A Realistic View of 2024: Part II

[Elktonnick]

Nobody said he was the best in MLB, "in his day," so how is he "over rated?"

 

BTW, I am not arguing JBJ was better than Piersall. I have no way of knowing or even formulating an opinion on who was better.

 

I'm not even sure JBJ was the best in my time following MLB. To me, it's close between JBJ, Lynn and Crisp with Kike's sample size being too small to be included.

 

 

Check the forum history I think you will find there were those who called JBJ the best in MLB just as I recall some unnamed soul called Cora the best manager in Red Sox history after one year.

[Old Red]

Check the forum history I think you will find there were those who called JBJ the best in MLB just as I recall some unnamed soul called Cora the best manager in Red Sox history after one year.

 

Being a Folk Hero does happen pretty quick on here. Kike was one, but if Cora was the best Manager after just one year he must have beaten out John Farrell who was pretty good after 1 year also.🙈

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Check the forum history I think you will find there were those who called JBJ the best in MLB just as I recall some unnamed soul called Cora the best manager in Red Sox history after one year.

 

Just curious: who was the best Red Sox rightfielder you saw?

 

I admired Dewey Evans, and his arm had such a rep that in the second half of his career, base coaches wouldn't even let runners test it. But no RF in baseball had the range of Mookie Betts in Boston. I'll go with Marcus -- and Buck Showalter, who said he was the best in his lifetime.

[Bellhorn04]

Nah, then you’d have to put in a level of difficulty like the Olympics.

 

We can do that.

[Old Red]

Just curious: who was the best Red Sox rightfielder you saw?

 

I admired Dewey Evans, and his arm had such a rep that in the second half of his career, base coaches wouldn't even let runners test it. But no RF in baseball had the range of Mookie Betts in Boston. I'll go with Marcus -- and Buck Showalter, who said he was the best in his lifetime.

 

Evans, and Lynne. Mookie, and JBJ. Both great.

[Bellhorn04]

Evans, and Lynne.

 

It's actually Evanse and Lynn.

[notin]

It's actually Evanse and Lynn.

 

If anyone was going to get more E’s in that outfield, it was Ricee…

[moonslav59]

Check the forum history I think you will find there were those who called JBJ the best in MLB...

 

You could be right.

 

I think some/many just felt he was the best defensive Sox CF'er they'd ever seen. Probably, someone said the best in MLB, in his time. I'm not sure that warrants the "over rated" label.

[moonslav59]

It's actually Evanse and Lynn.

 

In RF?

[Old Red]

JBJ is trying to make a comeback with the Long Island Ducks.

[notin]

You could be right.

 

I think some/many just felt he was the best defensive Sox CF'er they'd ever seen. Probably, someone said the best in MLB, in his time. I'm not sure that warrants the "over rated" label.

 

I can go with best Sox CF I've ever seen. Unless someone is more aware of whom I have seen as a CF, it is hard to say that makes him overrated.

 

Granted, my recollections of Lynn are from before I knew or cared about defense. So who are my other candidates? Armas? Damon? Burks? Crisp? Ellsbury? Steve "Psycho" Lyons?

 

Darren Lewis came here with a rep as an outstanding defender, and even had some hardware, but I just don't recall anything special about him (which means nothing). Ditto Damon Buford...

[Old Red]

I can go with best Sox CF I've ever seen. Unless someone is more aware of whom I have seen as a CF, it is hard to say that makes him overrated.

 

Granted, my recollections of Lynn are from before I knew or cared about defense. So who are my other candidates? Armas? Damon? Burks? Crisp? Ellsbury? Steve "Psycho" Lyons?

 

Darren Lewis came here with a rep as an outstanding defender, and even had some hardware, but I just don't recall anything special about him (which means nothing). Ditto Damon Buford...

 

Reggie Smith was a good CF with a cannon for an arm.Rick Miller was a good defensive CF also.

[mvp 78]

Check the forum history I think you will find there were those who called JBJ the best in MLB just as I recall some unnamed soul called Cora the best manager in Red Sox history after one year.

 

Keirmaier

2015 38 DRS

2016 25 DRS

2017 20 DRS

 

Pillar

2015 16 DRS

2016 22 DRS

2017 14 DRS

 

JBJ wasn't even the best in his division. Apologies to slasher tho!

[mvp 78]

Being a Folk Hero does happen pretty quick on here. Kike was one, but if Cora was the best Manager after just one year he must have beaten out John Farrell who was pretty good after 1 year also.🙈

 

Not sure you could find many people lauding Farrell in 2013. Cora showed that he was a very good manager. He needs to win another WS before he can step in Tito's shoes though.

[Bellhorn04]

Not sure you could find many people lauding Farrell in 2013. Cora showed that he was a very good manager. He needs to win another WS before he can step in Tito's shoes though.

 

Which is probably a little unfair to Farrell, considering the season that team had. I think he just wasn't the most likable guy.

[Old Red]

Not sure you could find many people lauding Farrell in 2013. Cora showed that he was a very good manager. He needs to win another WS before he can step in Tito's shoes though.

 

The Cora thing has been beaten to death many times. I know most on here like him. I know 700 does not. I’ve stated before that I would have never hired Cora back, but I like Cora, and think he is a good manager, but they can win with him when they have a GREAT team, which they did, and they can lose with him when they have a bad team, which they have done. My point about Farrell was he won in his first year like Cora did with less talent.

[moonslav59]

I can go with best Sox CF I've ever seen. Unless someone is more aware of whom I have seen as a CF, it is hard to say that makes him overrated.

 

Granted, my recollections of Lynn are from before I knew or cared about defense. So who are my other candidates? Armas? Damon? Burks? Crisp? Ellsbury? Steve "Psycho" Lyons?

 

Darren Lewis came here with a rep as an outstanding defender, and even had some hardware, but I just don't recall anything special about him (which means nothing). Ditto Damon Buford...

 

So many Sox CF'ers who played good to very good defense, just played here for a short time, so it is hard to include them in our rankings. Many of us are looking at wildly different time frames, when saying "the best I've ever seen."

 

Certainly, JBJ had a pretty long run of excellent defense. I think he was hampered by making difficult plays look easy, and didn't make a ton of diving and spectacular looking plays.

 

Lynn got hurt and was traded, too early in his time with the Sox. Lewis, Crisp and several others did not play long enough with BOS to get the a lot of support on being the "best."

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I can go with best Sox CF I've ever seen. Unless someone is more aware of whom I have seen as a CF, it is hard to say that makes him overrated.

 

Granted, my recollections of Lynn are from before I knew or cared about defense. So who are my other candidates? Armas? Damon? Burks? Crisp? Ellsbury? Steve "Psycho" Lyons?

 

Darren Lewis came here with a rep as an outstanding defender, and even had some hardware, but I just don't recall anything special about him (which means nothing). Ditto Damon Buford...

 

Posters shouldn't have to start every post with "In my opinion" -- but shouldn't assume theirs is gospel, either.

 

But you're right, no one can know what you see, even sitting next to you, because you might turn your head and miss a play (busy looking in the stands, the way Mantle did in Ball Four).

 

Thus, Ben Intendi was the best defensive Sox leftfielder since Yaz. Beni > Rice, Greenwell, O'Leary, Manny, Bay, Nava, Gomes, Crawford, Hanley, Holt and Dugie. Is that ever a grim list...

[notin]

Not sure you could find many people lauding Farrell in 2013. Cora showed that he was a very good manager. He needs to win another WS before he can step in Tito's shoes though.

 

Farrell might be a bit underappreciated. He lead the Sox to more AL East titles than any other manager in team history, including Francona (who, IMO, is the clear best given he actually lead the Sox during some serious prime powerhouse Yankee seasons).

 

But if Dombrowski gets praised or winning 3 AL East titles, Farrell should be as well...

[moonslav59]

Posters shouldn't have to start every post with "In my opinion" -- but shouldn't assume theirs is gospel, either.

 

But you're right, no one can know what you see, even sitting next to you, because you might turn your head and miss a play (busy looking in the stands, the way Mantle did in Ball Four).

 

Thus, Ben Intendi was the best defensive Sox leftfielder since Yaz. Beni > Rice, Greenwell, O'Leary, Manny, Bay, Nava, Gomes, Crawford, Hanley, Holt and Dugie. Is that ever a grim list...

 

Good point.

 

And when someone say JBJ was the not best defensive CF'er in MLB in his era, he might still have been better than Piersall, who might very well have been the best of his era.

[mvp 78]

Which is probably a little unfair to Farrell, considering the season that team had. I think he just wasn't the most likable guy.

 

Jessica Moran liked him well enough... until she got thrown under the bus and was never heard from again.

[mvp 78]

Posters shouldn't have to start every post with "In my opinion" -- but shouldn't assume theirs is gospel, either.

 

But you're right, no one can know what you see, even sitting next to you, because you might turn your head and miss a play (busy looking in the stands, the way Mantle did in Ball Four).

 

Thus, Ben Intendi was the best defensive Sox leftfielder since Yaz. Beni > Rice, Greenwell, O'Leary, Manny, Bay, Nava, Gomes, Crawford, Hanley, Holt and Dugie. Is that ever a grim list...

 

In my opinion, Manny was massively UNDERRATED as a LFer.

[mvp 78]

Farrell might be a bit underappreciated. He lead the Sox to more AL East titles than any other manager in team history, including Francona (who, IMO, is the clear best given he actually lead the Sox during some serious prime powerhouse Yankee seasons).

 

But if Dombrowski gets praised or winning 3 AL East titles, Farrell should be as well...

 

If Cora or Francoma had those clubs, you would have had similar or better results.

[Elktonnick]

Just curious: who was the best Red Sox rightfielder you saw?

 

I admired Dewey Evans, and his arm had such a rep that in the second half of his career, base coaches wouldn't even let runners test it. But no RF in baseball had the range of Mookie Betts in Boston. I'll go with Marcus -- and Buck Showalter, who said he was the best in his lifetime.

Betts overall, Evans best arm, but Jackie Jensen was very good as well. Betts Jensen one and two. Unfortunately Jensen has a pathological fear of flying so he prematurely retired.

[vegasbob]

Great catch, but he wasn't running full speed the way Lynn had to. I think the ball Lynn caught was on a lower trajectory and got out there quicker.

 

Tauchman's catch would have been routine in Boston's deeper CF . I didn't see Tris Speaker play, but did see Piersall , Lynn, JBJ , Duran and now Rafaela. There's just no comparison between them. Speaker actually made a considerable number of errors , mostly attributable to the tiny gloves they had compared to today's cestas. 1950's era pitching by Boston did give JP a lot more chances. Lynn played for 5 teams, so if he was that good surely someone would have locked him up to a 10 yr, $300 million deal, just not Boston though. JBJ was smooth and slick to the spot the parabolic arc of the ball would fall to Earth , like Ziggy Stardust.

[notin]

If Cora or Francoma had those clubs, you would have had similar or better results.

 

2013 could not have turned out better.

 

And in 2017, Farrell was taken out of the post-season by the Cheatin' Astros. Not fair to hold that against him.

 

That only leaves 2016 as a cahnce for improvement.

 

Farrell did have a huge advantage that the 2016 and 2017 teams won the AL East with only 93 wins, and the division almost never goes to a team with that low of a win total. (I believe the 2015 Blue Jays were the only other team to take the East with so few wins since the league split into 3 divisions, suggesting Farrell might have been managing the Sox at the weakest point in division history.)

[notin]

Tauchman's catch would have been routine in Boston's deeper CF . I didn't see Tris Speaker play, but did see Piersall , Lynn, JBJ , Duran and now Rafaela. There's just no comparison between them. Speaker actually made a considerable number of errors , mostly attributable to the tiny gloves they had compared to today's cestas. 1950's era pitching by Boston did give JP a lot more chances. Lynn played for 5 teams, so if he was that good surely someone would have locked him up to a 10 yr, $300 million deal, just not Boston though. JBJ was smooth and slick to the spot the parabolic arc of the ball would fall to Earth , like Ziggy Stardust.

 

Maximum points awarded not only for the David Bowie reference, but also for using the clear best Bowie album to make that reference....

[notin]

Tauchman's catch would have been routine in Boston's deeper CF . I didn't see Tris Speaker play, but did see Piersall , Lynn, JBJ , Duran and now Rafaela. There's just no comparison between them. Speaker actually made a considerable number of errors , mostly attributable to the tiny gloves they had compared to today's cestas. 1950's era pitching by Boston did give JP a lot more chances. Lynn played for 5 teams, so if he was that good surely someone would have locked him up to a 10 yr, $300 million deal, just not Boston though. JBJ was smooth and slick to the spot the parabolic arc of the ball would fall to Earth , like Ziggy Stardust.

 

The ballpark is irrelevant, by the way. Not Tauchman's nor Alec Burleson's (the hitter) fault they put the wall where they put the wall.

 

Also, Tauchman's catch, while less spectacular than many, at least falls into the "Back Yard Scenario" that we all dreamed up as kids.

 

"OK, facing your arch-rival with 2 outs, bottom of the ninth, tying run on base...."

 

To quote Humphrey Bogart - "that's the stuff dreams are made of..."

Edited April 5, 2024 by notin

[vegasbob]

Maximum points awarded not only for the David Bowie reference, but also for using the clear best Bowie album to make that reference....

 

Any plaudits coming from you, oh Deity, are more special than making the catch I made to get the Dal-Rich Rebels the Texas state championship at the Pepsi Games in 1988. Still have the ball !

[notin]

Posters shouldn't have to start every post with "In my opinion" -- but shouldn't assume theirs is gospel, either.

But you're right, no one can know what you see, even sitting next to you, because you might turn your head and miss a play (busy looking in the stands, the way Mantle did in Ball Four).

 

Thus, Ben Intendi was the best defensive Sox leftfielder since Yaz. Beni > Rice, Greenwell, O'Leary, Manny, Bay, Nava, Gomes, Crawford, Hanley, Holt and Dugie. Is that ever a grim list...

 

 

But there is a big difference between "best defensive centerfielder I've ever seen" and "best defensive centerfielder ever". One of them is completely uncontestable; the other is subject for debate...