Time for AC to GO

[notin]

20 hours ago, Maxbialystock said:

 

2. Cora managed the best Sox team ever in 2018.  3 years later--and the year after the Sox went 24-36 (.400) under an interim manager--the Sox got the wild card with 92 wins.  And, unlike Farrell who had better teams in 2016 and 2017 and got blown away in the ALDS both years, Cora managed the Sox to a wild card win over the Yankees, a 3-1 ALDS win over the 100 win Rays, and lost 4-2 to the Astros in the ALCS.  Without a closer.  

To be fair to Farrell, he did lose in the postseason to a team that was cheating.  And Cora was a big part of that cheating…

[Bellhorn04]

36 minutes ago, notin said:

If his value is not quantifiable, why is he so important?

Is it because he won a ring after inheriting a two-time defending AL East champion? And then proceeded to maintain .500 baseball for 6 years?

Is his value in Henry still liking him?  The same John Henry who didn’t want to keep Mookie?

You’re expressing plenty of dedication to a man who has guided the Sox to a 453-439 record since 2018.  It’s easy to list off bad moves and blame injuries - and I agree those things dont help.  But they’re not unique to Boston, either.

And stop copping out with “you just don’t like Cora.”  I don’t think he is a good MLB manager.  That’s hardly a condemnation.  I don’t think I’d be a good one either, and I certainly don’t hate myself for it.

So why the dedication?

I like him.  I think he's a good in-game manager.  He makes some moves that seem questionable but he generally has an explanation for them.  I think he comes to games prepared.

It seems an accepted fact that players like him.

He made moves that paid off in the 2018 playoffs, especially using the starters in relief stints.

The 2021 team had a surprisingly good run.

He's knocked the Yankees out of the playoffs twice.

I've always tended to be a pro-manager guy, always thought they take more abuse than they deserve.  

 

 

[moonslav59]

1 minute ago, notin said:

Right.

In fact, Cora never said he didn’t think Devers could play 1b, which he really shouldn’t say anyway, especially after moving him off third for defensive reasons.  Cora did say he preferred Devers at DH, but that’s not necessarily the same thing.  And Cora also said he planned on having ongoing discussions with Devers about 1b.  To me, he was just avoiding another awkward conversation.  Which is not good, because it’s part of his job to have those awkward conversations…

This is the main beef I have with Cora. Maybe Brez should have insisted he have that talk. Maybe there have been other similar talks that should have happened, but did not, so Cora could continue being the ultimate "players' manager."

I'm still not sure this rises to the level of termination, and I would like to know what Brez's role was in not having "the talk." Firing the manager, to me, often looks like the easy way out. It would further shift the blame away from the real reasons our teams have not been winners.

But hey, we gotta blame someone. It's in our DNA.

[Bellhorn04]

27 minutes ago, notin said:

And Cora also said he planned on having ongoing discussions with Devers about 1b.  To me, he was just avoiding another awkward conversation.  Which is not good, because it’s part of his job to have those awkward conversations…

Breslow went ahead and had that awkward conversation.  Apparently it didn't go so well.

If it was a simple matter to get Devers to play 1B, he'd still be with the team.

 

[Maxbialystock]

1 hour ago, notin said:

Who did it before Cora?  
 

Cora has been around through 4 CBOs.  At what point do we stop blaming everyone else around him and look at him?  Or are you trying to argue that everyone else everywhere in the organization are the incompetent ones and Cora is just the victim here? 
 

And can we stop blaming the downfall of the organization on the Sale trade, as if no other team has made trades that didn’t work out?  Wouldn’t the Yankees have been much better off holding on to Fitts and Weissert over the nothing they got from Verdugo?

One more time.  JH has never, ever hesitated to fire a manager.  He fired 2 managers after just one season.  He fired Francona after he won 2 WS.  He fired Farrell after winning the WS in 2013 and immediately after the Sox won AL East Division titles in 2016 and 2017.     

That Cora has had 3 (not 4) CBO's is clear evidence that they, not Cora, were the problem.  David Dombrowski was actually pretty doggone successful with 2 division titles (2016 and 2017) and the best Sox season ever in 2018.  However, he also had the highest payroll in MLB to work with.  In 2019, still with the biggest payroll in MLB, the Sox did not make the postseason.  Moreover, to fix that team, keep Mookie, etc was going to take a much larger payroll than what was already the highest in MLB.  That's why DD got dumped and Chaim Bloom hired.

Sale wasn't the downfall of the Sox, but he was a contributing factor for the 2021-2025 seasons.  In the first 3 of those seasons, he wasn't much use to the Sox.    In the 2024 season he was huge for the Braves (and was paid by the Sox!).  This year he's still the best starter on the Braves and would be 2d best on the Sox.  

The 2021 season was actually a pretty good one.  Thanks to Cora's managing, the Sox were a wild card that made it to the ALCS without a closer.   

As for 2022-25, the biggest problem has been JH's desire to spend less and get more a la the Rays.  Thus Chaim Bloom.  But it flat didn't work.   Breslow is an improvement over CB if only because he is allowed to make deals CB could not.  You gotta like the arrival this year of Bregman, Crochet, Chapman, and Narvaez.  

On the other other hand I'm convinced that hiring Bregman led directly to Raffy's departure because he had been repeatedly promised he could stay at 3b.    Giolito ($40M for 2 years) and Buehler ($21M for 1 year) not good.   Dumping Sale not good.  

As for this season, I must repeat yet again that Cora is missing his two best hitters--Bregman and Devers--and has a pitching staff that is struggling.  Plus he is starting 3 rookies and started a 4th before he went back to Worcester.  If he had Sale instead of Giolito, you think that might help?  Would a healthy Casas help? A healthy Dobbins, Crawford, Slaten, Houck?  The Sox effective payroll right now is $105M, 19th in MLB.    

By all means, come back at me and explain how Cora is really the cause of the Sox mediocrity.  And don't forget to explain why Cora had his contract extended by 3 years.  

 

[Maxbialystock]

34 minutes ago, notin said:

And that’s a fair point, but why go in a new direction under old management?  They’ve replaced people above Cora multiple times; they only replaced Cora when he got suspended…

You just don't get it.  You're pissed about the Sox wins and losses 2022-25, which is understandable.  But you then ignore that Cora managed the best team in Sox history, the year after basically the same team couldn't even get past the ALDS with Farrell managing.  That he was suspended by MLB in 2020, when the Sox had a .400 season, and then took the 2021 wild card Sox to the ALCS in direct contrast to Farrell having better teams in 2016 and 2017 and not getting past the ALDS.  

Most of all, you ignore that DD found Cora and hired him after firing Farrell and that Cora has been retained through 2 more CBO's, CB and Breslow, and even extended.  

You also ignore that JH, who is far and away the best owner the Sox have ever had, took a new direction after firing DD in 2019, which was to spend less, especially on starters.  Right now the Sox overall payroll is ranked 12th in MLB and the effective payroll is ranked 19th.  See spotrac.

 

[Bellhorn04]

1 hour ago, Duran Is The Man said:

and why was it worse? same guys.

Sale, Price, Porcello and Eovaldi.  All veterans with a lot of mileage on them.  Some of it was being overtaxed in the 2018 postseason, I have to think.  Price and Porcello were basically finished, as it turned out.   

[Bellhorn04]

38 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

How is this a what if?

Everyone here has been highly critical of the teams built by or GMs since 2019, and then we act like the manager mismanaged a team that should have been winning.

It was a fair question you asked.

[Bellhorn04]

To be candid I've wondered if some of the bad play falls on Cora.  Maybe it does.  But there's so much stuff we don't know.  Like with the hitting.  They seem to have gone all in on the Driveline stuff.  Does it seem to be working?  I'm pretty dubious about it, myself.  We strike out so much and seem to be lousy at situational hitting, generally speaking.

The average runs per game might look okay, but we sure seem to post a lot of 1's and 2's, many of which lead to painful losses featuring blown saves and Manfred Man nightmares. 🙃

[moonslav59]

27 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

I like him.  I think he's a good in-game manager.  He makes some moves that seem questionable but he generally has an explanation for them.  I think he comes to games prepared.

It seems an accepted fact that players like him.

He made moves that paid off in the 2018 playoffs, especially using the starters in relief stints.

The 2021 team had a surprisingly good run.

He's knocked the Yankees out of the playoffs twice.

I've always tended to be a pro-manager guy, always thought they take more abuse than they deserve.  

This is basically how I see it. I've had some minor differences of opinion over some of the things he does, but I don't view myself as being smarter than him or knowing all the facts and issues going on at any given moment on a team, so I've never felt my differences rose to the point where I felt he has to go.

I still don't, although I don't feel as strongly about this, as before. I've blamed the roster he's been handed as the main reason for mediocrity- or worse. After watching that 2020 season, 2021 seemed miraculous. The moves made before 2022, 2023 and 2024 all looked so feeble, not only to me, but to just about everyone here. The deadline non moves, too.

Now, we had an offseason of hope and renewed energy and finally a roster that had the potential to be a winner, in a league that looked like most of the better teams did not improve themselves or even got worse on paper, and we end up with the same mediocre results. Let's blame the manager and make it simple. Identify a fall guy other that the actual players that failed to meet the expectations we saw on paper. I'm not sure what a manager is supposed to do to prevent Duran from a major regression, to teach Rafaela more plate discipline (Oh, wait, he has shown improvement, there,) to get a vet like Story, who finally seems healthy, to hit like he did 5 years ago, to replace china doll Casas with nothing in the system, to get a rookie catcher to outplay Wong (Oh, wait...) and to fill in the shoes of departing Devers and Bregman on the IL. I guess Cora is the reason Campbell imploded, and we were stuck hoping on DHam to play like he did for 2 months in 2024.

I hate using the injury excuse, but we all knew our pen was highly suspect going into this season. Slaten was a big hope, and he's been hurt for much of the season. Make sure Cora gets no credit for Chapman and Wilson exceeding expectations, since that veers from the drumbeat narrative. When a manager has to reply on Weissert, Kelly, Guerrero and others in high level situations, what can we expect? The game threads are littered with "Why did he bring in _____?" Well, the simple answer was, "He has nobody better."

Now, the rotation: I applauded Brez for doing something no Sox GM had done in years: built rotation depth to the point where needed one at the deadline should never happen. Yes, much of it looked mediocre, suspect or injury prone, but it went 10-12 deep. Let's look at what I felt was the depth chart, pre-injuries, ex ept for the known Sandoval one:

1. Crochet: Can't blame Cora for anything here, although many complain he's pulled too early or was left in too long that one game.

2. Houck: I'm sorry if I can't find a reason why Cora cause him to disappear.

3. Buehler: I'm not aware Cora told Brez to sign a guy who is actually getting worse.

4. Crawford: Yup, Cora's fault.

5. Bello: Don't give Cora any credit for Bello actually doing better than 2024.

6. Sandoval: We knew he was more about 2026 than 2025, but sure, blame Cora for not being a witch doctor who could find a cure.

7. Giolito: Let's Brez  the credit for him actually doing well, lately, since Cora can only do harm.

8. Fitts: We all knew he was a bit of a dice roll.

9. Priester: Brez traded him away for a low level OF'er and far away pitching prospect.

10. Criswell: Has only been uses in the pen at the MLB level. I guess we could lay blame for not giving him a shot on Cora, but this is the #9-11 guy on the depth chart.

11. Whitlock: used in pen. Anyone disagree?

12. Wink: used in pen and now on 60 Day IL.

13. Murphy: started on IL and was know to be out for most of 2025.

14. Dobbins: No credit to Cora, PLEASE!

15, Newcomb: rose up during ST'ing to jump over 9-10 guys.

Here are the results, and of course, it's all Cora's fault:

Slot. GS/ERA

1. 17/2.06

2. 9/8.04

3. 13/6.29

4. 0/ IL

5. 12/ 3.31

6. 0/ IL

7. 10 4.53

8. 6/4.68

9. 0/ traded away

10. 0/ pen

11. 0/ pen

12. 0/pen & IL

13. 0/ IL

14. 10/ 4.10

15. 5/3.95 (DFA'd)

Can someone tell me what available manager would have been able to work with this and create a winner?

 

 

[Maxbialystock]

28 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Breslow went ahead and had that awkward conversation.  Apparently it didn't go so well.

If it was a simple matter to get Devers to play 1B, he'd still be with the team.

 

I agree it was anything but simple after Devers had been promised he would keep 3b.  Cora got him to embrace DH, which worked like gangbusters.  Moving again--to 1b and during the season--was just a bridge too far and Raffy dug his feet in.  

To me the great irony of hiring Bregman, who was having a terrific season, his best since 2019, is that right now the Sox don't have Bregman or Devers.  That's called subtraction by addition.  

[moonslav59]

9 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

It was a fair question you asked.

To be honest, and I'm not trying to throw stones at irate fans, since I am irate, too, but I think it's a bit disingenuous to bash JH, Bloom & Brez for poor roster construction, then blame the manager for not working a miracle.

Either take back what you said about Bloom and Brez and the failure of JH to spend, or stop expecting a manager to be a shaman.

Now, we can spread the blame around to everyone, and say they all could have done better or gotten more out of what we did have, and that is fair. Certainly, many here want the whole lot thrown out, including the owner who built up a structure that got us 4 rings in 15 years, after decades upon decades of futility and worse.

I'll say it again, be CAREFUL what you wish for.

 

[Maxbialystock]

5 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

This is basically how I see it. I've had some minor differences of opinion over some of the things he does, but I don't view myself as being smarter than him or knowing all the facts and issues going on at any given moment on a team, so I've never felt my differences rose to the point where I felt he has to go.

I still don't, although I don't feel as strongly about this, as before. I've blamed the roster he's been handed as the main reason for mediocrity- or worse. After watching that 2020 season, 2021 seemed miraculous. The moves made before 2022, 2023 and 2024 all looked so feeble, not only to me, but to just about everyone here. The deadline non moves, too.

Now, we had an offseason of hope and renewed energy and finally a roster that had the potential to be a winner, in a league that looked like most of the better teams did not improve themselves or even got worse on paper, and we end up with the same mediocre results. Let's blame the manager and make it simple. Identify a fall guy other that the actual players that failed to meet the expectations we saw on paper. I'm not sure what a manager is supposed to do to prevent Duran from a major regression, to teach Rafaela more plate discipline (Oh, wait, he has shown improvement, there,) to get a vet like Story, who finally seems healthy, to hit like he did 5 years ago, to replace china doll Casas with nothing in the system, to get a rookie catcher to outplay Wong (Oh, wait...) and to fill in the shoes of departing Devers and Bregman on the IL. I guess Cora is the reason Campbell imploded, and we were stuck hoping on DHam to play like he did for 2 months in 2024.

I hate using the injury excuse, but we all knew our pen was highly suspect going into this season. Slaten was a big hope, and he's been hurt for much of the season. Make sure Cora gets no credit for Chapman and Wilson exceeding expectations, since that veers from the drumbeat narrative. When a manager has to reply on Weissert, Kelly, Guerrero and others in high level situations, what can we expect? The game threads are littered with "Why did he bring in _____?" Well, the simple answer was, "He has nobody better."

Now, the rotation: I applauded Brez for doing something no Sox GM had done in years: built rotation depth to the point where needed one at the deadline should never happen. Yes, much of it looked mediocre, suspect or injury prone, but it went 10-12 deep. Let's look at what I felt was the depth chart, pre-injuries, ex ept for the known Sandoval one:

1. Crochet: Can't blame Cora for anything here, although many complain he's pulled too early or was left in too long that one game.

2. Houck: I'm sorry if I can't find a reason why Cora cause him to disappear.

3. Buehler: I'm not aware Cora told Brez to sign a guy who is actually getting worse.

4. Crawford: Yup, Cora's fault.

5. Bello: Don't give Cora any credit for Bello actually doing better than 2024.

6. Sandoval: We knew he was more about 2026 than 2025, but sure, blame Cora for not being a witch doctor who could find a cure.

7. Giolito: Let's Brez  the credit for him actually doing well, lately, since Cora can only do harm.

8. Fitts: We all knew he was a bit of a dice roll.

9. Priester: Brez traded him away for a low level OF'er and far away pitching prospect.

10. Criswell: Has only been uses in the pen at the MLB level. I guess we could lay blame for not giving him a shot on Cora, but this is the #9-11 guy on the depth chart.

11. Whitlock: used in pen. Anyone disagree?

12. Wink: used in pen and now on 60 Day IL.

13. Murphy: started on IL and was know to be out for most of 2025.

14. Dobbins: No credit to Cora, PLEASE!

15, Newcomb: rose up during ST'ing to jump over 9-10 guys.

Here are the results, and of course, it's all Cora's fault:

Slot. GS/ERA

1. 17/2.06

2. 9/8.04

3. 13/6.29

4. 0/ IL

5. 12/ 3.31

6. 0/ IL

7. 10 4.53

8. 6/4.68

9. 0/ traded away

10. 0/ pen

11. 0/ pen

12. 0/pen & IL

13. 0/ IL

14. 10/ 4.10

15. 5/3.95 (DFA'd)

Can someone tell me what available manager would have been able to work with this and create a winner?

 

 

Agree--of course.  Love all your specifics.  I can only add that right now spotrac says the Sox payroll is ranked 12th and the usable payroll--players who are on the active roster--is ranked 19th in MLB.  

 

[moonslav59]

35 minutes ago, Maxbialystock said:

One more time.  JH has never, ever hesitated to fire a manager.  He fired 2 managers after just one season.  He fired Francona after he won 2 WS.  He fired Farrell after winning the WS in 2013 and immediately after the Sox won AL East Division titles in 2016 and 2017.     

Max, I agree with most of what you say, and I don't want you think I'm always critical of what you say, but for the most part, GMs are usually the ones who orchestrate a manager's firing and replacement- probably with ownerships input and maybe, at times, their urging.

I know sometimes managers have been hired before the GM is named, and Cora was re-hired before Bloom was put in charge, so you are not wrong.

[Maxbialystock]

On 6/26/2025 at 12:54 AM, Arnold P Buckleflucker said:

I'm sorry.  19 1 run losses.  14 blown saves. Leading the league in errors and unearned runs.

That's ALL on the MANAGER.

I'm not sure how Alex Cora got this rep as being a "great manager."  There is enough talent on this team, despite the injuries, to contend for a playoff spot.  Go look at the RECORD since AC has been manager. It's time for AC to GO.

Love it.  I mean you're just dead wrong, but this is a great conversation starter.  

[Maxbialystock]

1 minute ago, moonslav59 said:

Max, I agree with most of what you say, and I don't want you think I'm always critical of what you say, but for the most part, GMs are usually the ones who orchestrate a manager's firing and replacement- probably with ownerships input and maybe, at times, their urging.

I know sometimes managers have been hired before the GM is named, and Cora was re-hired before Bloom was put in charge, so you are not wrong.

We mostly agree.  When we don't, it's usually because I'm looking for something to argue about.  

[moonslav59]

2 minutes ago, Maxbialystock said:

Agree--of course.  Love all your specifics.  I can only add that right now spotrac says the Sox payroll is ranked 12th and the usable payroll--players who are on the active roster--is ranked 19th in MLB.  

The does lead one to believe we should be and should have been winning more than we have been, since we've spent as much or more than most teams, but to me, that's more of an indictment on the GM and owner than the manager.

I don't see how Cora is to blame for the performances by Richards, Kluber, Paxton, Story, Yoshida, Hendriks, Buehler, Giolito and on and on...

If anything, these name exonerate Cora more than indict him.

How about these names? Refsnyder, Narvaez, Renfroe, Duval, O'Neill, Jansen, Martin, Chapman, Wilson and on and on...

[vegasbob]

56 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

This is the main beef I have with Cora. Maybe Brez should have insisted he have that talk. Maybe there have been other similar talks that should have happened, but did not, so Cora could continue being the ultimate "players' manager."

I'm still not sure this rises to the level of termination, and I would like to know what Brez's role was in not having "the talk." Firing the manager, to me, often looks like the easy way out. It would further shift the blame away from the real reasons our teams have not been winners.

But hey, we gotta blame someone. It's in our DNA.

Your earlier comment here or another thread is quite appropriate:  How about looking at the players , their efforts and performances.  Managers , coaches, analysts and FO's do not win nor lose games once the action begins.  They can influence putting players in certain positions, including the mound, but the player still needs to execute. 

[Maxbialystock]

1 hour ago, notin said:

To be fair to Farrell, he did lose in the postseason to a team that was cheating.  And Cora was a big part of that cheating…

Heckuva point.  Thanks.  In 2016 the Sox lost to Cleveland, 3 games to none.  

[Duran Is The Man]

1 hour ago, Bellhorn04 said:

I like him.  I think he's a good in-game manager.  He makes some moves that seem questionable but he generally has an explanation for them.  I think he comes to games prepared.

It seems an accepted fact that players like him.

He made moves that paid off in the 2018 playoffs, especially using the starters in relief stints.

The 2021 team had a surprisingly good run.

He's knocked the Yankees out of the playoffs twice.

I've always tended to be a pro-manager guy, always thought they take more abuse than they deserve.  

 

 

i began to loathe Cora the day he gave Story a "rest day", a week into the season and just after he was signed. good Lord. he demands so little that he gets what he demands.

[moonslav59]

21 minutes ago, vegasbob said:

Your earlier comment here or another thread is quite appropriate:  How about looking at the players , their efforts and performances.  Managers , coaches, analysts and FO's do not win nor lose games once the action begins.  They can influence putting players in certain positions, including the mound, but the player still needs to execute. 

While I do think coaches and managers can influence how players perform, it is rather minimal. They can recognize something a player is doing wrongly, at times. I just don't think it is a big difference maker, and that it is likely most staffs probably notice the same things, equally over time. I could be wrong or very wrong, here, but who are we to know Cora & his coaching staff is better, the same or worse at this? Just because our record sucks, we assume it to be true?

I do think many of our players have not played up to expectations. Many have been hurt. Many have done better. 

I know the age old adage is "YOu can't fire the whole team," but when do we place blame on the players? (Not that it's their fault they got hurt or just lost it.)

[moonslav59]

17 minutes ago, Duran Is The Man said:

i began to loathe Cora the day he gave Story a "rest day", a week into the season and just after he was signed. good Lord. he demands so little that he gets what he demands.

The scheduled rest days has been one of my major issues with Cora, but I don't view it as a "must be fired" thing. Our players still imploded at the end of every season, despite being "well-rested." I've not noticed this happening, recently, so maybe he got away from it.

I rarely blame Cora for in game choices.

I've had issues over line-up orders, but studies show the influences is so minor, it's near negligible.

I think he let's his loyalty to players, mostly long time vest lead to sticking with them for too long, but there are many cases where said players ended up responding after weeks of posters calling for that player to be demoted in the line-up, rested, benched or demoted to AAA and even DFA'd. Hell, posters here wanted Devers moved down in the line-up, and more recently Story benched.

Being loyal to your players should have some benefits, too, and it's not like all of our replacement players have shown up the guy they replaced. The Toro-Romy platoon was forced on Cora, and Toro is starting to slip downwards. The Campbell decision was a big one, and we all loved it, after 2 weeks. Cora had to demote him,  eventually, and DHam has not impressed. I'm not sure what else Cora could have done at 2B. Romy is needed at 1B and Toro at 1B and 3B. Anyone blame Cora for not moving Rafaela to 2B? How about the way Cora has handled the catcher situation? Was he overly loyal to Wong, who hit well in 2024 and looks to have improved his defense? Nope!

Some posters did not like the idea of an Abreu-Ref platoon in RF. Did Cora err there? Cora ended up demoting Duran out of the leadoff slot. Was that a mistake? Did he stick with him, there for too long? Maybe, but who was the obvious replacement?

I'm just not seeing many identifiable blunders by Cora. To me, much our pitching staff has over performed, when you look at the names of our IP leaders, and I don't blame Cora for the under performances by Houck, Buehler and Hendriks:

IP

109 Crochet (leads the league in IP)

65 Bello

63 Buehler

59 Dobbins

52 Giolito

44 Houck

41 Newcomb

40 Whitlock

36 Weissert

33 Chapman

Anybody here that Cora played too much or too little or can be blamed for poor results?

21-30 IP: Bernardino, Wilson, Fitts, Slaten, Kelly

11-20: Guerrero, Hendriks, Wink

5-10: Criswell & Burdi

I'm not seeing mismanagement of this staff: I'm seeing a ton of injuries and pitchers who "lost it" likely through no fault of Cora.

[notin]

1 hour ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Breslow went ahead and had that awkward conversation.  Apparently it didn't go so well.

If it was a simple matter to get Devers to play 1B, he'd still be with the team.

 

It’s not about the end result; it’s about Cora deliberately side-stepping the entire affair, starting with his blaming of the departed Bloom rather than actually addressing the situation…

[Maxbialystock]

1 hour ago, moonslav59 said:

This is the main beef I have with Cora. Maybe Brez should have insisted he have that talk. Maybe there have been other similar talks that should have happened, but did not, so Cora could continue being the ultimate "players' manager."

I'm still not sure this rises to the level of termination, and I would like to know what Brez's role was in not having "the talk." Firing the manager, to me, often looks like the easy way out. It would further shift the blame away from the real reasons our teams have not been winners.

But hey, we gotta blame someone. It's in our DNA.

Honestly, I think Devers was gone the day Bregman was announced as the new third baseman, a position Devers had played for 8 seasons and which he had been promised he would keep.  DH was a great interim fit thanks to Cora convincing Raffy to embrace it.  When Casas went down, Breslow saw the value in moving Devers to 1b so Yoshida, who is paid $18.5M and can only DH, could replace him as DH.  

That all made sense to Breslow does to most of Talksox, but I think Cora realized the move to 3b was a bridge too far.  In fact, playing 1b did not make sense to Devers because he had been lied to about 3b, agreed to be DH where he was flourishing, and now was being asked to play a position he'd never played before.   

Raffy has yet to play 1b for the Giants, but no doubt inevitably will.   In 9 home games with the Giants his OPS is .836 and the Giants are 3-6.  That's the same record as the Sox, 3-6, but they have been on the road for all 9 games and without both Raffy and Bregman.  Short sample sizes, I agree.  

 

[drewski6]

Fire Cora or dont, I dont think its an important job.  But Notins suggestion that every team makes bad GM moves and those come out in the wash is not one of his better takes. It reminds me of some of his other wild takes , such as : free agents dont impact you on the field, they are just for PR.

Notin, you have some of the best takes on this forum. I appreciated how quickly you were the second person here to say "just get Bregman" and thats just one example.

But the most important thing in winning baseball is the talent level.  Who you have.  Not how they are coached, not how they are developed, not how they are used. The key to winning in baseball , more than anything else, is have better players.

I couldnt care less is if Cora was retained, fired, or kicked upstairs to GM.  But Bres needed to get sacked yesterday. And Bloom stunk too.  And these reasons are why weve stunk since DD left. We didnt go to crap when we changed managers, it was when we changed DD and stopped prioritizing having the best players we could.

Cant make chicken salad out of chicken dung.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

2 hours ago, notin said:

And that’s a fair point, but why go in a new direction under old management?  They’ve replaced people above Cora multiple times; they only replaced Cora when he got suspended…

"They’ve replaced people above Cora multiple times;"

That right there, 5GGs speculated, says a lot. What is it about Alex Cora that -- if not endears him -- at least sustains him in the eyes of the geniuses that own and/or run the Red Sox?

AC is known as a players' manager. He's well-liked among those he manages, and peers in general. If he's not totally comfortable in the spotlight and dealing with the media, he's not condescending and doesn't cover up insecurities or truths he wants to hide with ivy-league logorrhea (a word that literally means mouth runs).

A CBO known as a stiff probably can't relate to the players or media as well... and probably didn't even when he was still wearing a baseball uniform. Keeping an affable guy like Cora around always deflects and distracts... and since this skipper was foisted on the new CBO, it can't ever really be the latter's fault when things go south.

But if/when Breslow is finally allowed to hire his own hand-picked skipper, and it doesn't work out, there's only one man to blame for ALL the failure.

And for all we know, Cora was the biggest non-dollar sign reason Alex Bregman signed with Boston. Will a Cora firing contribute to a Bregman opt-out? Can the Sox afford to lose their best player twice in one year?

 

[jdc69]

2 hours ago, Maxbialystock said:

One more time.  JH has never, ever hesitated to fire a manager.  He fired 2 managers after just one season.  He fired Francona after he won 2 WS.  He fired Farrell after winning the WS in 2013 and immediately after the Sox won AL East Division titles in 2016 and 2017.     

That Cora has had 3 (not 4) CBO's is clear evidence that they, not Cora, were the problem.  David Dombrowski was actually pretty doggone successful with 2 division titles (2016 and 2017) and the best Sox season ever in 2018.  However, he also had the highest payroll in MLB to work with.  In 2019, still with the biggest payroll in MLB, the Sox did not make the postseason.  Moreover, to fix that team, keep Mookie, etc was going to take a much larger payroll than what was already the highest in MLB.  That's why DD got dumped and Chaim Bloom hired.

Sale wasn't the downfall of the Sox, but he was a contributing factor for the 2021-2025 seasons.  In the first 3 of those seasons, he wasn't much use to the Sox.    In the 2024 season he was huge for the Braves (and was paid by the Sox!).  This year he's still the best starter on the Braves and would be 2d best on the Sox.  

The 2021 season was actually a pretty good one.  Thanks to Cora's managing, the Sox were a wild card that made it to the ALCS without a closer.   

As for 2022-25, the biggest problem has been JH's desire to spend less and get more a la the Rays.  Thus Chaim Bloom.  But it flat didn't work.   Breslow is an improvement over CB if only because he is allowed to make deals CB could not.  You gotta like the arrival this year of Bregman, Crochet, Chapman, and Narvaez.  

On the other other hand I'm convinced that hiring Bregman led directly to Raffy's departure because he had been repeatedly promised he could stay at 3b.    Giolito ($40M for 2 years) and Buehler ($21M for 1 year) not good.   Dumping Sale not good.  

As for this season, I must repeat yet again that Cora is missing his two best hitters--Bregman and Devers--and has a pitching staff that is struggling.  Plus he is starting 3 rookies and started a 4th before he went back to Worcester.  If he had Sale instead of Giolito, you think that might help?  Would a healthy Casas help? A healthy Dobbins, Crawford, Slaten, Houck?  The Sox effective payroll right now is $105M, 19th in MLB.    

By all means, come back at me and explain how Cora is really the cause of the Sox mediocrity.  And don't forget to explain why Cora had his contract extended by 3 years.  

 

He takes pitchers out too early and then the bullpen blows the save or just blows everything to smithereens. He takes them out when the game is close, they're still throwing effectively and the pitch count is under 90. He's done it about 4-5 times now and it has all resulted the same, undermining the teams momentum. Taking Giolito out early was the latest. Look at that succesful period where we swept the Yankees, all the pitchers pitched deep into the games and the bullpen performed well to finish.

Cora is not managing to win games, he's managing to prevent injuries. Its a losers mentality and doesnt seem to prevent injuries either.

[moonslav59]

56 minutes ago, notin said:

It’s not about the end result; it’s about Cora deliberately side-stepping the entire affair, starting with his blaming of the departed Bloom rather than actually addressing the situation…

He didn't blame Bloom, when He said "he's not here, anymore."

[moonslav59]

50 minutes ago, Maxbialystock said:

Honestly, I think Devers was gone the day Bregman was announced as the new third baseman, a position Devers had played for 8 seasons and which he had been promised he would keep.  DH was a great interim fit thanks to Cora convincing Raffy to embrace it.  When Casas went down, Breslow saw the value in moving Devers to 1b so Yoshida, who is paid $18.5M and can only DH, could replace him as DH.  

That all made sense to Breslow does to most of Talksox, but I think Cora realized the move to 3b was a bridge too far.  In fact, playing 1b did not make sense to Devers because he had been lied to about 3b, agreed to be DH where he was flourishing, and now was being asked to play a position he'd never played before.   

Raffy has yet to play 1b for the Giants, but no doubt inevitably will.   In 9 home games with the Giants his OPS is .836 and the Giants are 3-6.  That's the same record as the Sox, 3-6, but they have been on the road for all 9 games and without both Raffy and Bregman.  Short sample sizes, I agree.  

 

Max, a lie is intentionally telling someone something you know to be untrue.

Bloom likely meant what he said.

Bloom was replaced.

it's not a lie, when Brez has a different idea on where Devers should play.

Plus, we've been through this idea of yours about Devers being gone the minute we signed Bregman. You even admitted you did not think that, at the time, and that the decision was not made that day,

[Old Red]

3 hours ago, notin said:

You might be putting words in Cora’s mouth.  Did he avoid asking Devers because he didn’t think Devers could play first?  Or because he didn’t want to ask Devers to make another change after the first time went so awkwardly?

I’m not putting words in anyone’s mouth. I heard Shaugnessy say he had actually talked  with Cora about Raffy playing 1B, and Cora said he didn’t think Raffy would be a good 1B, and that’s why he never approached Raffy about playing 1B, and wasn’t going to. No other reason was given, which I know doesn’t fit so many’s narrative on here that it couldn’t have been Just A Baseball Decision, which it sounds like to me. I could say I don’t know how so many could have been so wrong, but I do know.