A Realistic View of the 2025 Red Sox: Part II

[mvp 78]

Just now, Bellhorn04 said:

This team looks to have to a good chance to end up worse than the 2022-2024 teams, and that part is a bit of a shock.

 

I can't believe moon tricked me into believing that they were gonna be contendahs. I will never forgive him. 

[Old Red]

1 minute ago, moonslav59 said:

As Cora pointed out, too many chances were handed to the Angel's, last night, and not all of them were called "errors."

It really looked like we improved the defense, over the winter and with Story still healthy in June, but it has not worked out, at all.

With Bregman out, we lost the one sure improved position, although he made 3-4 more errors than I expected in less than 2 months of play.

We can tinker with call-ups and position changes, but as of now, it doesn't seem like there are any in-house solutions that will make the difference needed to make a solid move towards making the playoffs. Game are not won on paper, and Brez is finding that out, firsthand.

I liked most of his winter moves, so I kinda feel I'd be hypocritical, if I berated him up and down.

I don't have any major issues with the way Cora runs the team, but it does seem like the minor ones are piling up, and his insistence on keeping established players at the positions they want to play or have played for a long time has moved into the major issue category, for me. I doubt firing or promoting him would make a difference.

These guys need to play the game like they know how and like they have in the past. It's on them. Hardly anyone is rising to the occasion, and I'm not sure that's all on the "lack of leadership" or stewardship. To many of our players are regressing, and some in multiple areas of their game (like Story & Duran.)

Good post.. Cora looked, and sounded shell shocked, and defeated last night after the game , which was a 180 turn from the night before, and has no answer on what to do next, but show up. 

[Bellhorn04]

1 minute ago, mvp 78 said:

I can't believe moon tricked me into believing that they were gonna be contendahs. I will never forgive him. 

He also said something about the Yanks possibly finishing under .500 IIRC.

[jdc69]

8 minutes ago, Old Red said:

Looking back now would things be better today if the Red Sox had kept Raffy at 3B, put Bregman at 2B, and Masa as DH?

I think so but not just from talent  viewpoint but from a better locker room viewpoint. 

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

11 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

As Cora pointed out, too many chances were handed to the Angel's, last night, and not all of them were called "errors."

It really looked like we improved the defense, over the winter and with Story still healthy in June, but it has not worked out, at all.

With Bregman out, we lost the one sure improved position, although he made 3-4 more errors than I expected in less than 2 months of play.

We can tinker with call-ups and position changes, but as of now, it doesn't seem like there are any in-house solutions that will make the difference needed to make a solid move towards making the playoffs. Game are not won on paper, and Brez is finding that out, firsthand.

I liked most of his winter moves, so I kinda feel I'd be hypocritical, if I berated him up and down.

I don't have any major issues with the way Cora runs the team, but it does seem like the minor ones are piling up, and his insistence on keeping established players at the positions they want to play or have played for a long time has moved into the major issue category, for me. I doubt firing or promoting him would make a difference.

These guys need to play the game like they know how and like they have in the past. It's on them. Hardly anyone is rising to the occasion, and I'm not sure that's all on the "lack of leadership" or stewardship. To many of our players are regressing, and some in multiple areas of their game (like Story & Duran.)

Don't be hard on yourself for wanting them to improve. But you knew like the rest of us over the winter they still didn't have enough rotation or bullpen depth. Relying on retreads for comebacks like Giolito, Hendriks and this year's Paxton -- Sandoval -- was never a good plan. The Sox needed to at least acquire another legitimate starter (most likely by the obvious trade that's still inevitable -- for Duran or Abreu) and another reliever in his prime... but the latter would've cost more money, and Brez already enough shiny new names to sell tickets.

The biggest shock was Houck going from All-Star to bat-finder. The biggest loss was Crawford -- who many here wanted to send to the pen, but who had a better first half last year than any current Sox starter except Crochet.

[Old Red]

3 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

Not even close, IMO. For one, Masa is the biggest question mark on the team, and I suppose in hindsight, since most of the other lesser questions have been answered in the negative, so far, we can speculate that Masa might have been a positive answer, but the guy isn't even playing. I can't imagine a bigger speculative reach than hoping he would have done anything plus.

Masa hasn’t been playing DH since opening day for the Red Sox, because he’s been hurt, and he’s off in exile, only because Raffy has his spot, and probably would have hit better than some of the guys the Red Sox have run up there so far.

[jdc69]

10 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

As Cora pointed out, too many chances were handed to the Angel's, last night, and not all of them were called "errors."

It really looked like we improved the defense, over the winter and with Story still healthy in June, but it has not worked out, at all.

With Bregman out, we lost the one sure improved position, although he made 3-4 more errors than I expected in less than 2 months of play.

We can tinker with call-ups and position changes, but as of now, it doesn't seem like there are any in-house solutions that will make the difference needed to make a solid move towards making the playoffs. Game are not won on paper, and Brez is finding that out, firsthand.

I liked most of his winter moves, so I kinda feel I'd be hypocritical, if I berated him up and down.

I don't have any major issues with the way Cora runs the team, but it does seem like the minor ones are piling up, and his insistence on keeping established players at the positions they want to play or have played for a long time has moved into the major issue category, for me. I doubt firing or promoting him would make a difference.

These guys need to play the game like they know how and like they have in the past. It's on them. Hardly anyone is rising to the occasion, and I'm not sure that's all on the "lack of leadership" or stewardship. To many of our players are regressing, and some in multiple areas of their game (like Story & Duran.)

I don't think you were wrong. To me it sounds like the drama from the beginning of the year aka Bregman/Devers was an unneeded factor for a team that had alot of expectations and pressures to win as it was, what with all the new faces and youth. 

[mvp 78]

23 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

He also said something about the Yanks possibly finishing under .500 IIRC.

Yeah and I believe I pointed out that it was highly unlikely as they haven't been under .500 since '92. 

[mvp 78]

23 minutes ago, jdc69 said:

I think so but not just from talent  viewpoint but from a better locker room viewpoint. 

I don't think the locker room is why they are below .500 aside from the talent inside it. 

[moonslav59]

37 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

He also said something about the Yanks possibly finishing under .500 IIRC.

I'm not sure I said under .500, but I did think they might miss the playoffs. I do think they will have a long bad stretch, at some point, but with the state of the rest of the AL, they look like a sure bet playoff team, now, as well as the division winner.

[moonslav59]

42 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

I can't believe moon tricked me into believing that they were gonna be contendahs. I will never forgive him. 

Aren't you the guy talking people off the ledge, just a couple days ago?

[mvp 78]

2 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

Aren't you the guy talking people off the ledge, just a couple days ago?

Yes and? 

[Old Red]

18 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

I don't think the locker room is why they are below .500 aside from the talent inside it. 

I think most of the noise has come from outside the locker room anyway. 

[mvp 78]

3 minutes ago, Old Red said:

I think most of the noise has come from outside the locker room anyway. 

I agree and think the team gets along just fine. A lot of the issues are media driven, as always and sometimes fed to the media by particular people in the organization. 

[jdc69]

21 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

I don't think the locker room is why they are below .500 aside from the talent inside it. 

Not amongst the players but the players trust in the manager and GM. All symptoms point to them being talented enough except in pressure situations, like errors and driving in runners in scoring position. 

[drewski6]

54 minutes ago, Old Red said:

Good post.. Cora looked, and sounded shell shocked, and defeated last night after the game , which was a 180 turn from the night before, and has no answer on what to do next, but show up. 

Not defending Cora, but I also have no idea what to do/expect from here.

I thought we were going to be good this year :/

[drewski6]

10 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Yes and? 

lotta twists

[dgalehouse]

1 hour ago, TheSplinteredSplendor said:

As Yogi Berra once said, "It gets late early around here".

I think the question to you is, what exactly have the sox shown season to date that leads you to believe they will turn things around?

They have not shown very much. But I do think the team is better than the results have been. A lot of close games where they just could not get the key hit or make the key play.  It wouldn't take too much to improve that. And with three wild cards, any improvement would be reason not to quit on the season. Plus, I just despise all the talk about being " sellers " when it's not yet summer.  What kind of attitude is that?   

[moonslav59]

11 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Yes and? 

You blame me for getting fans hopes up.

[mvp 78]

1 minute ago, jdc69 said:

Not amongst the players but the players trust in the manager and GM. All symptoms point to them being talented enough except in pressure situations, like errors and driving in runners in scoring position. 

I'm not sure the talent is there in non-pressure situations. I think fans give these guys too much credit. The starting rotation is crap right now. The lineup is more top heavy than a Russ Meyer's film. The defense has been putrid for years. The bullpen has some pieces, but is mostly just career journeymen. As fans, we want to believe there is something there. We want to believe it's not going to be a lost summer. I think the writing is on the wall. Something DRASTIC would have to change for me to believe differently at this point. 

[Old Red]

6 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

I agree and think the team gets along just fine. A lot of the issues are media driven, as always and sometimes fed to the media by particular people in the organization. 

Lots of young guys in that clubhouse too.

[mvp 78]

2 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

Not defending Cora, but I also have no idea what to do/expect from here.

I thought we were going to be good this year :/

We got bamboozled. 

[mvp 78]

1 minute ago, moonslav59 said:

You blame me for getting fans hopes up.

You created a "realistic view" and pumped these guys up. I don't know what to say. Time to retire the "realistic view" threads? 

[Old Red]

2 minutes ago, dgalehouse said:

They have not shown very much. But I do think the team is better than the results have been. A lot of close games where they just could not get the key hit or make the key play.  It wouldn't take too much to improve that. And with three wild cards, any improvement would be reason not to quit on the season. Plus, I just despise all the talk about being " sellers " when it's not yet summer.  What kind of attitude is that?   

141 runners LOB in all those 1 run defeats is one big area that could be improved on with a big hit here, and there.

[mvp 78]

1 minute ago, Old Red said:

Lots of young guys in that clubhouse too.

I was hopeful that bringing a guy like Bregman would get them to learn how to create a winning culture. Guess not. 

[Old Red]

Just now, mvp 78 said:

I was hopeful that bringing a guy like Bregman would get them to learn how to create a winning culture. Guess not. 

In this case it’s going to take more than 1 guy, and I don’t know who that 1 guy would, or could be,

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Great to see team player Devers taking grounders at SS the last few days.

[moonslav59]

21 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

You created a "realistic view" and pumped these guys up. I don't know what to say. Time to retire the "realistic view" threads? 

You are still selling the Kool-Aid. Which is worse?

(You must still think being contenders is "realistic.")

[dgalehouse]

The upcoming series with the Yankees is a good test. The Sox cannot afford to go into the Bronx and get embarrassed this weekend. They are going to have to raise their game and provide some hope to the fans, as well as to management.  They do catch a bit of a break in that they won't see Fried and the Yankee's closer, Weaver, is now on the I.L.  

[moonslav59]

It's interesting to see the difference between the AL and NL, one being...

In the AL, there are two clear top teams (DET & NYY) and then 10 teams within 6 games of each other (-6 to -11.5 from DET at the top.) There are just 3 teams over 15 games behind DET (BAL, OAK and CWS.)

In the NL, there are 5 pretty clear front runners bunched up by a 2.5 game differential. (CHC, NYM, PHI, LAD, SDP) There are 7 teams bunched in the middle and within 6 games of each other- led by the surprising Cards at 33-27. Like the AL, there are 3 teams pretty much out of it (MIA, PIT and COL.)

5 of the top 7 teams are in the NL.

10 of 17 middle of the pack teams are in the AL.

Only 6 teams look dead in the water, and the Braves and Sox are the two teams closest to those 6.

The Sox are 8 games behind the top tier or 7 teams and 4 games ahead of the bottom tier of 6.