the AL East. With what DD has committed, he cannot lose the offseason

 

It's scary. Although the Yanks have been talking about cutting salary, they are losing enough salary to surprise with a big signing or trade. That would put enormous pressure on DD.

 

I can see Kimmi's point of view, and I do think we can be very competitive next year without any major deals, and a little luck with injuries, but we've already set up the cliff in order to be at the top of mix and not to hang near the fringe.

[Larry Cook]

It's scary. Although the Yanks have been talking about cutting salary, they are losing enough salary to surprise with a big signing or trade. That would put enormous pressure on DD.

 

I can see Kimmi's point of view, and I do think we can be very competitive next year without any major deals, and a little luck with injuries, but we've already set up the cliff in order to be at the top of mix and not to hang near the fringe.

 

No doubt the Yankees will be extremely good next season.

 

But desperate dave can not go into fireman mode this offseason, over react and do something stupid!!!

 

I would advise him to stick to the plan, but we all know he does not have one.

[moonslav59]

No doubt the Yankees will be extremely good next season.

 

But desperate dave can not go into fireman mode this offseason, over react and do something stupid!!!

 

I would advise him to stick to the plan, but we all know he does not have one.

 

His plan must involve upgrading our power.

 

I'm all about pitching and defense, but you can't field a team who plays half its games in Fenway Park and have such a disadvantage to your opponents in power.

 

He might not have to nutty, but he needs to something rather significant.

[jacksonianmarch]

It's scary. Although the Yanks have been talking about cutting salary, they are losing enough salary to surprise with a big signing or trade. That would put enormous pressure on DD.

 

I can see Kimmi's point of view, and I do think we can be very competitive next year without any major deals, and a little luck with injuries, but we've already set up the cliff in order to be at the top of mix and not to hang near the fringe.

 

The Yankees aren’t “cutting salary” as much as we have a spending cap. With all the expiring contracts, we actually have something like $50 mil to burn before we hit the cap. If Tanaka opts out, we’ve got $72 mil before hitting the cap. If we deal off Ells and save $8 mil per year, then we’ve got $80 mil before we hit the cap. And this is all in anticipation of signing Harper next offseason and some of the holes created can be filled internally with top prospects. We will be extremely competitive at the lower salary level.

[cp176]

The playoffs are a crap shoot. I'm not so sure we can reed too much into a couple series for each of our teams (Sox in 2016 & 2017 and the Yanks two series this year).

 

Yeah, it's disappointing. Missing two opportunities is frustrating.

 

I do believe in the "cliff". I'm huge on keeping a strong farm, but DD made the bed. It's time to sleep in it. No half way s*** the next 2 years. We need to try to get to be a favorite of co-favorite to at least win the AL in the next 2 years.

 

That's not happening standing pat or signing Moreland and Nunez.

 

 

Moon - You can probably refresh my memory. There is such great talk of this mythical cliff, as well as our having traded away our incredibly strong farm while sacrificing our future. I don't believe in the cliff theory and I am kind of confused about the players that we traded away in an effort to strengthen our current team. Maybe eventually, some day, one or two of the future super stars that got away will prove to be something other then depth options but to date, i don't think so. Losing Shaw of course hurt, but if I'm not mistaken, he was already playing for us. I'm pretty well convinced that many of the people who constantly beat the cliff and farm issues to death, just don't like DD. That is their opinion which I'm ok with. Who are these guys that are going to make us wish that we never traded for Pomeranz, Sale, and Kimbrel? Moncada? Kopech? ok - maybe some day. Margot may be the only one who could help us a little now. Overall, I am just really pleased with an ownership and General Manager who sees the value in trying to stay competitive year in and year out.

[Bellhorn04]

No doubt the Yankees will be extremely good next season.

 

But desperate dave can not go into fireman mode this offseason, over react and do something stupid!!!

 

I would advise him to stick to the plan, but we all know he does not have one.

 

Yeah, after all they've only won the division 2 years in a row after finishing last the 2 previous years. Such terrible incompetence!

[Dojji]

Larry Cook isn't wrong. Dombrowski has a flair for the dramatic that gets the best of him at times. This team needs minor adjustments rather than a major overhaul, but DD has shown he likes to make a splash.

[Slasher9]

This team needs minor adjustments rather than a major overhaul, .

if by "minor adjustment" you mean Giancarlo Stanton then i agree with you 1 billion percent.

[moonslav59]

The Yankees aren’t “cutting salary” as much as we have a spending cap. With all the expiring contracts, we actually have something like $50 mil to burn before we hit the cap. If Tanaka opts out, we’ve got $72 mil before hitting the cap. If we deal off Ells and save $8 mil per year, then we’ve got $80 mil before we hit the cap. And this is all in anticipation of signing Harper next offseason and some of the holes created can be filled internally with top prospects. We will be extremely competitive at the lower salary level.

 

The Yanks were over the luxury tax in 2017 and have stated they want to get under this year. That could be fluff, but if it is true, it's "cutting salary" through attrition.

[moonslav59]

Moon - You can probably refresh my memory. There is such great talk of this mythical cliff, as well as our having traded away our incredibly strong farm while sacrificing our future. I don't believe in the cliff theory and I am kind of confused about the players that we traded away in an effort to strengthen our current team. Maybe eventually, some day, one or two of the future super stars that got away will prove to be something other then depth options but to date, i don't think so. Losing Shaw of course hurt, but if I'm not mistaken, he was already playing for us. I'm pretty well convinced that many of the people who constantly beat the cliff and farm issues to death, just don't like DD. That is their opinion which I'm ok with. Who are these guys that are going to make us wish that we never traded for Pomeranz, Sale, and Kimbrel? Moncada? Kopech? ok - maybe some day. Margot may be the only one who could help us a little now. Overall, I am just really pleased with an ownership and General Manager who sees the value in trying to stay competitive year in and year out.

 

You don't know my position by now?

 

I was firmly against the Kimbrel & Pom trades, but not because I didn't think both would help the team. I thought we gave up too much and should have "saved" our prospects for deals like the Sale trade (and Quintana or possibly Stanton). P & K did a wonderful job for us in 2017.

 

I am not against trading away top prospects. I suggest those type trades all the time. I loved the Sale trade and was okay with the Thorburg trade.

 

We do have Devers and Beni to look forward to long term, but we need a balance of upcoming, cheap, young players to compliment the expensive vets. The balance will tip wildly in 2020 or perhaps with some massive spending, 2021. We are not the "Dodgers East", unless Henry decides to change his spending habits. Until I see it, I'm thinking "cliff". To me, it's close to being a sure bet we become mediocre or the top spender by 2021.

 

Here's soxprospects 2021 "futures roster". Tell me how you fill in the many holes with a limited spending budget?

 

Price

_____

_____

ERod

Groome, Mata, Scherff

 

Closer: _____ (Houck)

_______

_______

Barnes

Workman

Beeks

Johnson, Shawaryn

 

C _______ (Baldwin, Romanski)

1B Travis, Ockimey

2B Pedey

SS ______ (Chatham, Lin, Hernandez)

3B Devers

LF _____ (Lin)

CF Beni

RF _____ (Brannen)

DH Chavis

 

There's no way the prospect list we have now, fill enough holes. We are going to need massive spending and/or incredibly good luck with prospect development and signings between now and then.

 

It blows my mind that some feel like keeping all of those prospects wouldn't have made a significant difference -not just in young talent but in cost control- in 2020 or 2021 and beyond.

 

Moncada

Kopech

Margot

Espinoza

Dubon

Basabe

 

These probably won't amount to much, but one might:

Logan Allen

Asuaje

Guerra

Basabe (the other one)

Diaz

Rijo

 

I like our recent draft and international signings, but I still think the cliff is far from "mythical". It is probable to highly probable.

 

[Bellhorn04]

Larry Cook isn't wrong. Dombrowski has a flair for the dramatic that gets the best of him at times. This team needs minor adjustments rather than a major overhaul, but DD has shown he likes to make a splash.

 

Give me an example of him 'making a splash' since he joined the Sox.

[moonslav59]

Give me an example of him 'making a splash' since he joined the Sox.

 

LOL....

 

2016: Price

 

2017: Sale

[Bellhorn04]

LOL....

 

2016: Price

 

2017: Sale

 

Arguably just necessary acquisitions.

 

Depends what you call making a splash.

 

When I think splash moves I think moves made mainly to please the fans.

[NativeBostonian]

Arguably just necessary acquisitions.

 

Depends what you call making a splash.

 

When I think splash moves I think moves made mainly to please the fans.

 

Firing Farrell could be one.

[Bellhorn04]

Firing Farrell could be one.

 

Maybe, but I don't think that was the reason. And it's not like he hired some famous retread, he went for new blood.

[NativeBostonian]

Maybe, but I don't think that was the reason. And it's not like he hired some famous retread, he went for new blood.

 

I don't think it was the entire reason. But, this team was widely unpopular, this last season and Farrel was one of the many reasons. That's a public relations nightmare and when that happens, you make moves accordingly.

[NativeBostonian]

I don't think Dave Dabrowski should even be close to getting fired. He's made some really good moves and people need to realize that. It's not his fault that the team tends to fall apart at the end of the season and doesn't do anything in the playoffs. That's a managers inability to get his team ready for the postseason, not Dave's ability to put together a team.