A Realistic View at 2016

[cp176]

True. But so do all the other AL teams.

 

I should have been more specific. I don't care about the other teams. As good as we seem to look statistically, there is something or someone missing that needs to be there to push a team over the top. In my world, everything does not get statistically dictated. There are intangibles that cannot be measured. i believe that some players perform better in tough situations than others. I believe that some players do not tend to come through when needed most even when the stats say they should. I believe that good teams learn to do what it takes to win in situations that it appears that they cannot win in. As much as I enjoy watching this team, i think that they are soft. Hope I am wrong but I don't think that they have a tough enough edge to win at the highest level just yet.

[cp176]

Yaz did everything a player can do to almost single-handedly lead his team into the playoff.

 

Papi has done the same in the post season.

 

 

Don't get me wrong - I love Papi - My opinion - No one has ever done what Yaz did in 1967.

[Eddy Ballgame]

I don't disagree, but if Moncada's bat is ML ready, and we haven't signed Encarnacion, I'd be fine with Moncada DH'ing FT until he masters a position.

 

He's not going to master a position by DHing. I think a lot of fans think that "any player" can DH, but the fact is, most players couldn't do it on a regular basis. It's not as easy as people think.

Also, they are definitely not going to take a 5 tool kid like Moncada and risk his development by DHing him, just to get his bat in the line-up. It's just not going to happen. I don't think any team would ever consider it, but especially a team like Boston, who invests millions on players preparing them for the mental aspect of the game.

[Nick]

He's not going to master a position by DHing. I think a lot of fans think that "any player" can DH, but the fact is, most players couldn't do it on a regular basis. It's not as easy as people think.

Also, they are definitely not going to take a 5 tool kid like Moncada and risk his development by DHing him, just to get his bat in the line-up. It's just not going to happen. I don't think any team would ever consider it, but especially a team like Boston, who invests millions on players preparing them for the mental aspect of the game.

 

He'll do whatever the hell the Sox tell him to do. Sox spent $60 M....if DH is a position of need , then that's what he'll do.

[Eddy Ballgame]

He'll do whatever the hell the Sox tell him to do. Sox spent $60 M....if DH is a position of need , then that's what he'll do.

 

Haha...Ok. The next time a team takes a young 5 tool player and makes him a DH because it's "a position of need" will be never. It's never happened before and never will.

[Nick]

Haha...Ok. The next time a team takes a young 5 tool player and makes him a DH because it's "a position of need" will be never. It's never happened before and never will.

 

You were probably in that group that wanted Benintendi to experience 500 plate appearances at AAA. This is the same Sox organization that went out and got has been SS and moved Xander to 3B which shattered his already bruised self confidence.

[Eddy Ballgame]

You were probably in that group that wanted Benintendi to experience 500 plate appearances at AAA. This is the same Sox organization that went out and got has been SS and moved Xander to 3B which shattered his already bruised self confidence.

 

Nope. Bentintendi's not here to DH. He's playing a position they see him playing in the future, and make no mistake about it, this situation isn't ideal. He's here out of necessity.

By the way, they learned a lesson with the Bogaerts to 3rd situation. You don't take young players with super star potential and stick them in a spot where they don't want to be. Sox GM Mike Hazen referenced Bogaerts specifically when he discussed Moncada.

Edited August 5, 2016 by Eddy Ballgame

[moonslav59]

I should have been more specific. I don't care about the other teams. As good as we seem to look statistically, there is something or someone missing that needs to be there to push a team over the top. In my world, everything does not get statistically dictated. There are intangibles that cannot be measured. i believe that some players perform better in tough situations than others. I believe that some players do not tend to come through when needed most even when the stats say they should. I believe that good teams learn to do what it takes to win in situations that it appears that they cannot win in. As much as I enjoy watching this team, i think that they are soft. Hope I am wrong but I don't think that they have a tough enough edge to win at the highest level just yet.

 

I don't disagree, but we do have one intangible: Big Papi.

[moonslav59]

Don't get me wrong - I love Papi - My opinion - No one has ever done what Yaz did in 1967.

 

That was a magical season.

 

I'm not rying to put down Yaz by pumping up Pap, but you have to admit, no one has ever done what Papi has done either.

[moonslav59]

He's not going to master a position by DHing. I think a lot of fans think that "any player" can DH, but the fact is, most players couldn't do it on a regular basis. It's not as easy as people think.

Also, they are definitely not going to take a 5 tool kid like Moncada and risk his development by DHing him, just to get his bat in the line-up. It's just not going to happen. I don't think any team would ever consider it, but especially a team like Boston, who invests millions on players preparing them for the mental aspect of the game.

 

5 tool players don't always become plus fielders. I don't like the idea of DH'ing Moncada either, but I have the feeling it's going to take longer than many think it will for him to become an average fielder at 3B. He hasn't even become good enough at 2B yet.

[moonslav59]

Haha...Ok. The next time a team takes a young 5 tool player and makes him a DH because it's "a position of need" will be never. It's never happened before and never will.

 

It's not just about positional need. Until Moncada becomes a better fielder than Shaw at 3B, he won't be our starting 3Bman. He's not going to be our 2Bman either, unless we trade Pedey (not happening).

 

He may learn LF, but that along with 3B, that may take him a year or more to learn sufficiently, if his 2B pace is any indication.

 

Yeah, I agree, it makes little sense to put a "five tool" guy at DH, but I'm noy sure the fielding "tool" is going to come to fruition for quite some time, so there's conflict with the other bid no-no in MLB: you don't keep a great hitter down on the farm forever, just because he's taking too long to master a position well enough to win one.

 

[Eddy Ballgame]

It's not just about positional need. Until Moncada becomes a better fielder than Shaw at 3B, he won't be our starting 3Bman. He's not going to be our 2Bman either, unless we trade Pedey (not happening).

 

He may learn LF, but that along with 3B, that may take him a year or more to learn sufficiently, if his 2B pace is any indication.

 

Yeah, I agree, it makes little sense to put a "five tool" guy at DH, but I'm noy sure the fielding "tool" is going to come to fruition for quite some time, so there's conflict with the other bid no-no in MLB: you don't keep a great hitter down on the farm forever, just because he's taking too long to master a position well enough to win one.

 

 

They aren't going to wait until he "masters" a position to bring him up. If they think he's ready to be the player that they think he will be offensively, he'll play third. Unless he's a complete sieve, they'll let him take some lumps on the job. He's not tied to Shaw and whether or not he's a better fielder is irrelevant.

This kid is special. He'll play a position in the field every day or he'll be in Pawtucket. They won't DH him. Again, Dhing isn't nearly as easy as fans think, and the Sox aren't going to risk screwing with this kid to get his bat in the line-up.

I get your point about keeping a kid with his skillset down forever, but you find a position for him or you trade him, but making him a DH would never happen.

[cp176]

That was a magical season.

 

I'm not rying to put down Yaz by pumping up Pap, but you have to admit, no one has ever done what Papi has done either.

 

I'll agree with that.

[cp176]

They'll trade Moncada before they dh him. They'll get their dh but I don't see it as a position that a motley crew of players will share. Shaw, Swihart, Travis,Benintendi, Vazquez, Leon, etc. etc. etc. Trade will happen. Good news about Moncada is that he has a great attitude and would do just what they want him to. Thinking that he is going to dh though is just as ridiculous as thinking that bringing up Benintendi to anchor a position on the bench everytime a lefty pitches makes any sense at all. Oh wait - that is what it looks like they are going to do.

[oldtimer]

I should have been more specific. I don't care about the other teams. As good as we seem to look statistically, there is something or someone missing that needs to be there to push a team over the top. In my world, everything does not get statistically dictated. There are intangibles that cannot be measured. i believe that some players perform better in tough situations than others. I believe that some players do not tend to come through when needed most even when the stats say they should. I believe that good teams learn to do what it takes to win in situations that it appears that they cannot win in. As much as I enjoy watching this team, i think that they are soft. Hope I am wrong but I don't think that they have a tough enough edge to win at the highest level just yet.

 

Pedey is the toughest guy on the team.

[southpaw777]

You were probably in that group that wanted Benintendi to experience 500 plate appearances at AAA. This is the same Sox organization that went out and got has been SS and moved Xander to 3B which shattered his already bruised self confidence.

 

Different GM so you cant make that comparison...and hes right...no team would take a guy like Moncada and DH him as a regular to get him Abs...thats counterproductive to his development. Hes not saying YM wont play where they tell him, hes saying NO TEAM would do that to a kid like moncada...i agree it was the wrong move to bring Drew back, but that "has been"SS batted at a 777OPS the year before to help them win a WSC.

Edited August 5, 2016 by southpaw777

[southpaw777]

5 tool players don't always become plus fielders. I don't like the idea of DH'ing Moncada either, but I have the feeling it's going to take longer than many think it will for him to become an average fielder at 3B. He hasn't even become good enough at 2B yet.

 

Just like you thought with Bogaerts at SS?

Hes already an average fielder from all reports. He needs work, but dont discount his ability to learn like you did Bogey.

[Bellhorn04]

That was a magical season.

 

I'm not rying to put down Yaz by pumping up Pap, but you have to admit, no one has ever done what Papi has done either.

 

No Red Sox player has ever performed in the postseason like Papi.

[User Name]

Why is Moncada to DH even a conversation right now? That is ridiculous.

[Bellhorn04]

It sounds like the plan is Moncada to 3B, so Shaw would be moved to 1B or traded.

[Nick]

If Pablo is simply let go and someone picks him up for league minimum, does his salary count for Red Sox luxury tax?

[Emp9]

I don't disagree, but if Moncada's bat is ML ready, and we haven't signed Encarnacion, I'd be fine with Moncada DH'ing FT until he masters a position.

 

Have a hunch our 2017 DH will be a mixture of HanRam/Shaw(if not traded)/Panda. Moncada has prior 3B experience, & I read this morning Sox Org may not feel it neccessary for Moncada to play 3B in a game before being promoted. His pregame work at 3B may be enough. Working on things he knows, but also on things he's never actually worked on and they're fine-tuning his footwork. Exciting times... not because I think either Beni or Moncada will be the next Trout, but just on the basis that the caliber of homegrown position players we'll be putting on the field for years to come is just amazing. Even HanRam is technically homegrown. Longterm, if we find away to drop some payroll from some bad FA/International signings & work on our pitching staff, we cld be a great team for a long time.

[illinoisredsox]

If Pablo is simply let go and someone picks him up for league minimum, does his salary count for Red Sox luxury tax?

 

Pretty sure it does. It's one reason Craig and Castillo are stashed at Pawtucket and off the 40 man. If they were released and ended up on another team's roster, the salary difference counts for the Red Sox.

Edited August 5, 2016 by illinoisredsox

[greenwell]

Anyone know who has the highest Avg in the AL for players with over 100 ABs and who has the second lowest. Here's a hint, they both play C for the redsox.

 

Is Dan Butler a bad fielder, he's hitting well in Pawtucket, would definitely be an offensive improvement over Hanigan.

[sk7326]

It's not just about positional need. Until Moncada becomes a better fielder than Shaw at 3B, he won't be our starting 3Bman. He's not going to be our 2Bman either, unless we trade Pedey (not happening).

 

He may learn LF, but that along with 3B, that may take him a year or more to learn sufficiently, if his 2B pace is any indication.

 

Yeah, I agree, it makes little sense to put a "five tool" guy at DH, but I'm noy sure the fielding "tool" is going to come to fruition for quite some time, so there's conflict with the other bid no-no in MLB: you don't keep a great hitter down on the farm forever, just because he's taking too long to master a position well enough to win one.

 

 

There is a reason that second basemen look more like Dustin Pedroia and less like Dez Bryant. Even when they signed him, there was very little chance he was going to stay in the middle infield. He was big and jacked as a 19 year old. His likely outcome was always going to be at a corner. The Sox (smartly) kept him in the middle because that is where you start any good athlete while you figure out their true level.

[Nick]

SEATTLE — Those looking for clarity from Drew Pomeranz on Thursday night were likely disappointed.

In his fourth start for Red Sox, Pomeranz remains a bit of a mystery. A cursory glance at the box score from Boston's 3-2 win over Seattle Thursday tells you two runs on four hits over six innings — a line the Sox will take nine times out of 10. But if Pomeranz pitched better than his stats his last time out in Anaheim, he was on the other side of that on Thursday.

Pomeranz had command issues from the get-go, as shown by the leadoff walk he issued to Guillermo Heredia in the first. He had problems locating his curveball early and his fastball later.

Pomeranz walked six Mariners, albeit the last of them intentional. Three came in the fourth inning, which he managed to escape unscathed with a bases-loaded groundout from Leonys Martin.

"He was erratic, obviously, with the number of walks issued," manager John Farrell said. "When he was in the strike zone, it was very good stuff. The one thing he didn't do, particularly to guys in the middle of the order, he didn't give in in certain counts."

"I don't mind walking guys as long as I don't give up runs," said Pomeranz. "I was just missing a little bit. They were pretty patient on some of my curveballs."

The one inning the Mariners got to him was the fifth. Shawn O'Malley pounced on a first-pitch changeup — the second and final change Pomeranz threw Thursday, and the one pitch he said he regretted — for a leadoff home run. Heredia followed with Seattle's second bunt single of the night, and he scored the tying run on Dae-ho Lee's two-out sinking line drive to right.

Pomeranz was inefficient for most of the night, requiring at least 18 pitches in four of his six innings. In his four starts with the Sox, the lefty is averaging close to 18 pitches per inning and nearly four pitches per plate appearance.

He did finish the evening strong, recording his first 1-2-3 inning of the game in the sixth.

 

I supported the trade but he's been a disappointment....another freaking Clay Buchholtz. I don't mind walking guys as long as they don't score? Is he that stupid? At some point they will score. Does he really think he's so different from 6000 major league pitchers that's ever pitched? He's lucky to go 6 innings, wearing out our bullpen. Why are modern day pitchers such whimps?

Edited August 5, 2016 by Nick

[moonslav59]

They aren't going to wait until he "masters" a position to bring him up. If they think he's ready to be the player that they think he will be offensively, he'll play third. Unless he's a complete sieve, they'll let him take some lumps on the job. He's not tied to Shaw and whether or not he's a better fielder is irrelevant.

This kid is special. He'll play a position in the field every day or he'll be in Pawtucket. They won't DH him. Again, Dhing isn't nearly as easy as fans think, and the Sox aren't going to risk screwing with this kid to get his bat in the line-up.

I get your point about keeping a kid with his skillset down forever, but you find a position for him or you trade him, but making him a DH would never happen.

 

There also not going to move Shaw to 1b and Ramirez to DH, if Shaw and HanRam are better fielders than Moncada.

 

That was my point.

 

Yes, there are scenarios where playing Moncada at 3B and maybe Young at DH vs LHPs is the best line-up, but I don't see us using HanRam or Shaw at DH, and Moncada at 3B, if they are better fielders than him. My opinion, and it's just an opinion based on what I have read about Moncada's fielding, is that Moncada may take a very long time to pass Shaw/HanRam on defense- "5 tools" not with standing.

[moonslav59]

Different GM so you cant make that comparison...and hes right...no team would take a guy like Moncada and DH him as a regular to get him Abs...thats counterproductive to his development. Hes not saying YM wont play where they tell him, hes saying NO TEAM would do that to a kid like moncada...i agree it was the wrong move to bring Drew back, but that "has been"SS batted at a 777OPS the year before to help them win a WSC.

 

Just a scenario, what if it takes 2 years for Moncada to become a decent enough 3Bman to not be an embarrassment?

 

You all would keep him in the minors rather than get his bat in the line-up as a DH while he keeps practicing at another position?

 

It's just a hypothetical scenario. Of course, I'm all for playing Moncada at a position, if he's good enough to not be a minus.

 

Shaw has done better at 3B than I expected, and he's seems to be improving. I have serious questions about Shaw's offense, especially vs LHPs, so I do not see Shaw as beating out Moncada at 3B, once Moncada proves he can play 3B. We're not trading Pedey, so Moncada has to learn 3B, 1B our LF to win a job next year. Maybe I'm totally wrong about his slow progress defensively at 2B. If I am, then I'm probably wrong about how long it might take him to develop at 3B.

 

I may also be wrong about Moncada's bat being MLB ready or very close to ML ready right now. If I am wrong, then maybe Moncada has morre time to learn a new position than I think.

 

I also think we should spend almost all our financial resources on pitching next winter not on Encarnacion or the likes. That means we may, if Sox management feels the same way, have to cobble together a line-up with a few positions in flux, platooned or in competition for FT status:

 

LF: Beni, Young, Swihart, Holt, Moncada???

3B: Moncada, Shaw, Pablo, Hernandez, Holt (Rutledge)

1B: Shaw, HanRam, Pablo, Swihart???, (Holt)

DH: HanRam, Pablo, Young, Moncada/Shaw

 

The first name listed is who I would like to see at each position, but until Moncada shows he can play 3B, I'm keeping the DH position as a strong option.

 

I hope we do not trade Moncada, just because he may be slow to learn 3B or LF. That would be a bigger mistake than trying Moncada at DH until he learns another position.

 

[cp176]

Pedey is the toughest guy on the team.

 

I think that you are right and that is a problem for me. It is no knock on him either because he is as tough as they come. To compete at the top of the food chain, you need a minor bunch of guys as tough as he is.

[mvp 78]

He's already a middle infielder. Doubt he'd be an embarrassment at 3b.