All things Moncada

[Slasher9]

Did I quote a stat?

 

is small sample size a stat?

[a700hitter]

is small sample size a stat?

I have no idea what point you are trying to make, but I am not one who regularly rails about small sample size.

[sk7326]

the Sox usually spend close to the spending cap/LT limit. this year we went over. i dont expect that to happen again next year as they will certainly want to "reset" the penalty. to think that we have an "unlimited budget" us incorrect. the Red Sox have a budget and most of the time do not exceed that number (exception being this year as pointed out). if we didnt have "those contracts" that $$ would most certainly have been spent (up to the LT limit) but probably not over it. those that say there is no budget are being naive.....

 

They have a budget - but it is not driven by law (like a hard salary cap) ... it is not driven by affordability (nobody is going to be skipping meals) ... it is driven by how much some very rich people want to put into their plaything. I recognize the constraints you have noted - constraints which the Red Sox have chosen. I also recognize that those constraints are entirely voluntary - and thus have relatively low patience for rationalizations in that direction.

 

I respect that the Red Sox have put a ton of money into the club and the park. Given the prices they charge and the numerous monetizing opportunities they have exploited, it's the least they can do.

 

Now someone called baseball an odd duck as a business - that is because it is a business, but to the owners, it is essentially akin to owning a piece of valuable art. It provides status, it feels cool to own something you like, and you will make a killing whenever you choose to sell it.

[Eddy Ballgame]

I disagree. He struck out over 30% of the time in his roughly 200 PAs in AA ball. Thats not good. Meanwhile, Shaw has been good vs RHP and Hill has been decent vs LHP. I think Moncada should not have been given the 3B job so soon. Rather, a Shaw/Hill platoon was best, using Moncada as an occasional pinch hitter or pinch runner. He will be fine, but he badly needs plate discipline.n

 

I don't think they ever "handed him the job." They basically gave him a look because they weren't getting much production out of the position and the timing was right.

 

I also think that they were sending a not so subtle message to Travis Shaw that went something like this. "You might want to complete one full season as a productive major leaguer before you publicly whine about playing time."

[Nick]

I don't think they ever "handed him the job." They basically gave him a look because they weren't getting much production out of the position and the timing was right.

 

I also think that they were sending a not so subtle message to Travis Shaw that went something like this. "You might want to complete one full season as a productive major leaguer before you publicly whine about playing time."

 

He needs to keep his thoughts out of papers and get the job done. I'm sure he's a great guy but you have to earn your right to whine in the majors. He's got no street creditability.

[Nick]

Obviously Moncada at some point will be our 3B. But I'm not married to him at this point.

 

This is all about winning the Division. I don't care if we do it with 9 midgets. Everyone has to do whatever it takes to win every game. That has to be the mind set.

 

Pedey gets it. Everyone needs to shut up and play. Like it or not, John Farrell is commanding this team. Be smart, John.

[sk7326]

Sports teams are not run like businesses. They are run like investments. The true value of the team is not in the day to day revenue, but the overall gain of the asset. If the Sox were sold today, they'd get about $2.5B. The Sox were purchased for $660M less than 15 years ago.

 

They are businesses - but they are purchased and sold like pieces of art .. or a first edition comic (if you are into that sort of thing) ... a fun thing for a well-off (in this case exceptionally so) hobbyist to own to be able to say "dude, check this out"

[Bellhorn04]

For us baseball is fun, but for JH it's foremost a business. I have no information about the inner workings of the finances of a baseball team but in this day and age I'd BET that the Red Sox bean counters know how much money making the playoffs is worth as well as how much money every win IN the playoffs is worth to the team. And at the end of the day for JH and the other owners it's all about the money.

 

I believe that for a lot of owners it's not just all about the money. The money is crucial but the biggest rush of all is holding that championship trophy. I think Henry is one of those owners. Otherwise he might have cashed out already in one of those periods when things have been sour.

[S5Dewey]

I believe that for a lot of owners it's not just all about the money. The money is crucial but the biggest rush of all is holding that championship trophy. I think Henry is one of those owners. Otherwise he might have cashed out already in one of those periods when things have been sour.

 

I think the biggest rush is holding all that money, but at the same time holding the trophy does have a certain cache to it that can't be equaled any other way.

[Slasher9]

I think the biggest rush is holding all that money, but at the same time holding the trophy does have a certain cache to it that can't be equaled any other way.

 

you are dead on S. she didnt marry commander Data because of his trophy collection....

[Hugh2]

I disagree. He struck out over 30% of the time in his roughly 200 PAs in AA ball. That's not good. Meanwhile, Shaw has been good vs RHP and Hill has been decent vs LHP. I think Moncada should not have been given the 3B job so soon. Rather, a Shaw/Hill platoon was best, using Moncada as an occasional pinch hitter or pinch runner. He will be fine, but he badly needs plate discipline.n

 

Against RHP (which he was pretty much brought up to face) it was more like 27% but with a .966 OPS and a .400 OBP. And no Shaw has not been good vs. RHP. He's stunk against LHP all season and I was criticized by some on this board back in late may for suggesting we go after a RHH infielder who could spell him at 3B. That aside, since June 1st Shaw is batting .214/.289/.369 vs RHP for a whooping OPS of .658.

 

I'm not saying Moncada didn't look horrifying last night and that could signal he might not be any better than a pinch runner for this season. But given where you were with Shaw you absolutely made the right decision to give him a shot. We are in the middle of a pennant race for crying out loud, if you have a chance of drastically improving a position in house you give it a go.

[oldtimer]

The team was justified and made the right move giving Moncada a shot, however if he proves he's not ready then he's not ready. I wouldn't NOT start him again but at this point you at least have to sit him for the next game or two.

 

I still think worse case scenario he makes the team better as a pinch runner.

 

Really that is what JF was quoted as saying. The take on him was that he was raw defensively as a third baseman but he could hit and was very fast (base stealer). So far he has looked green, getting picked off base and a hitter with at least one major weakness hitting. The club is trying to encourage him but will sit him for a game or two to work with him on hitting a curve. The real question is when it comes time to select players for the playoffs, will it make sense to keep him as a base runner? Unless he shows more in the next couple of weeks, he may well be left out. We are in a tough pennant race. Even the Yankees seem to be making a run, so its a 4 team free for all and we need our best in every game. Will that be Shaw or Moncada, stay tuned.

[mrguit]

Not sure about Moncada yet. Looks like

he gets fooled by sliders and curves in the

dirt and the outside corners. Still yet, he could

turn into the next Jose Tartabull!!

[Spudboy]

I liked Jose Tartabul!!!!

[Maxbialystock]

Hey - I won't be giving up on this kid. Just a kid. who knows, they may even wind up moving him. He still represents the best potential baseball talent that I have seen in a Red sox uniform. Normally I would say that I can remember but I really can't remember anybody like him. Kimi once used the word Hater in reference to those who made fun of Sandoval. Not sure I totally buy that but she had a point. Anyone nastily critical of a 21 year kid is a hater. Particularly one with this much talent. He may not be ready just yet but he will be some day. I hope for our sake it is in a Red Sox uniform.

 

Thanks for saying that because it allows me to say the following.

 

His talent is undeniable. But four things right now worry me. 1. His enormous lack of experience in professional baseball. 2. Moving him up to MLB while bypassing AAA, then, after he arrives and plays 4 or 5 games, Farrell basically saying Moncada owns 3B and Shaw needs to learn to play the OF. That was stupid. 3. The huge amount of publicity he receives as the #1 prospect in MLB. After his first game ESPN featured a video of him running the bases with the caption "19.5mph." 4. The for him enormous amount of money he has already been paid.

 

To me all four things point in the same direction. They are telling Moncada that this game is easy, he's got it made, and that the last thing he needs to do is work on his game. So in that context I think the 10 strikeouts in 17 at bats were the best thing that could happen to him. If nothing else, he might now realize he does indeed have trouble with the curve. Ditto the rest day today (and tomorrow). Ditto getting picked off 1B--badly.

[Emp9]

Could it also be that we're all a little spoiled by XB, Beni, & especially Betts. In a way you could throw Shaw in on that list as well. I'm not that down on his first 4-5 game performance. I know calling up a top prospect is supposed to have some kind of happy ever after feeling to it, but in reality it's just the beginning of the story. I knew he'd K a ton. I still love calling him up. It's a game of adjustments. He needs to know first hand what he'll be up against. I hope we give him as long a leash as a pennant race provides at this point and he still focuses on his defense. Having him around to PR in the post season would nice too. I said this about JBJ way back when, whether or not you agree he deserved to be promoted, he earned the look. Can't fault anyone for that.

[cp176]

Thanks for saying that because it allows me to say the following.

 

His talent is undeniable. But four things right now worry me. 1. His enormous lack of experience in professional baseball. 2. Moving him up to MLB while bypassing AAA, then, after he arrives and plays 4 or 5 games, Farrell basically saying Moncada owns 3B and Shaw needs to learn to play the OF. That was stupid. 3. The huge amount of publicity he receives as the #1 prospect in MLB. After his first game ESPN featured a video of him running the bases with the caption "19.5mph." 4. The for him enormous amount of money he has already been paid.

 

To me all four things point in the same direction. They are telling Moncada that this game is easy, he's got it made, and that the last thing he needs to do is work on his game. So in that context I think the 10 strikeouts in 17 at bats were the best thing that could happen to him. If nothing else, he might now realize he does indeed have trouble with the curve. Ditto the rest day today (and tomorrow). Ditto getting picked off 1B--badly.

 

That is management's problem not Moncada's. From everything that I have read, it sounds as though he is a hard working kid.

you are suggesting that he suffers from a lack of focus and that he does not work hard enough. How do you know this? I think that you are wrong.

[cp176]

Could it also be that we're all a little spoiled by XB, Beni, & especially Betts. In a way you could throw Shaw in on that list as well. I'm not that down on his first 4-5 game performance. I know calling up a top prospect is supposed to have some kind of happy ever after feeling to it, but in reality it's just the beginning of the story. I knew he'd K a ton. I still love calling him up. It's a game of adjustments. He needs to know first hand what he'll be up against. I hope we give him as long a leash as a pennant race provides at this point and he still focuses on his defense. Having him around to PR in the post season would nice too. I said this about JBJ way back when, whether or not you agree he deserved to be promoted, he earned the look. Can't fault anyone for that.

 

I'm not spoiled by the play of Bogaerts, Betts or Shaw at all. i'm just happy that they play for us. I'm not quite ready yet to put Benintendi in with that group. I like Shaw a great deal. his power potential alone makes him very valuable. I don't know what to make of Moncada just yet. If and I mean if, he develops the potential that he has athletically, he could very easily move to the top of this list. I'm glad that you are not down on him. No one should be. Being upset I guess with management for putting him in the position that he is in I guess is a possibly.

[oldtimer]

I'm not spoiled by the play of Bogaerts, Betts or Shaw at all. i'm just happy that they play for us. I'm not quite ready yet to put Benintendi in with that group. I like Shaw a great deal. his power potential alone makes him very valuable. I don't know what to make of Moncada just yet. If and I mean if, he develops the potential that he has athletically, he could very easily move to the top of this list. I'm glad that you are not down on him. No one should be. Being upset I guess with management for putting him in the position that he is in I guess is a possibly.

 

Moncada may find himself blocked by Shaw this year if Shaw bounces back as he did last night. Still for next year with Hanley going to DH there is room for both.

[moonslav59]

Remember, before Moncada's last game, his numbers were decent and people were happy he was up and playing. Now, after one horrible game, the tone has changed dramatically. You'd think after witnessing quick-turning tides on sites like this for years, I'd be able to accept the fickle nature of many people, but I can't. I just don't get it. Had Moncada gone 2 for 4 in his last game, there'd be a whole different discussion. Shouldn't that make us examine our thought process a little more?

 

Old timer's right, even with about 6-8 guys (HanRam, Moncada, Shaw, Pablo, Swihart, Hernandez, Travis and even Young at DH) fighting for the 3 slots next year (DH, 1B and 3B), there's plenty of room for Moncada and Shaw. Just do well, and you'll be playing on a regular basis.

 

 

 

[sk7326]

Thanks for saying that because it allows me to say the following.

 

His talent is undeniable. But four things right now worry me. 1. His enormous lack of experience in professional baseball. 2. Moving him up to MLB while bypassing AAA, then, after he arrives and plays 4 or 5 games, Farrell basically saying Moncada owns 3B and Shaw needs to learn to play the OF. That was stupid. 3. The huge amount of publicity he receives as the #1 prospect in MLB. After his first game ESPN featured a video of him running the bases with the caption "19.5mph." 4. The for him enormous amount of money he has already been paid.

 

To me all four things point in the same direction. They are telling Moncada that this game is easy, he's got it made, and that the last thing he needs to do is work on his game. So in that context I think the 10 strikeouts in 17 at bats were the best thing that could happen to him. If nothing else, he might now realize he does indeed have trouble with the curve. Ditto the rest day today (and tomorrow). Ditto getting picked off 1B--badly.

 

All it says is that the craft is behind the athleticism - which is totally fine. It also means wait until the craft catches up ...

[sk7326]

Remember, before Moncada's last game, his numbers were decent and people were happy he was up and playing. Now, after one horrible game, the tone has changed dramatically. You'd think after witnessing quick-turning tides on sites like this for years, I'd be able to accept the fickle nature of many people, but I can't. I just don't get it. Had Moncada gone 2 for 4 in his last game, there'd be a whole different discussion. Shouldn't that make us examine our thought process a little more?

 

Old timer's right, even with about 6-8 guys (HanRam, Moncada, Shaw, Pablo, Swihart, Hernandez, Travis and even Young at DH) fighting for the 3 slots next year (DH, 1B and 3B), there's plenty of room for Moncada and Shaw. Just do well, and you'll be playing on a regular basis.

 

 

 

 

It's 7 straight K's - which is a small sample, but reflective of the issues predicted when he was promoted. His failure - if it actually does not get better - means nothing for his future projections. It just means that the notion Benintendi was ahead of him in line was sound, and that friends don't let friends use minor league stat lines as conclusive proof of anything.

[moonslav59]

It's 7 straight K's - which is a small sample, but reflective of the issues predicted when he was promoted. His failure - if it actually does not get better - means nothing for his future projections. It just means that the notion Benintendi was ahead of him in line was sound, and that friends don't let friends use minor league stat lines as conclusive proof of anything.

 

LOL. Well said.

 

I will add that the Beni sample size is also too small to know if he actually was ahead of Yoan or not.

[sk7326]

LOL. Well said.

 

I will add that the Beni sample size is also too small to know if he actually was ahead of Yoan or not.

 

Of course - but the reason he was ahead (I reckon) comes in the scouting ... and in the very small sample, you can see (with your eyes - see, that's me talking about the mental part of the game!) there is just a lot more craft in what Benintendi does. There is a reason he has been promoted super aggressively - and it is because he can handle it.

[moonslav59]

Of course - but the reason he was ahead (I reckon) comes in the scouting ... and in the very small sample, you can see (with your eyes - see, that's me talking about the mental part of the game!) there is just a lot more craft in what Benintendi does. There is a reason he has been promoted super aggressively - and it is because he can handle it.

 

He could have also been "ahead" because we needed a LF'er before we needed a 3Bman.

[sk7326]

He could have also been "ahead" because we needed a LF'er before we needed a 3Bman.

 

I don't necessarily agree - because the team did not "need" either. The Sox had been the top offense in the league by a good margin all season. Both of those positions could have been patchworked without derailing the party - especially with Leon's Ivan Rodriguez impersonation at the plate. I think they legitimately believed Benintendi could/would be one of their four best outfielders.

[Maxbialystock]

That is management's problem not Moncada's. From everything that I have read, it sounds as though he is a hard working kid.

you are suggesting that he suffers from a lack of focus and that he does not work hard enough. How do you know this? I think that you are wrong.

 

Actually, I didn't quite say he does not work hard enough. I said four things--lack of experience, moving up to MLB quickly and then getting the starting 3B job, all the adulation in the press, and the big upfront money he got last year--are telling him he doesn't have to work hard. I have read nothing about his work habits, good or bad, so I don't honestly know. The lack of focus comment came from narrative on him in Sox Prospects and referred I think to grounders hit right at him.

 

I think your point about management is well taken. They are indeed responsible for his development because we know he has talent. I thought the announcement that Shaw needed to work on his OF skills was a big mistake because it also told Moncada he had it made. In 2013 they did not take that approach with Bogaerts, and this year they did not do it with Benintendi.

[cp176]

i'm probably a little defensive simply because athletically he is a long way ahead of any other prospect plus it is a very good story. My take on him though is that from a work perspective, i have not seen nor have I heard one thing that tells me that he isn't just a very coachable hard working player. He bought a few toys with his new money. I don't blame him at all. I don't think that the fact that he has not gotten it done in his debut has anything to do with a lack of focus or a failure to work hard. I hate the not so subtle comparisons to Benintendi that people are trying to make. Beni is quite a ways ahead of Moncada evidently with respect to his hitting. They are two different types of players entirely. I'm glad. Moncada is very happy for him. When Benintendi was moved up and Moncada stayed in Portland the press as they so often do tried to make a story out of it. Non story. Moncada has been nothing but happy for Benintendi. My bet is that he will continue to work hard as he has and if the planets align we may see a powerful fast very good player some day in a Red Sox uniform. We are fortunate to have both of these kids at least for the time being.

[Slasher9]

[Slasher9]