Red Sox: Off Season 2024-2025

[moonslav59]

10 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Pure unfounded speculation on those names, there was no reportage.  I suppose you can guess that everyone was in on everyone.

Pretty sure we didn't outbid the Yanks on Soto.  Their final offer was reported as $760 million.  I believe the Sox dropped out at around $700 million.

I doubt we outbid the Yanks on Soto, too, but we'll never know, if we might have, if Cohen wasn't forcing us to stop bidding.

[Bellhorn04]

2 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

I doubt we outbid the Yanks on Soto, too, but we'll never know, if we might have, if Cohen wasn't forcing us to stop bidding.

Cohen didn't force us to stop bidding.  Henry had just seen enough.  Same thing with Fried, they fell way short on that too.

I'm not saying they did the wrong thing, I'm just saying they have never outbid the Yanks in any significant reported  competition for a player.    

[moonslav59]

46 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Cohen didn't force us to stop bidding.  Henry had just seen enough.  Same thing with Fried, they fell way short on that too.

I'm not saying they did the wrong thing, I'm just saying they have never outbid the Yanks in any significant reported  competition for a player.    

I thought we could never outbid Cohen, and now you say it wasn't Cohen.

On outbidding the Yanks, too much is unknown, but yes, I do not think there has been any reported outbid by JH. Who knows. There was a stretch where we were spnding more than everyone.

[Bellhorn04]

4 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

I thought we could never outbid Cohen, and now you say it wasn't Cohen.

When I said we couldn't outbid Cohen, I meant we couldn't outbid him without reaching an amount that was much crazier/stupider than John Henry would be willing to reach.  And that's exactly what happened.

But Steve Cohen didn't stop John Henry.  John Henry stopped John Henry.

I said the Red Sox only shot was if Soto really wanted to play for the Sox.  He was all about the money so we had no shot.

[moonslav59]

14 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

When I said we couldn't outbid Cohen, I meant we couldn't outbid him without reaching an amount that was much crazier/stupider than John Henry would be willing to reach.  And that's exactly what happened.

But Steve Cohen didn't stop John Henry.  John Henry stopped John Henry.

I said the Red Sox only shot was if Soto really wanted to play for the Sox.  He was all about the money so we had no shot.

This did not clear it up for me.

I thought, all along, it was about nobody can outbid Cohen. It did not matter how far JH went.

[Bellhorn04]

8 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

This did not clear it up for me.

I thought, all along, it was about nobody can outbid Cohen. It did not matter how far JH went.

Well, it's a misunderstanding then.

All I really meant was that if Cohen decided he was prepared to get really stupid - which he obviously was - Henry would simply toss in the towel.

But it's also true that Cohen has more money than Henry, so it's true that he could always be the high bidder.

[moonslav59]

30 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Well, it's a misunderstanding then.

All I really meant was that if Cohen decided he was prepared to get really stupid - which he obviously was - Henry would simply toss in the towel.

But it's also true that Cohen has more money than Henry, so it's true that he could always be the high bidder.

I don't think it's so simple that the richest guy will always outbid the other less rich guy. If JH bid $800M, I'm not sure Cohen goes higher. In that sense, JH chose to bow out.

My point was that even if Cohen wants a few guys JH wants, it does not mean he will treat every bidding war like Soto's. He may think, it's not worth it and pivot to someone else he likes, too. In other words, I don't think it's a done deal on every FA.

Since Cohen got Soto and the Yanks got Fried, I'm not so sure the bidding dynamic will be the same, if the two NY teams are in on Burnes, Bregman, Teoscar, Santander or anyone else the Sox are also bidding on. They both got their prize, and may not feel it is worth it to one up JH on one of these guys.

While it may still be true, if they will never be outbid, eventually JH will drop out, but we don't know if that will apply to every FA 2 or 3 of else teams are seeking. Cohen does have a history of backing off, at times, and the Yanks have been roasted by fans for many years for not going one step further on spending.

I just don't think it's a foregone conclusion we lose every bidding war, going forward. If we do get one, you'll say it's only because the two NY teams didn't really want the guy, and we did not outbid them.

[Bellhorn04]

8 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

I don't think it's so simple that the richest guy will always outbid the other less rich guy. If JH bid $800M, I'm not sure Cohen goes higher. In that sense, JH chose to bow out.

My point was that even if Cohen wants a few guys JH wants, it does not mean he will treat every bidding war like Soto's. He may think, it's not worth it and pivot to someone else he likes, too. In other words, I don't think it's a done deal on every FA.

Since Cohen got Soto and the Yanks got Fried, I'm not so sure the bidding dynamic will be the same, if the two NY teams are in on Burnes, Bregman, Teoscar, Santander or anyone else the Sox are also bidding on. They both got their prize, and may not feel it is worth it to one up JH on one of these guys.

While it may still be true, if they will never be outbid, eventually JH will drop out, but we don't know if that will apply to every FA 2 or 3 of else teams are seeking. Cohen does have a history of backing off, at times, and the Yanks have been roasted by fans for many years for not going one step further on spending.

I just don't think it's a foregone conclusion we lose every bidding war, going forward. If we do get one, you'll say it's only because the two NY teams didn't really want the guy, and we did not outbid them.

Whatever you want to think.  They just tossed in the towel twice to NY on Soto and Fried, and as much as I don't really want to quote STORK, the facts are not in dispute.

[Hugh2]

15 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

I doubt we outbid the Yanks on Soto, too, but we'll never know, if we might have, if Cohen wasn't forcing us to stop bidding.

The Yankees bid $760 million, the Sox final bid was reportedly around $700 million.  So yes, I'd say they outbid us. 

[moonslav59]

43 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Whatever you want to think.  They just tossed in the towel twice to NY on Soto and Fried, and as much as I don't really want to quote STORK, the facts are not in dispute.

I'm not saying we have outbid them, recently.

I'm not sure who of the 3 teams you mentioned are still in on guys we are currently talking to. I'm just saying, the next guys are the big 3's second choices, so maybe JH can and will make the highest bid. We just don't know. To me, it's more about Henry drawing lines than his ability to out bid everyone else.

Reports were that not many other teams were bidding near what the Sox did on Yoshida and Story. Maybe we bid against ourselves, but those two guys are examples, where we identified someone we wanted and we bid highly for them. (Some say nobody else was close on Yoshida. Story was a late signing with an injury issue.) Granted, I don't think any of the big 3 were in on those two, but I'm not sure about JD, Price and Nate. We could also go way back to Lackey, Damon and others, but that was before the Mets were the Mets.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Yoan Moncada was the big prize coming out of Cuba around 10 years ago. Boston outbid the Yankees, and residuals helped the Red Sox win the 2018 World Series.

[Duran Is The Man]

1 hour ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Whatever you want to think.  They just tossed in the towel twice to NY on Soto and Fried, and as much as I don't really want to quote STORK, the facts are not in dispute.

Phantom Bidding. they bid knowing they would ultimately be outbid.

[moonslav59]

1 hour ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

Yoan Moncada was the big prize coming out of Cuba around 10 years ago. Boston outbid the Yankees, and residuals helped the Red Sox win the 2018 World Series.

I forgot about him.

We also won the Dice-K silent auction- not sure who else made serious bids.

[Bellhorn04]

4 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

I forgot about him.

We also won the Dice-K silent auction- not sure who else made serious bids.

Yes, they get ballsy on the silent auctions for some reason.  We need more of them LOL

 

[moonslav59]

20 minutes ago, Duran Is The Man said:

Phantom Bidding. they bid knowing they would ultimately be outbid.

That very well may be the reality, but it is hard to know just how high other teams will go. I'm not sure anyone expected $700M, even after the signing of two-way Ohtani.

No doubt, we lost out to the Mets with Soto and the Yanks with Fried and with the Dodgers on a few guys, over the years. JH is famous for setting a line and not crossing it- more so with his own vets reaching free agency than guys he trades for and extends (Schilling, Beckett, Agon, Porcello and Nate.) He has won a few bids, like Foulke, Damon, Dice-K, Price, JD, Story and Yoshida, but since the Yanks, Mets and Dodgers were not involved, I guess they don't count.

[Hugh2]

Lets say the Mets and Yankees never increased their last offers and Soto decided he wanted to play in Boston for $700 million? what do you guys think would have happened?

I think he would have signed in Boston for $700 million. 

[Duran Is The Man]

Have the A's spent more money this offseason than the Red Sox or is that my imagination?

[Hugh2]

1 minute ago, Duran Is The Man said:

Have the A's spent more money this offseason than the Red Sox or is that my imagination?

Yes, but they are in some trouble and are effectively being forced to spend money. 

Maybe we can convince them to take on Yoshida or Giolito.  I'd imagine they might be having trouble attracting talent. 

[mvp 78]

Just now, Hugh2 said:

Yes, but they are in some trouble and are effectively being forced to spend money. 

Maybe we can convince them to take on Yoshida or Giolito.  I'd imagine they might be having trouble attracting talent. 

BUT it's also the offseason where this ownership needed to bring the fanbase back in. Simply trading for Crochet isn't going to do it. They needed to make a big splash $$$ wise on a real FA to show their true investment in the team. 

[Hugh2]

1 minute ago, mvp 78 said:

BUT it's also the offseason where this ownership needed to bring the fanbase back in. Simply trading for Crochet isn't going to do it. They needed to make a big splash $$$ wise on a real FA to show their true investment in the team. 

Agreed, my inner desires are a big name pitcher to augment with Crochet at the top of the rotation. 

[Duran Is The Man]

6 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

BUT it's also the offseason where this ownership needed to bring the fanbase back in. Simply trading for Crochet isn't going to do it. They needed to make a big splash $$$ wise on a real FA to show their true investment in the team. 

fact check: true

[moonslav59]

17 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

BUT it's also the offseason where this ownership needed to bring the fanbase back in. Simply trading for Crochet isn't going to do it. They needed to make a big splash $$$ wise on a real FA to show their true investment in the team. 

It's not too late, but we are down to a handful of big splash players, and some seem like no chance signings, like Scott.

Burnes

Bregman

Teoscar

No Go: Scott, Alonso & Walker

 

Santander & Flaherty  (borderline big splash)

Next Tier: Manaea, Hoffman and some up for debate

[mvp 78]

18 minutes ago, Hugh2 said:

Agreed, my inner desires are a big name pitcher to augment with Crochet at the top of the rotation. 

Well, maybe all the other teams will run out of money and the Burnes market will dry up? 

[mvp 78]

I will be unmoved by a Teoscar or Bregman signing. 

[Hugh2]

21 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Well, maybe all the other teams will run out of money and the Burnes market will dry up? 

Or maybe John Henry the Fenway Grinch grows some balls and actually wins a bid for a premium player 

[moonslav59]

23 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

I will be unmoved by a Teoscar or Bregman signing. 

I'm not excited about either, as well, but they would be significant additions. "Big Splash:" probably not.

I'd like to see Burnes & Scott and a LHB trade for a RHB.

[Bellhorn04]

1 hour ago, Hugh2 said:

Lets say the Mets and Yankees never increased their last offers and Soto decided he wanted to play in Boston for $700 million? what do you guys think would have happened?

I think he would have signed in Boston for $700 million. 

Well, it was my theory that our only shot was if he really bought into the Dominican Connection stuff.

Obviously that was not the case.

[notin]

7 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Well, it was my theory that our only shot was if he really bought into the Dominican Connection stuff.

Obviously that was not the case.

And it was a long shot at best, given the Union preference that players take the largest offer…

[mvp 78]

27 minutes ago, Hugh2 said:

Or maybe John Henry the Fenway Grinch grows some balls and actually wins a bid for a premium player 

Needs to be bullied harder. 

[Hugh2]

14 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Well, it was my theory that our only shot was if he really bought into the Dominican Connection stuff.

Obviously that was not the case.

He very well may have for $765 million