Time for AC to GO

[Old Red]

2 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

If this is true, and I can find no direct quote that says Brez asked or told Devers to play 1B, it makes Cora look even worse. It's a managers job to play the players at positions he wants them to play and inform them on where they will be playing. The fact that Brez had to do it, assuming he did, only highlights Cora's dropping the ball on his managerial duties.

If I had a $ for every time I heard Devers Forevers I’d be rich, but the minute Devers doesn’t do something you think was a good idea even if it wasn’t you turn on him, and call him all kind of names. 🤮

[Old Red]

2 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

I see you are predictably back, when things are going badly. Welcome back.

I see you still keep getting my position wrong, as always. That is not so welcoming.

The GM wants Devers to play 1B. That has nothing to do with what I've wanted for years. The manager doesn't do what his GM wants, so the GM has to try it himself. I guess that is no problem for you. It is to me. 

I'm fine if you disagree, but at least understand my true position, correctly.

Again, welcome back during another down time in Sox history.

I’ve been away, because I had a cancerous tumor removed from my neck in Portland. It certainly isn’t because the Red Sox are losing. As usual you are wrong BiG time again.

[moonslav59]

7 minutes ago, Old Red said:

If I had a $ for every time I heard Devers Forevers I’d be rich, but the minute Devers doesn’t do something you think was a good idea even if it wasn’t you turn on him, and call him all kind of names. 🤮

What names have I called him?

Can you try to just get one thing right about me? Just once?

[moonslav59]

4 minutes ago, Old Red said:

I’ve been away, because I had a cancerous tumor removed from my neck in Portland. It certainly isn’t because the Red Sox are losing. As usual you are wrong BiG time again.

Sorry to hear that and sincerely hope you recover. Unlike you, however, I am correct in my point: you show up way, way, way more when things are bad than when they are good.

Of course, you will never admit it, but it's true.

What's untrue is that I do not and have not called Devers names, except "Devers Forevers," and things like "great hitter."

[notin]

58 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

But we have no idea exactly what Cora said to Devers.  And we know that Devers accepted the move to DH and was in fact hitting very well.  So what did Cora do wrong there?  

When asked about third base, he foisted that promise off on Bloom.  He absolved Devers’ play at third from the whole equation.  He did get Devers to (begrudgingly?) accept DH.  But that Devers was clearly reluctant with one move (that no one told him he was responsible for) very likely factored into his blatant reluctance for a second move, despite the second move resulting from an injury.  Let’s not ignore that huge factor…

[notin]

12 minutes ago, Old Red said:

I’ve been away, because I had a cancerous tumor removed from my neck in Portland. It certainly isn’t because the Red Sox are losing. As usual you are wrong BiG time again.

Best of luck in the recovery.  Hopefully that is the end of that chapter for you…

[Bellhorn04]

14 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

If this is true, and I can find no direct quote that says Brez asked or told Devers to play 1B, it makes Cora look even worse. It's a managers job to play the players at positions he wants them to play and inform them on where they will be playing. The fact that Brez had to do it, assuming he did, only highlights Cora's dropping the ball on his managerial duties.

You're jumping to all kinds of conclusions with very little evidence, moon.  We have no idea exactly what Cora said or didn't say to Devers, or what exactly prompted Breslow to have a one-on-one meeting with Devers to address the first base question.  Maybe Breslow got impatient about it.  We know the meeting didn't go well.  And then the second meeting with Henry, Devers and Cora apparently didn't either.  Maybe the moving to first base thing was just doomed from the start, because Devers thought he was being jerked all over the place.

The bottom line is it turned out disastrously, but we have so little information on which to properly assign blame.  We're all just guessing and we all have our biases.  

[Bellhorn04]

10 minutes ago, notin said:

When asked about third base, he foisted that promise off on Bloom.  He absolved Devers’ play at third from the whole equation.  He did get Devers to (begrudgingly?) accept DH.  But that Devers was clearly reluctant with one move (that no one told him he was responsible for) very likely factored into his blatant reluctance for a second move, despite the second move resulting from an injury.  Let’s not ignore that huge factor…

Devers was reluctant about both moves, that's not in question.  The only question is whether there was any better way to deal with his reluctance.  The only alternative I'm seeing anyone present is to go hard-ass, lay down the law on where he's playing.  We don't know how that would have gone, it's just really hard to picture it going well.   

Devers is saying he was disrespected, the hard-ass approach would only be more disrespectful.

 

[notin]

Just now, Bellhorn04 said:

Devers was reluctant about both moves, that's not in question.  The only question is whether there was any better way to deal with his reluctance.  The only alternative I'm seeing anyone present is to go hard-ass on Devers, lay down the law on where he's playing.  We don't know how that would have gone, it's just really hard to picture it going well.   

Whether or not it was a difficult conversation is absolutely not an excuse to bypass it.  In fact, it’s a reason not to…

[Old Red]

10 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

You're jumping to all kinds of conclusions with very little evidence, moon.  We have no idea exactly what Cora said or didn't say to Devers, or what exactly prompted Breslow to have a one-on-one meeting with Devers to address the first base question.  Maybe Breslow got impatient about it.  We know the meeting didn't go well.  And then the second meeting with Henry, Devers and Cora apparently didn't either.  Maybe the moving to first base thing was just doomed from the start, because Devers thought he was being jerked all over the place.

The bottom line is it turned out disastrously, but we have so little information on which to properly assign blame.  We're all just guessing and we all have our biases.  

Cora said in an interview that he had not talked to Devers about playing 1B, and wasn’t going to. That’s evidence. Shaugnessy said in an interview that Shaugnessy himself had actually talked to Cora about Raffy, and 1B, and Cora told Shaugnessy that he did not think Raffy would be good at 1B, and that’s why he didn’t approach Raffy about it. That’s also evidence. There is no evidence to the contrary that I know of.

[moonslav59]

8 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

You're jumping to all kinds of conclusions with very little evidence, moon.  We have no idea exactly what Cora said or didn't say to Devers, or what exactly prompted Breslow to have a one-on-one meeting with Devers to address the first base question.  Maybe Breslow got impatient about it.  We know the meeting didn't go well.  And then the second meeting with Henry, Devers and Cora apparently didn't either.  Maybe the moving to first base thing was just doomed from the start, because Devers thought he was being jerked all over the place.

The bottom line is it turned out disastrously, but we have so little information on which to properly assign blame.  We're all just guessing and we all have our biases.  

I came right out and said we don't know if even Brez asked or told Devers to play 1B.

My point was only that Devers never even tried on a 1Bman's mitt, then immediately said, "I'll play anywhere they want me to play," once with the SFG.

Cora failed to get Devers to play 1B, whether he spoke with him or not.

Brez failed to get Devers to play 1B, whether he politely asked him to, begged him to or demanded him to do it, or even if he just laid out what they wanted and left it at that: no ask/no tell.

Devers never even practiced at 1B. I'm leaping to no conclusions other than we failed to get him to play 1B, My opinion is that everyone shares in the blame, and I'm not sure who is most to blame, but my gut says the player, because I believe a player should always do what is best for the team and defer to the manager on what specifically that is.

I've played a lot of organized sports in my life, and often disagreed with how the coach/manager used me, but I would never dream of saying no to anything asked of me. On the contrary, I'd jump at anything asked of me and do my best to show I can do it well, in hopes he would use me more often or in more meaningful roles.

[TedYazPapiMookie]

Fact -- Devers was the worst 3B of all time and his fielding percentage documented how many times he was successful in getting an out when the ball was hit to him regardless if it hit him in the foot which it often did or he reached back-handed and he caught it but tipped over from his lack of balance and couldn't make the play or he charged the ball but was so slow getting to it the runner was safe.  You know, these are all the plays Bregman makes that weren't made for 8 seasons. 

Cora told him he didn't need his glove anymore and that was the smartest thing Cora has EVER done.  Breslow and Cora were not in sync when Casas went down, and Cora stuck to his guns and said no glove for Devers and Breslow said he was going to play 1B.  Again, Cora was right to not let him play and Breslow while GM spoke out of turn trying to suggest Devers would be a team player about it.  Then Devers said no and Breslow looked foolish.  When Bregman went down again Cora stuck to his guns and said no Devers at 3B and Breslow once again suggested it as a possibility.  At this point, Devers was so pissed at Breslow and Cora for not being in sync and making HIM look bad that he said no on principle.  The cord was cut at that point, and we simply had to wait to see where he was going to be shipped.

Since losing Devers contract was a HUGE win, there really isn't a need to keep rehashing this event.  It's over and Boston came out the winner by adding 8 years of Devers' salary back into the coffers and we got some potential talent as well.  That's a win-win.  The clubhouse will be better and the defense with Bregman is far, far better.  Reap the rewards of this great deal!!

[moonslav59]

1 minute ago, Old Red said:

Cora said in an interview that he had not talked to Devers about playing 1B, and wasn’t going to. That’s evidence. Shaugnessy said in an interview that Shaugnessy himself had actually talked to Cora about Raffy, and 1B, and Cora told Shaugnessy that he did not think Raffy would be good at 1B, and that’s why he didn’t approach Raffy about it. That’s also evidence. There is no evidence to the contrary that I know of.

This may very well be 100% true, and I can see no evidence to the contrary, but are you okay with a GM wanting his manager to get a player to play another position, and there is evidence that Brez wanted Devers at 1B, and the manager not even asking the player to try it? 

Some might call it insubordination by Cora. Some might call it cowardice. Some might call it that Cora is just sticking to his convictions and doesn't have to do what his boss wants.

Do you fall into any of these categories or one I did not mention? Do you think it's okay that Cora did not try to make happen what his boss wanted to happen? Please try to answer this actual question and not deflect to another issue.

To me, this question gets to the meat of Cora's culpability or not, in this whole nasty fiasco.

[moonslav59]

6 minutes ago, TedYazPapiMookie said:

Fact -- Devers was the worst 3B of all time and his fielding percentage documented how many times he was successful in getting an out when the ball was hit to him regardless if it hit him in the foot which it often did or he reached back-handed and he caught it but tipped over from his lack of balance and couldn't make the play or he charged the ball but was so slow getting to it the runner was safe.  You know, these are all the plays Bregman makes that weren't made for 8 seasons. 

Cora told him he didn't need his glove anymore and that was the smartest thing Cora has EVER done.  Breslow and Cora were not in sync when Casas went down, and Cora stuck to his guns and said no glove for Devers and Breslow said he was going to play 1B.  Again, Cora was right to not let him play and Breslow while GM spoke out of turn trying to suggest Devers would be a team player about it.  Then Devers said no and Breslow looked foolish.  When Bregman went down again Cora stuck to his guns and said no Devers at 3B and Breslow once again suggested it as a possibility.  At this point, Devers was so pissed at Breslow and Cora for not being in sync and making HIM look bad that he said no on principle.  The cord was cut at that point, and we simply had to wait to see where he was going to be shipped.

Since losing Devers contract was a HUGE win, there really isn't a need to keep rehashing this event.  It's over and Boston came out the winner by adding 8 years of Devers' salary back into the coffers and we got some potential talent as well.  That's a win-win.  The clubhouse will be better and the defense with Bregman is far, far better.  Reap the rewards of this great deal!!

I usually disagree with almost every point you make, but I agree with everything here.

Nice job TYPM. Keep it up!

😊

[dannycater]

56 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

It's very difficult for many adults to learn a new language. I lived in Mexico for 3.5 years, took 5 levels of Spanish at the big university, and then hired a one-on-one tutor for another year. I got to the point where I could understand maybe 75% of what I read, 50% of what I could hear and my speaking level got to maybe 25% efficiency. (I teach ESL, so I know a little bit about proficiency levels in all 4 domains of language.)

I'm not defending anybody for not learning the prominent language of the country they spend so much time in, but this is not even his home. I couldn't learn Spanish when Mexico was my home, and I planned on living there indefinitely. 

I feel like once you are that rich and that immersed in the Pro Sports culture, you got to work that much harder to communicate in an English-speaking country. And your point is well taken, but then again Pastranak had to learn the language, Bergeron was French and became affluent English, just to name a few. Ortiz got to a point where he is very fluent in English.

[Maxbialystock]

42 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

If this is true, and I can find no direct quote that says Brez asked or told Devers to play 1B, it makes Cora look even worse. It's a managers job to play the players at positions he wants them to play and inform them on where they will be playing. The fact that Brez had to do it, assuming he did, only highlights Cora's dropping the ball on his managerial duties.

Actually, I think the real issue is that Cora is responsible for winning games and Breslow for managing a payroll.  So Cora was absolutely, positively right to convince Raffy to embrace DH, which was perfect for a good hit no field guy.  A bonus was that as DH Raffy never missed a game.  Plus he and Bregman, batting 2d and 3d, were a great combo.  Plus Casas was at 1b.  

As you pointed out, Breslow couldn't live with paying two guys, Raffy and Yoshida, $30M and $18.6, to be the DH. So Casas--who was having a rotten season at bat--going on the IL was the perfect opportunity to move Raffy to 1b so that Yoshida could DH.  

What I find tiresome about this discussion is that it ignores 2 far greater calamities.  The first is the IL list which includes Bregman and a bunch of pitchers.  The Sox overall payroll is $192M, but the active payroll is just $105M.  The second is that the Sox pitching has gone south.  

Finally, I have to repeat that I believe Devers was on his way out the day that Bregman was announced as the Sox third baseman.  

[notin]

50 minutes ago, Old Red said:

If I had a $ for every time I heard Devers Forevers I’d be rich, but the minute Devers doesn’t do something you think was a good idea even if it wasn’t you turn on him, and call him all kind of names. 🤮

I think you mean me.  I’ve been calling Devers names.  I think he earned them.

I have also never said Devers Forevers until this post…

[moonslav59]

Just now, dannycater said:

I feel like once you are that rich and that immersed in the Pro Sports culture, you got to work that much harder to communicate in an English-speaking country. And your point is well taken, but then again Pastranak had to learn the language, Bergeron was French and became affluent English, just to name a few. Ortiz got to a point where he is very fluent in English.

Not everyone's brain is hardwired for language acquisition as easily as the next guy, especially adults.

Again, I'm not defending Devers, but the guy doesn't live here. He works here, then goes home. he will likely not retire here, either. He doesn't need to speak English to do his job, and maybe doesn't care about communicating  Americans who does not speak Spanish.

[moonslav59]

3 minutes ago, notin said:

I think you mean me.  I’ve been calling Devers names.  I think he earned them.

I have also never said Devers Forevers until this post…

Don't expect Red to admit he confused me with someone else.... maybe you.

[Old Red]

4 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

This may very well be 100% true, and I can see no evidence to the contrary, but are you okay with a GM wanting his manager to get a player to play another position, and there is evidence that Brez wanted Devers at 1B, and the manager not even asking the player to try it? 

Some might call it insubordination by Cora. Some might call it cowardice. Some might call it that Cora is just sticking to his convictions and doesn't have to do what his boss wants.

Do you fall into any of these categories or one I did not mention? Do you think it's okay that Cora did not try to make happen what his boss wanted to happen? Please try to answer this actual question and not deflect to another issue.

To me, this question gets to the meat of Cora's culpability or not, in this whole nasty fiasco.

I’m 100% okay with Cora not wanting to put Raffy at 1B no matter what Brez wanted. I’ve said many times that Cora knows Raffy better than anyone especially Brez.  You can call it insubordination by Cora, but Cora didn’t think it was a good baseball decision, and I agree 100% with that also, and always have thought Raffy at 1B was a bad idea. I have said many times that had Cora  wanted Raffy at 1B I would have softened my stance, but he didn’t, and i didn’t also. I’m not a Cora guy, and I wasn’t a Devers Forevers guy either, but from the facts as I know them I back both 100% in this matter.

[moonslav59]

7 minutes ago, Old Red said:

I’m 100% okay with Cora not wanting to put Raffy at 1B no matter what Brez wanted. I’ve said many times that Cora knows Raffy better than anyone especially Brez.  You can call it insubordination by Cora, but Cora didn’t think it was a good baseball decision, and I agree 100% with that also, and always have thought Raffy at 1B was a bad idea. I have said many times that had Cora  wanted Raffy at 1B I would have softened my stance, but he didn’t, and i didn’t also. I’m not a Cora guy, and I wasn’t a Devers Forevers guy either, but from the facts as I know them I back both 100% in this matter.

I didn't call it insubordination.

Thanks for actually answering my question and saying you are fine with a manager not doing what his boss wants him to do, just because you agree with the position the manager took.

[dannycater]

12 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

Not everyone's brain is hardwired for language acquisition as easily as the next guy, especially adults.

Again, I'm not defending Devers, but the guy doesn't live here. He works here, then goes home. he will likely not retire here, either. He doesn't need to speak English to do his job, and maybe doesn't care about communicating  Americans who does not speak Spanish.

I say 300 million, make the attempt. Feel same about Ohtani. 

[Old Red]

18 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

Don't expect Red to admit he confused me with someone else.... maybe you.

I would never confuse you with someone else even in my weakened state of mind.

[Old Red]

8 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

I didn't call it insubordination.

Thanks for actually answering my question and saying you are fine with a manager not doing what his boss wants him to do, just because you agree with the position the manager took.

You did say Raffy was being insubordinate before.  I  had already answered you on this before also. I gave the same response, and you gave the same response back. If its Wrong to side with Cora, and Raffy on this than so be it, but I’ve taken the same stance since day 1. Like I said I’m not a Cora guy, but Cora knows more about baseball than Brez IMO.

[Maxbialystock]

35 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

This may very well be 100% true, and I can see no evidence to the contrary, but are you okay with a GM wanting his manager to get a player to play another position, and there is evidence that Brez wanted Devers at 1B, and the manager not even asking the player to try it? 

Some might call it insubordination by Cora. Some might call it cowardice. Some might call it that Cora is just sticking to his convictions and doesn't have to do what his boss wants.

Do you fall into any of these categories or one I did not mention? Do you think it's okay that Cora did not try to make happen what his boss wanted to happen? Please try to answer this actual question and not deflect to another issue.

To me, this question gets to the meat of Cora's culpability or not, in this whole nasty fiasco.

Cora's job is to do the best with what he's got.  Once Bregman was announced as third baseman, DH made a ton of sense for Raffy, and so it proved.  He never missed a game as DH, led the team in rbi's, and was having a career year at the plate.  If you are the manager, there is no way you want to move Raffy to 1b.  

Breslow's job is to get good players and manage the payroll.  For him moving to Devers to 1b made all kinds of sense because spending $48.6M for the DH was nuts.    So he bypassed Cora, got a negative response, brought in his bosses to magnify the issue, and proceeded to find a deal to dump Raffy and his huge salary.  

I don't think Cora or Breslow was "culpable."  Both were doing their jobs.  Plus to me this little caper has been subsumed by the Sox gigantic IL, the absence of Bregman from the lineup, playing 4 rookies, and having a pitching staff in utter disarray.  

 

 

 

 

[Old Red]

1 hour ago, moonslav59 said:

Sorry to hear that and sincerely hope you recover. Unlike you, however, I am correct in my point: you show up way, way, way more when things are bad than when they are good.

Of course, you will never admit it, but it's true.

What's untrue is that I do not and have not called Devers names, except "Devers Forevers," and things like "great hitter."

As I’ve said many times I’m not a cheerleader like you, and there is nothing wrong with being one, so I don’t post as much when things are going good, but while it may be true I post more when things are going bad it’s also true that for 4 years in a row now things have been bad more times than things have been good, so it’s all in context if you add it all up.

[moonslav59]

15 minutes ago, Old Red said:

As I’ve said many times I’m not a cheerleader like you, and there is nothing wrong with being one, so I don’t post as much when things are going good, but while it may be true I post more when things are going bad it’s also true that for 4 years in a row now things have been bad more times than things have been good, so it’s all in context if you add it all up.

Yes, that is one reason why you have been around, so much.

Still won't admit it wasn't me that called Devers bad names, though- just as expected.

[Old Red]

4 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

Yes, that is one reason why you have been around, so much.

Still won't admit it wasn't me that called Devers bad names, though- just as expected.

Bad names? I know you did say he was insubordinate.

[jdc69]

I'm thinking the Red Sox were looking to get rid of Devers before the season even started and had to wait to find a suitor to do it. Its the only thing that explains the massive incompetence surrounding this whole thing. I don't agree with it still but it makes sense.

[Maxbialystock]

1 hour ago, dannycater said:

I say 300 million, make the attempt. Feel same about Ohtani. 

Those big contracts say nothing about learning English.  Plus with all that dough Raffy and Ohtani can afford interpreters. 

I've lived in Germany, Italy, South Korea, and Saudi Arabia.  I did OK in German and was not bad in French (high school and college), but failed utterly with Italian, Korean, and Arabic.  

What experience do you have with foreign languages in foreign lands?