All things Moncada

[cp176]

But we overbid the Yankees by 20%, and the other offer might have been $26 million. I realize that this is pennies to the Red Sox. My main point is that they were willing to spend $60+ million on this kid, but offered Lester ony $70 million. That just strikes me as stupid.

 

I like this discussion. Really valid points of view coming from both sides. I have felt for a long time that the Red Sox were lukewarm about paying Lester to bring him back for whatever reasons. I think that we are glad that we have Moncada. IMO, The Red Sox have a "nearly" limitless budget. They have thrown around a lot of money that did not bring back dividends over the years. Maybe they got lucky this time around.

[a700hitter]

Lester and Moncada are completely different issues.

Lester is a talent retention call. Moncada is a talent recruitment call.

 

Red Sox didn't feel that Lester was worth top dollar. IE he's not worth paying as an ace.

They gave him an insulting offer and ended up losing him.

So... they went out and offered real ace money to David Price.

 

Could we use Jon Lester right now? Probably. But if Lester is still a Red Sox, chances are David Price is not. Opportunity cost.

Honestly I'm more disappointed in the money we blew on Rusney Castillo and Pablo Sandoval than the Price vs Lester decision.

Paying more for an arguably better quality pitcher is fine.

However I'm not sure I see any way we can unload Castillo or Pandoval without taking serious monetary losses.

Yes, Pablo and Rusney are probably the best examples of really stupid overspending. Rusney is still the highest priced Cuban defector acquisition. We are getting 0 for $72 million, and Pablo was cheap by the pound I guess. I don't have any problem with getting Moncado. It is quite the opposite. I am thrilled to have him. I am just not going to heap adulation on the FO for it's shrewdness when they make as many terrible big deals as they make great ones.

[User Name]

What about the current young offensive core of this team?

[Nick]

Lester debacle is history. You learn from it and move forward.

 

Sox as orgainzation is in great place right now. We have under team control, all nine projected starting position players for 2017-2019. We have all of our starters under team control for next two years. Bullpen needs work but we've faced bigger problems.

 

Despite young talent at major league level, our farm system still has some high level prospects. And there's time for them to be developed properly. There's no rush any longer.

 

We hold the cards. We can wait and make good trades, not out of desperation.

[Kimmi]

I am thrilled to have the kid, and I don't care how much money they spent on him, but throwing kudos at a FO for business acumen for throwing money around and overpaying is another issue. If that is the standard, then the Yankee FO up until a couple of years ago must have been the smartest FO of all time.

 

And yet you throw kudos at Dombrowski for signing Price.

[a700hitter]

And yet you throw kudos at Dombrowski for signing Price.

No, I do not.

[cp176]

sports.yahoo.com/news/the-education-of-yoan-moncada-201005541.html

 

A great story if you haven't already read it. A "poor man's" Mike Trout - I can live with that.

[Dojji]

We are engaging in (what I deem to be) some interesting Red Sox baseball discussion in this, a Red Sox baseball discussion site. Analysis of the effectiveness of this FO's spending habits is welcome discussion IMO.

 

VJCsmoke's position is also valid to that discussion and does not need to be belittled or contradicted.

[Spudboy]

We'll never know exactly what happened with the Lester negotiations. What we do know is that they are stand-alone moves, and as stupid as the Lester offer was, the Moncada signing has the makings of an excellent acquisition.

 

Or another waste of money.

[Dojji]

I am just not going to heap adulation on the FO for it's shrewdness when they make as many terrible big deals as they make great ones.

 

There isn't a FO in history that doesn't have plenty of boondoggles. The only FO that doesn't have expensive failures, is the FO that doesn't take big risks to improve its team. That kind of FO is generally content with years of losing to build up a roster through the draft. We should be grateful that our ownership is as willing to write the checks and eat the failures as it is, it's the willingness to fail in the drive to succeed that leads to the team being as good as it is, as often as it is.

[a700hitter]

VJCsmoke's position is also valid to that discussion and does not need to be belittled or contradicted.

LOL!! I think that U.N.'s post was extremely polite. Have you seen his posts when he is intentionally sarcastic?

[Dojji]

Or another waste of money.

 

Nothing Moncada has done to this point is indicating that he is a waste of money. There's being realistic, and then there's being a negative Nancy. I'd say this reply is clearly over that line.

[Dojji]

LOL!! I think that U.N.'s post was extremely polite. Have you seen his posts when he is intentionally sarcastic?

 

Oh UN was being polite, I agree. He was also out of line. VJSmoke's post didn't rate that level of pushback at all.

[a700hitter]

There isn't a FO in history that doesn't have plenty of boondoggles. The only FO that doesn't have expensive failures, is the FO that doesn't take big risks to improve its team. That kind of FO is generally content with years of losing to build up a roster through the draft. We should be grateful that our ownership is as willing to write the checks and eat the failures as it is, it's the willingness to fail in the drive to succeed that leads to the team being as good as it is, as often as it is.

I don't think our FO is necessarily any worse than any other FO. I have been on record about my lack of regard for the business acumen of baseball executives in general.

[a700hitter]

Oh UN was being polite, I agree. He was also out of line. VJSmoke's post didn't rate that level of pushback at all.

Point of Order, please!

[Spudboy]

Nothing Moncada has done to this point is indicating that he is a waste of money. There's being realistic, and then there's being a negative Nancy. I'd say this reply is clearly over that line.

 

********.

 

They spent $63. mil on a kid with very little experience at high level ball.

 

After the can't miss hype of Castillo my comment is justified.

 

Besides, one injury and poof, he's gone.

 

I say pay for proven talent.

[StephenCurry30]

proven talent like pablo sandoval?

[moonslav59]

We'll never know exactly what happened with the Lester negotiations. What we do know is that they are stand-alone moves, and as stupid as the Lester offer was, the Moncada signing has the makings of an excellent acquisition.

 

Agreed.

 

I think what some people are forgetting is that Lester had mentioned he'd be willing to take a "hometown discount". When you look at the deal Pedey took as a "hometown discount", one might think in this context, the original offer to Lester was not as absurd as it looked on the surface. I'm not defending the offer. It clearly was a low ball offer. Too low to not be viewed as disrespectful. Where I think they went wrong, and I'm only speculating, is that they should have quickly followed up their initial offer with something much more appealing. Maybe even that would have been too late, as the first offer left its mark.

 

Does anyone doubt that Lester would have accepted the Sox final offer (when Lester was in free agency) day one?

 

That then begs the next question: had we signed Lester, would Price be here now?

 

And also, if we had signed Lester, would we have signed both Pablo and HanRam?

Edited September 4, 2016 by moonslav59

[a700hitter]

Agreed.

 

I think what some people are forgetting is that Lester had mentioned he'd be willing to take a "hometown discount". When you look at the deal Pedey took as a "hometown discount", one might think in this context, the original offer to Lester was not as absurd as it looked on the surface. I'm not defending the offer. It clearly was a low ball offer. Too low to not be viewed as disrespectful. Where I think they went wrong, and I'm only speculating, is that they should have quickly followed up their initial offer with something much more appealing. Maybe even that would have been too late, as the first offer left its mark.

He didn't say that he was willing to accept a Home town insult.

[moonslav59]

All big signings are gambles.

 

The biggest signings in MLB have largely been failures or have fallen well short of expectations across the board.

 

We missed on Castillo but my have hit pay dirt with Moncada.

 

We missed with Crawford and Pablo and come up short with HanRam.

 

We may have hit with Price.

 

What has risen above all these signings was the massive build up of top quality prospects that have not only strengthened our current roster, but also allowed us to acquire top players by trading some of them.

 

Betts

Bogaerts

Bradley

Moncada

Beninetndi

Devers

Groome

Kopech

Dubon

Dalbec

Basabe

S Travis

Hernandez

Johnson

 

Prospects and young players traded away:

Margot

Guerra

L Allen

Basabe

P Light

W Rijo

 

Longer ago...

de la Rosa & Webster (for Miley who morphed into Smith)

Ranaudo (for R Ross)

Doubront (for Marco Hernandez)

Middlebrooks (for Hanigan)

Iggy (for Peavy who morphed into Hembree)

Lars Anderson (for Steven Wright)

Rizzo & Kelly (for AGon)

Reddick (for Bailey)

 

 

 

[moonslav59]

He didn't say that he was willing to accept a Home town insult.

 

Agreed, but it's all relative. I think the offer to Pedey was insulting. He didn't.

[User Name]

VJCsmoke's position is also valid to that discussion and does not need to be belittled or contradicted.

 

Do you actually know how to read? What I'm saying is that the discussion we were having is is valid. I did not belittle his opinion in any way, shape or form. He was whining about our discussion. Think before you post.

[Maxbialystock]

Sox paid a lot of money for two bonehead plays in about 10 minutes--blew an easy grounder right to him and then got picked off at 1B and it wasn't even close.

 

He's clearly a great athlete with real talent, but the write up in Sox Prospects says he has a problem focusing.

[User Name]

Oh UN was being polite, I agree. He was also out of line. VJSmoke's post didn't rate that level of pushback at all.

 

Seriously, you need some reading comprehension classes.

[oldtimer]

Sox paid a lot of money for two bonehead plays in about 10 minutes--blew an easy grounder right to him and then got picked off at 1B and it wasn't even close.

 

He's clearly a great athlete with real talent, but the write up in Sox Prospects says he has a problem focusing.

 

He is young and has been brought up because he is a very good hitting prospect. We have to expect some rough edges as he develops and gets grounded. He should learn from getting picked off, the error situation however may take longer to resolve. Comparing him to some ideal is a little unfair, he is in for Shaw and Hill who just were not helping the team offensively and Hill was just okay defensively.

[moonslav59]

He is young and has been brought up because he is a very good hitting prospect. We have to expect some rough edges as he develops and gets grounded. He should learn from getting picked off, the error situation however may take longer to resolve. Comparing him to some ideal is a little unfair, he is in for Shaw and Hill who just were not helping the team offensively and Hill was just okay defensively.

 

True. It's all about comparative analysis. Shaw's D at 3B is slightly below average. Hill's is about average, so even taking a hit on defense at 3B by playing Moncada over these two may not be significant enough to weigh down the expected gain on offense.

[southpaw777]

Sox paid a lot of money for two bonehead plays in about 10 minutes--blew an easy grounder right to him and then got picked off at 1B and it wasn't even close.

 

He's clearly a great athlete with real talent, but the write up in Sox Prospects says he has a problem focusing.

 

Hes played about 100 professional games at 20-21...he will be fine. Its not so much the mistakes as it is how he responds to them. He has work to do defensively and everyone knew that. His bat was/is his calling card. He's only been playing there a couple weeks, so Im not concerned at all...

[Maxbialystock]

Interesting how people leap to Moncada's defense. Look, I know he is the #1 rated prospect in MLB. My point is that he is also a rookie and a raw rookie at that. If there is a rationale for the minors, including AAA, it is for young players to learn and work on their weaknesses before they get to the Show.

 

As I pointed out, Sox Prospects talks at length about his speed, strong arm, swing, etc. But it also says he tends to lose focus, and we are already seeing that in spades. Bogaerts, I hasten to add, was completely focused from the day he got here. As talented as he is, determination may be his strongest suit. And Betts is in the same category--talented and determined. My guess would be that the Orioles Machado was the same way when he came up.

 

Let's hope the determination part rubs off on Moncada, but it won't be easy because he already has some big money and a lot of adulation from the press.

[a700hitter]

Agreed, but it's all relative. I think the offer to Pedey was insulting. He didn't.

I am glad that you are not his agent. MVP, thinks Pedey is overpaid.

[Spudboy]

Interesting how people leap to Moncada's defense. Look, I know he is the #1 rated prospect in MLB. My point is that he is also a rookie and a raw rookie at that. If there is a rationale for the minors, including AAA, it is for young players to learn and work on their weaknesses before they get to the Show.

 

As I pointed out, Sox Prospects talks at length about his speed, strong arm, swing, etc. But it also says he tends to lose focus, and we are already seeing that in spades. Bogaerts, I hasten to add, was completely focused from the day he got here. As talented as he is, determination may be his strongest suit. And Betts is in the same category--talented and determined. My guess would be that the Orioles Machado was the same way when he came up.

 

Let's hope the determination part rubs off on Moncada, but it won't be easy because he already has some big money and a lot of adulation from the press.

 

 

And it could be that he is another highly athletic player from Cuba that is just not ready for the responsibilities of MLB ball.

 

Although he has seemed to adapt to the materialistic aspect of stardom now that he drives a Lamborghini.

 

I'm not surprised that his game is unpolished. It's not like he has had the opportunities to play and to be coached as with Benintendi. They are about the same age yet one is clearly a much more finished product with about the same pro service time.

 

I' am curious to see how Mocada hits. He has had about one full season of at bats in the pros.

 

During an interview for ESPN's 30/30 on Michael Jordan's attempt at pro baseball, Terry Francona said that if age and the NBA were not considerations, Jordan would have become a Major League player. As Francona saw it, it takes a player a solid 1200 AB in pro ball to become ready for MLB. I trust Francona. He knows more about baseball and player development than anyone here.

 

Benintendi saw much more quality pitching in college. I also assume that he is just a more advanced talent than Moncada.

 

If Moncada rakes near term my points are moot. If he is less than stellar, it could be because he needs more time in the minors.