Sox hitting??

[mvp 78]

No to Chavis & Lakins for Harrison.

 

I might give Ockimey and Beeks, especially if Pitt paid some cash.

 

Harrison is pretty terrible at 3b. I wouldn't trade Ockimey for him straight up.

[mvp 78]

What would a trade for a rent a third baseman accomplish for this team is the question that DD has to answer. My guess would be not much in the long run. Might make us feel better but if it doesn't provide the type of upgrade that will make this team significantly better in the short term, why do it? Trade no one for a rest of the year rental.

 

Yup.

[Emp9]

Harrison is pretty terrible at 3b. I wouldn't trade Ockimey for him straight up.

 

Harrison's a better 3Bman than Frazier. He's had a bit a of a down year at 3B and an up year at 2B. One could argue that overall, 3B is his best position though. He's better than what we've had at 3B on both defense and offense in years. If Pedey needs to sit or get injured Harrison would be a solid replacement at 2B as well. His salary would fit under cap limit too. Considering our options I think Harrison would be the best option up to this point.

[Bellhorn04]

What would a trade for a rent a third baseman accomplish for this team is the question that DD has to answer. My guess would be not much in the long run. Might make us feel better but if it doesn't provide the type of upgrade that will make this team significantly better in the short term, why do it? Trade no one for a rest of the year rental.

 

I'm sure no one's greatly excited about Prado, but if we can get Phelps in the deal and we don't have to give up much talent because we're taking on Prado's salary, it might be a palatable option.

[moonslav59]

While I don't have the data in front of me, I suspect Bruce's OPS against RHP over the last 28 days is superior to Hanley's.

 

I want the Red Sox to add some depth, even if that means that Duda/Bruce won't be playing everyday. If Hanley and Moreland are red hot, sure, Duda/Bruce will spend some time on the bench. In the meantime, the Red Sox would have the depth to handle an injury and there is a relatively good chance that Hanley or Moreland will struggle offensively at times in the second half, and giving Hanley Ramirez an occasional day off against a tough righty seems like a pretty good strategy to me. Bruce is a lousy OF, but he would actually provide the Red Sox some depth in the corner outfield positions (as well as DH and 1b) and Chris Young isn't producing this year. And Sam Travis hasn't proved he can perform at a high level against AAA pitching, not to mention major league pitching. Travis is lousy depth IMO.

 

Bruce will cost too much even as a FT player. Overpaying for someone to play part time is not a good choice, IMO.

 

Young is not doing all that much worse than recent years. He's doing near a career best vs RHPs, and if he can get his act together vs LHPs, he may end up having a great year.

 

The team has a .750 OPS over the last 28 days: Young is at .762.

 

I still have total faith in Young as our 4th OF'er. If an OF'er gets hurt, I'll worry a little, but maybe Holt will be ready to take the 4th OF'er place in that instance, or we could add Brentz to the 40 man and take our chances with him. He was caalled up before after doing much worse than he is now.

[moonslav59]

Harrison is pretty terrible at 3b. I wouldn't trade Ockimey for him straight up.

 

I'm not sure where you are getting your information about Harrison's defense, but the numbers show he is clearly a plus defender at 3B (and 2B).

 

Career

 

3B

UZR/150 +7.0 (In all fairness, he has been worse over the last 2 years at 3B)

DRS +17 in 1777 innings (which is very very good

 

2B

UZR/150 +2.4

DRS +20 in 2079 innings at 2B

 

He sucks at SS and the OF.

 

[OH FOY]

You absolutely cannot keep giving up Young Talent for Relievers. Dumb formula. Either bring kids up from the Farm or take on contracts. See if another way to stay under the Luxury Tax, if you cant, you cant.

[Spudboy]

Just personally, I wouldn't make either of those trades. I'd much rather have Frazier than Prado at this point, but I get the feeling that the asking price is going to be higher than I'd be willing to go.

 

More and more I'm warming up to the idea that standing pat with regards to 3B wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

 

I agree. I've been saying this all along.

 

This team prevailed with Bellhorn playing 2nd.

[moonslav59]

We can "prevail" with a weak link or two, but teams in the hunt often try to improve their odds of winning, even if slightly, at the deadline.

 

We're not the favorites right now. We're not even the favorites to win the AL, and you can bet your bottom dollar the Astros, Guardians and the top NL teams will all be in the hunt for usable talent at the deadline.

 

Most teams strive to improve their weakest links, even if their weakest link is near league average.

 

3B is clearly a weakness for us- not just our weakest link. We can hope and pray that Lin/Marrero keep up their recent pace, but I feel like the odds are greatly against that happening. I was one of the last to give up on Pablo, and I hope he's not part of any plan at 3B for the second half of 2017. We might see Rutledge or Holt back to help out at 3B, but none of these guys appear to be enough to bring us near average at 3B. I'd love to see Devers get a chance, but I really think that if he hasn't been given a chance so far this year, with all the great need we've had there, why would a few more weeks suddenly make him ML ready.

 

If Sox management does plan on bringing Devers up to get a legitimate shot to win the 3B job, I hope they do it before the deadline or at least before the waiver wire deadline, so we have a chance to pick someone up before it's too late. I'm fine with standing pat, if Devers is in the 2017 plan, but if not, I'd try hard to find a deal where we do not have to overpay for a 3B rental. If none are out there, then doing nothing is not going to crush me. I DO NOT want to overpay for anyone this deadline, so maybe doing nothing is the best choice.

 

Let's see what offers are out there and go from there.

 

[moonslav59]

I agree. I've been saying this all along.

 

This team prevailed with Bellhorn playing 2nd.

 

Bellhorn had an .817 OPS in 2004.

 

I'd be thrilled to get a .717 OPS from 3B this year.

 

Mark also had 3 HRs and 8 RBI in 14 playoff games.

[mvp 78]

Bellhorn had an .817 OPS in 2004.

 

I'd be thrilled to get a .717 OPS from 3B this year.

 

Mark also had 3 HRs and 8 RBI in 14 playoff games.

 

Bellhorn was also good at keeping the ball girls happy.

[moonslav59]

Bellhorn was also good at keeping the ball girls happy.

 

He had a .373 OBP and 82 RBIs in 2004.

 

We currently have a .625 3B OPS (.287 OBP).

 

[Fan_since_Boggs]

Yeah, the Red Sox have to upgrade at the trade deadline. The Astros look like a dangerous team this year but the Red Sox have C.Sale and maybe the Red Sox can ride him in the playoffs. But to optimize their chances, an upgrade is a good idea. I wouldn't be overly aggressive chasing a bullpen arm--Carson Smith might be able to help out and Workman looks good in AAA. Instead, I want an offensive upgrade somewhere.

 

But I wouldn't trade Devers or Groome.

[moonslav59]

Yeah, the Red Sox have to upgrade at the trade deadline. The Astros look like a dangerous team this year but the Red Sox have C.Sale and maybe the Red Sox can ride him in the playoffs. But to optimize their chances, an upgrade is a good idea. I wouldn't be overly aggressive chasing a bullpen arm--Carson Smith might be able to help out and Workman looks good in AAA. Instead, I want an offensive upgrade somewhere.

 

But I wouldn't trade Devers or Groome.

 

I wouldn't either, but I'd like to have a better 3bman and a lights out set-up man. This won't be cheap, so maybe we'll have little choice but to stand pat or grossly overpay by further depleting our extended future's chances.

[Jack Flap]

You absolutely cannot keep giving up Young Talent for Relievers. Dumb formula. Either bring kids up from the Farm or take on contracts. See if another way to stay under the Luxury Tax, if you cant, you cant.

 

That's why I'm wary of these Pat Neshek rumors. He (or someone like him) would certainly help us, I just hope it doesn't cost us a prospect like Chavis.

 

I agree. I've been saying this all along.

 

This team prevailed with Bellhorn playing 2nd.

 

I mean, Bellhorn was a 3.7-win player in 2004, but I get your point.

[Fan_since_Boggs]

That's why I'm wary of these Pat Neshek rumors. He (or someone like him) would certainly help us, I just hope it doesn't cost us a prospect like Chavis.

 

I might trade Chavis for a relief pitcher that is signed beyond this year, but I wouldn't trade him for an older relief pitcher like Neshek. Ultimately, a hitter is a higher priority for me--I would trade Chavis for an offensive upgrade (and rental) like Frazier or Bruce. I'm willing to put some of my chips on the table--but I'm not willing to part with Devers or Groome.

[oldtimer]

Bruce will cost too much even as a FT player. Overpaying for someone to play part time is not a good choice, IMO.

 

Young is not doing all that much worse than recent years. He's doing near a career best vs RHPs, and if he can get his act together vs LHPs, he may end up having a great year.

 

The team has a .750 OPS over the last 28 days: Young is at .762.

 

I still have total faith in Young as our 4th OF'er. If an OF'er gets hurt, I'll worry a little, but maybe Holt will be ready to take the 4th OF'er place in that instance, or we could add Brentz to the 40 man and take our chances with him. He was caalled up before after doing much worse than he is now.

 

I agree with you about Young and would even go so far as to resign him for next year. Good defender and as good a hitter as a utility player is likely to be. I would not expect Holt to return to form as his injuries have been increasing in severity. Brentz is not a good defensive player but may be adequate as an emergency fill in and pinch hitter.

[oldtimer]

We can "prevail" with a weak link or two, but teams in the hunt often try to improve their odds of winning, even if slightly, at the deadline.

 

We're not the favorites right now. We're not even the favorites to win the AL, and you can bet your bottom dollar the Astros, Guardians and the top NL teams will all be in the hunt for usable talent at the deadline.

 

Most teams strive to improve their weakest links, even if their weakest link is near league average.

 

3B is clearly a weakness for us- not just our weakest link. We can hope and pray that Lin/Marrero keep up their recent pace, but I feel like the odds are greatly against that happening. I was one of the last to give up on Pablo, and I hope he's not part of any plan at 3B for the second half of 2017. We might see Rutledge or Holt back to help out at 3B, but none of these guys appear to be enough to bring us near average at 3B. I'd love to see Devers get a chance, but I really think that if he hasn't been given a chance so far this year, with all the great need we've had there, why would a few more weeks suddenly make him ML ready.

 

If Sox management does plan on bringing Devers up to get a legitimate shot to win the 3B job, I hope they do it before the deadline or at least before the waiver wire deadline, so we have a chance to pick someone up before it's too late. I'm fine with standing pat, if Devers is in the 2017 plan, but if not, I'd try hard to find a deal where we do not have to overpay for a 3B rental. If none are out there, then doing nothing is not going to crush me. I DO NOT want to overpay for anyone this deadline, so maybe doing nothing is the best choice.

 

Let's see what offers are out there and go from there.

 

 

Well reasoned and expresses the possibilities of dealing with the third base performance issues in the clearest light. Personally, I have given up on Pablo, even though he has tried to resserect his career. It just hasn't happened and looks like one of our worst personnel moves in our recent history.

 

It's difficult to understand the Red Sox FO position on Devers. It appears that they are not sold on his ability to improve our performance at 3rd base this year. They do need to make a decision soon as the alternatives are to stand pat or to try to pick up help before the trade deadline.

 

Standing pat to me means keeping Lin in the fold as at least a flexible utility infielder with at least some offensive capability. The second part is to decide on whether Marrero or Rutledge is a better option to stand pat with. i am leery of Holt coming back this year as his injury history is a red flag to me. Others may see the stand pat option differently as Lin is certainly not a proven commodity at this early exposure but there is hope for him.

 

Hard to see a renta 3rd base option that can improve the team for a reasonble cost in tradeable assets.

 

I would look elsewhere myself for a renta relief pitcher to bolster our bull pen for the second half and get team improvement in that way.

[oldtimer]

That's why I'm wary of these Pat Neshek rumors. He (or someone like him) would certainly help us, I just hope it doesn't cost us a prospect like Chavis.

 

 

 

I mean, Bellhorn was a 3.7-win player in 2004, but I get your point.

 

My understanding of Chavis is that while he appears to have a chance of hitting ML pitching, the Sox are not happy with his progress defensively. I am not sure where he would fit in the organization, with Pedey and Devers in the positions he would most likely qualify for. If he is a second choice asset, wouldn't it be better to trade him for someone who could help us now?

[bowman]

We as an org. can't afford to trade any young power hitter right now. Not for a relief pitcher. The Sox weren't sure about Shaw either and how did that turn out.... Our biggest need right now is a dependable power bat. Hopefully at 3b, but someone..

[moonslav59]

I agree with you about Young and would even go so far as to resign him for next year. Good defender and as good a hitter as a utility player is likely to be. I would not expect Holt to return to form as his injuries have been increasing in severity. Brentz is not a good defensive player but may be adequate as an emergency fill in and pinch hitter.

 

I'd maybe consider Young next year, but I'd rather get a LF'er that can play 1B and/or 3B as well.

 

If we trade for Prada, then we won't need Young.

 

Harrison can play LF as well, but not very well.

 

Young is getting older. He might want a chance to play more and make more than we are willing to pay.

[moonslav59]

My understanding of Chavis is that while he appears to have a chance of hitting ML pitching, the Sox are not happy with his progress defensively. I am not sure where he would fit in the organization, with Pedey and Devers in the positions he would most likely qualify for. If he is a second choice asset, wouldn't it be better to trade him for someone who could help us now?

 

Chavis may end up at DH or LF or 1B. I wouldn't be so quick to trade him, just because he has struggled on defense at 3B.

[Nick]

I'd maybe consider Young next year, but I'd rather get a LF'er that can play 1B and/or 3B as well.

 

If we trade for Prada, then we won't need Young.

 

Harrison can play LF as well, but not very well.

 

Young is getting older. He might want a chance to play more and make more than we are willing to pay.

 

He's not going to take a pay cut. He's not going to take a one year deal. Pass on him big time.

You need to make choices. No f***ing way I pay $7.5M for a part time player. It's a luxury we can't afford. Not when you give $19M to guy that's getting his walking papers soon.

[moonslav59]

Well reasoned and expresses the possibilities of dealing with the third base performance issues in the clearest light. Personally, I have given up on Pablo, even though he has tried to resserect his career. It just hasn't happened and looks like one of our worst personnel moves in our recent history.

 

It's difficult to understand the Red Sox FO position on Devers. It appears that they are not sold on his ability to improve our performance at 3rd base this year. They do need to make a decision soon as the alternatives are to stand pat or to try to pick up help before the trade deadline.

 

Standing pat to me means keeping Lin in the fold as at least a flexible utility infielder with at least some offensive capability. The second part is to decide on whether Marrero or Rutledge is a better option to stand pat with. i am leery of Holt coming back this year as his injury history is a red flag to me. Others may see the stand pat option differently as Lin is certainly not a proven commodity at this early exposure but there is hope for him.

 

Hard to see a renta 3rd base option that can improve the team for a reasonble cost in tradeable assets.

 

I would look elsewhere myself for a renta relief pitcher to bolster our bull pen for the second half and get team improvement in that way.

 

That could very well be the direction we go, and I wouldn't disagree depending on what the cost would be for a RP'ers vs a 3Bman.

 

DD has a pretty bad record with RP'er recently. He trades- they go on the DL.

 

Kelly has done a very good job as our set up guy, but his K rate is so low, that it is hard to compare him to other top contenders' lights out middle men.

 

Hembree and Barnes have also done well, but does anyone really have a lot of faith in either of them?

 

Remember, the reason we traded for Thornburg in the first place was to help ease the loss of Koji, Ziegler & Tazawa plus the skeptical nature of Carson Smith's health status.

 

[moonslav59]

He's not going to take a pay cut. He's not going to take a one year deal. Pass on him big time.

You need to make choices. No f***ing way I pay $7.5M for a part time player. It's a luxury we can't afford. Not when you give $19M to guy that's getting his walking papers soon.

 

I seriously doubt Young gets $7.5M from anyone

[Fan_since_Boggs]

On another forum, someone was saying that R.Castillo would likely take C.Young's spot next year. Castillo is doing OK in AAA this year--he is probably good enough to be a fourth OF in the major leagues. And he is a few years younger than Young (actually, Castillo is almost four years younger than Young).

 

The Red Sox are paying Castillo anyway and so maybe they would try to get a little value out of him. Since the Red Sox will be under the luxury tax this season, they might not care about going over next season, meaning they might not care about adding Castillo's contract to the overall payroll that determines the luxury tax.

 

I think there is almost a zero chance Chris Young returns to the Red Sox next season. He will turn 34 this Sept, meaning he will turn 35 late in the 2018 season. No thanks. There has to be a better option, a younger and more athletic option.

 

BTW, the Red Sox will no longer be paying Craig after this season. Castillo is due 35 million from 2018-2020 (he won't opt out in 2020).

Edited July 13, 2017 by Fan_since_Boggs

[Nick]

I seriously doubt Young gets $7.5M from anyone

 

Anyone but the Red Sox......this is the organization that though it was good idea to give Masterson $9.5M plus incentives. "oh well, it was a one year deal".....probably got a bonus for only wasting $9.5M as opposed to $90M.....Red Sox front office evaluation form. "How much money did you save by not giving out multiple year contracts?"

 

I'm not ragging on you Moon. I think we think mostly alike. We appreciate value and we don't mind spending money on value.

 

Say what you will, Price FA signing, Kimbrel trade, Sale trade, Pomeranz trade, they were all bold moves by DD. I suppose we should pen the Carson Smith/Thornburg hiccups to DD but man, I don't think there were red flags on their injuries.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Nick

[mvp 78]

Anyone but the Red Sox......this is the organization that though it was good idea to give Masterson $9.5M plus incentives. "oh well, it was a one year deal".....probably got a bonus for only wasting $9.5M as opposed to $90M.....Red Sox front office evaluation form. "How much money did you save by not giving out multiple year contracts?"

 

I'm not ragging on you Moon. I think we think mostly alike. We appreciate value and we don't mind spending money on value.

 

Say what you will, Price FA signing, Kimbrel trade, Sale trade, Pomeranz trade, they were all bold moves by DD. I suppose we should pen the Carson Smith/Thornburg hiccups to DD but man, I don't think there were red flags on their injuries.

 

Thornburg wasn't injured at the time of the trade. He's said that his offseason throwing program with the Sox is what injured him.

[Maxbialystock]

We can "prevail" with a weak link or two, but teams in the hunt often try to improve their odds of winning, even if slightly, at the deadline.

 

We're not the favorites right now. We're not even the favorites to win the AL, and you can bet your bottom dollar the Astros, Guardians and the top NL teams will all be in the hunt for usable talent at the deadline.

 

Most teams strive to improve their weakest links, even if their weakest link is near league average.

 

3B is clearly a weakness for us- not just our weakest link. We can hope and pray that Lin/Marrero keep up their recent pace, but I feel like the odds are greatly against that happening. I was one of the last to give up on Pablo, and I hope he's not part of any plan at 3B for the second half of 2017. We might see Rutledge or Holt back to help out at 3B, but none of these guys appear to be enough to bring us near average at 3B. I'd love to see Devers get a chance, but I really think that if he hasn't been given a chance so far this year, with all the great need we've had there, why would a few more weeks suddenly make him ML ready.

 

If Sox management does plan on bringing Devers up to get a legitimate shot to win the 3B job, I hope they do it before the deadline or at least before the waiver wire deadline, so we have a chance to pick someone up before it's too late. I'm fine with standing pat, if Devers is in the 2017 plan, but if not, I'd try hard to find a deal where we do not have to overpay for a 3B rental. If none are out there, then doing nothing is not going to crush me. I DO NOT want to overpay for anyone this deadline, so maybe doing nothing is the best choice.

 

Let's see what offers are out there and go from there.

 

 

Typical. Sensible. I'm against going after our 13th or is it 14th thirdbaseman, but you do a good job of explaining why that might still happen. Thanks.

[Emp9]

Yeah, the Red Sox have to upgrade at the trade deadline. The Astros look like a dangerous team this year but the Red Sox have C.Sale and maybe the Red Sox can ride him in the playoffs. But to optimize their chances, an upgrade is a good idea. I wouldn't be overly aggressive chasing a bullpen arm--Carson Smith might be able to help out and Workman looks good in AAA. Instead, I want an offensive upgrade somewhere.

 

But I wouldn't trade Devers or Groome.

 

Astros are a fun, talented team, but they certainly have major holes in their Starting Pitching. They're also a combined 2-7 vs Bos & Cle, and they're bound to face one them come playoffs. There's also a good chance they face TB in post season and that might be a very competitive series. A 10 win total difference is nice (60 wins vs 50 wins), but they've beat up a team like Oak, went 10-2 vs Oak... so I have to slightly question the caliber of their competition. There are reasons why the team with the best record isn't always the best team. But they ARE fun and I like them. If they make a trade to upgrade their SP at the deadline I might buy in a little more.