Giolito Injured

[Tedballgame]

Giolito may have a partial tear of his UCL and may need season ending surgery. What a disaster and a horrible signing!!!! Par for the course for this organization!!!

[redsoxrules]

That's a great signing. 0 ERA for the year

[notin]

That's a great signing. 0 ERA for the year

 

Unfortunately not mathematically correct unless you have found a way to divide by his 0 IP...

[vegasbob]

Bloom's curse swallows Breslow alive. The only mound move for 2024 turns into a major bowel movement . J. Henry is yelling all the way to Ft. Myers as he schools his FO on signing over 30 year old pitchers . Could Giolito's rough 2023 season been any sort of precursor to arm trouble ? The dreaded forearm tightness predictor of UCL or did this injury just pop up during a side session ?

[notin]

Bloom's curse swallows Breslow alive. The only mound move for 2024 turns into a major bowel movement . J. Henry is yelling all the way to Ft. Myers as he schools his FO on signing over 30 year old pitchers . Could Giolito's rough 2023 season been any sort of precursor to arm trouble ? The dreaded forearm tightness predictor of UCL or did this injury just pop up during a side session ?

 

He did receive a physical before signing his deal. I would think these MLB team physicians are extremely practiced in looking at pitching elbows and shoulders for damage. My understanding is there is no such thing as a clean MRI for an MLB pitcher, but they should know what to look for by now...

[Bellhorn04]

He did receive a physical before signing his deal. I would think these MLB team physicians are extremely practiced in looking at pitching elbows and shoulders for damage. My understanding is there is no such thing as a clean MRI for an MLB pitcher, but they should know what to look for by now...

 

Sale passed his physical too.

[notin]

Sale passed his physical too.

 

And then he went on to pitch 147 innings for the Sox the following season. This case doesn't support your theory very well...

[Bellhorn04]

And then he went on to pitch 147 innings for the Sox the following season. This case doesn't support your theory very well...

 

So you agree now that the Sale signing was defensible?

[notin]

So you agree now that the Sale signing was defensible?

 

No. I still thought it was bad because he looked injured. Just because he survived one year of a 5 year deal with his lowest IP total of his career doesn’t justify it.

 

At the end of 2018, did you look at Sale and think “this guy clearly can pitch for 5 more years?”

 

Sale issued time in 2018 and last 147 innings. Giolito did throw 184 IP last year. That’s a big difference…y

[moonslav59]

No. I still thought it was bad because he looked injured. Just because he survived one year of a 5 year deal with his lowest IP total of his career doesn’t justify it.

 

At the end of 2018, did you look at Sale and think “this guy clearly can pitch for 5 more years?”

 

Sale issued time in 2018 and last 147 innings. Giolito did throw 184 IP last year. That’s a big difference…y

 

I liked the extension, because it looked like we gave him 4 years of pay for a 5 year deal. I expected him to miss one year of the five.

 

I was way wrong.

[notin]

I liked the extension, because it looked like we gave him 4 years of pay for a 5 year deal. I expected him to miss one year of the five.

 

I was way wrong.

 

I didn’t like it from Day One. It looked like a pittance compared to what the notoriously underpaid Sale would get in free agency if he was healthy. And that screamed to me that he knew he wasn’t healthy enough to get a Price/Greinke contract…

[Bellhorn04]

I didn’t like it from Day One. It looked like a pittance compared to what the notoriously underpaid Sale would get in free agency if he was healthy. And that screamed to me that he knew he wasn’t healthy enough to get a Price/Greinke contract…

 

So he knew he was pitching injured all through those 147 innings in 2019? He must have been crazy.

[cp176]

I liked the extension, because it looked like we gave him 4 years of pay for a 5 year deal. I expected him to miss one year of the five.

 

I was way wrong.

 

I loved the initial deal as well as the extension and I wish that he was still here.

[wyo-sox]

Giolito may have a partial tear of his UCL and may need season ending surgery. What a disaster and a horrible signing!!!! Par for the course for this organization!!!

 

.... and you just know Sale will have a productive injury free season in Atlanta also.

[Bellhorn04]

To repeat what I said in another thread:

 

This is all Henry's fault, actually. His penny-pinching keeps forcing his CBO's into making moves for damaged or inferior goods like this.

[moonslav59]

To repeat what I said in another thread:

 

This is all Henry's fault, actually. His penny-pinching keeps forcing his CBO's into making moves for damaged or inferior goods like this.

 

No. Haven't you heard? It's the GMs trying to prove to JH they don't need his money.

[notin]

So he knew he was pitching injured all through those 147 innings in 2019? He must have been crazy.

 

He probably did exactly what you said - tried to pitch through some pain.

 

Didn’t it strike you as odd that Sale, who was known for being underpaid his whole career, agreed to another extension in which he was clearly going to be underpaid? And did so just 8 months before free agency? If he didn’t know he was hurt then, he clearly strongly suspected his 2019 was not going to help his case for a big money deal…

[Randy Red Sox]

everyone will be happy to know that Sale has tossed 4.2 scoreless innings with 9 K's this spring in his 2 starts

[moonslav59]

He probably did exactly what you said - tried to pitch through some pain.

 

Didn’t it strike you as odd that Sale, who was known for being underpaid his whole career, agreed to another extension in which he was clearly going to be underpaid? And did so just 8 months before free agency? If he didn’t know he was hurt then, he clearly strongly suspected his 2019 was not going to help his case for a big money deal…

 

I think both sides believed it was likely he'd miss a full year out of the 5- maybe 1.5 seasons.

 

They agreed on an amount that reflected that belief.

 

I doubt either side knew he'd only start 31 out of a possible 110 starts (~28%) in the first 4 seasons of the 5 season deal.

 

I realize it was a big if that Sale would be Chris Freakin' Sale for the other 3.5 to 4 seasons out of the 5, but if he was, he'd have been worth about $145M/4.

 

It turns out the deal sucked. We might have been able to keep Betts or Bogey, instead. Who knows.

 

The fact is, we have not done very well signing or extending SP'ers for about the last decade or so.

 

Giolito

Kluber

Wacha

Hill

Richards

M Perez II

M Perez I

Nate (Ext)

Sale (Ext)

Porcello (Ext)

Price

Miley (10 years ago)

 

I think the ones just over 10 years ago were Dempster & Lackey with the Beckett extension.

 

Am I missing any major signings or extensions of SP'ers in the last 10-12 years?

 

[Hugh2]

And then he went on to pitch 147 innings for the Sox the following season. This case doesn't support your theory very well...

 

I'm not sure what his theory was?

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I think both sides believed it was likely he'd miss a full year out of the 5- maybe 1.5 seasons.

 

They agreed on an amount that reflected that belief.

 

I doubt either side knew he'd only start 31 out of a possible 110 starts (~28%) in the first 4 seasons of the 5 season deal.

 

I realize it was a big if that Sale would be Chris Freakin' Sale for the other 3.5 to 4 seasons out of the 5, but if he was, he'd have been worth about $145M/4.

 

It turns out the deal sucked. We might have been able to keep Betts or Bogey, instead. Who knows.

 

The fact is, we have not done very well signing or extending SP'ers for about the last decade or so.

 

Giolito

Kluber

Wacha

Hill

Richards

M Perez II

M Perez I

Nate (Ext)

Sale (Ext)

Porcello (Ext)

Price

Miley (10 years ago)

 

I think the ones just over 10 years ago were Dempster & Lackey with the Beckett extension.

 

Am I missing any major signings or extensions of SP'ers in the last 10-12 years?

 

 

Wacha contributed to 25 team wins for two clubs that were below-.500 combined the past two seasons. That's 25% more team wins than are credited to Red Sox leader Nick Pivetta in the same span.

 

At this point in what is obviously nothing but a Boston rebuild, maybe the most prudent move for Breslow is to make that painful trade he suggested in his introductory presser. If the Sox really think Story is their shortstop for the next four years of his contract, then Marcelo Mayer is their best chip.

 

My first phone call would be to the Braves, where 10 of Atlanta's top 15 prospects are pitchers. The Braves have two Top 100 pitchers, at #69 and #90. Both of those for #15 Mayer was called a slight overpay by BTV, but with "a high probability it would be accepted..."

[Hugh2]

While it's certainly true injuries can be predictable, as they can be chronic issues that fester up over time, often they're acute injuries in which a physical is going to show nothing wrong.

 

This is part of the sport, and it's almost expected nowadays that every pitcher is going to need some kind of surgery at some point in their career.

 

It just really sucks when it happen to a guy you just signed.

 

I think the question now is. Does Giolitos injury make (or should it make) the Sox more desperate to sign someone like Montgomery? or does it make them more likely to save their bullets for another day and say "f*** it" lets roll with what we have and see what we have with these kids, and then we might know who we want to build around for 2025 and beyond?????

 

I say you split the difference, you have an idea of what you think Jordan is worth, and clearly no other team has beat you to it, so you stand your ground. He can help in 2024 and beyond, but it's not worth overpaying at this point for anyone.

[Bellhorn04]

I'm not sure what his theory was?

 

Pretty simple. My theory was that Giolito may have been pitching hurt the last 2 months of 2023 which resulted in his horrific numbers. Then we got into the comparison with Sale.

[Bellhorn04]

I think the question now is. Does Giolitos injury make (or should it make) the Sox more desperate to sign someone like Montgomery? or does it make them more likely to save their bullets for another day and say "f*** it" lets roll with what we have and see what we have with these kids, and then we might know who we want to build around for 2025 and beyond?????

 

Unfortunately, I think we all know what the answer is according to the Sox front office.

[Hugh2]

Pretty simple. My theory was that Giolito may have been pitching hurt the last 2 months of 2023 which resulted in his horrific numbers. Then we got into the comparison with Sale.

 

If this is true, it would have shown up on a physical. If he was already hurt, sure it may be true.

 

He was also hit with a divorce and had his wife leave him, which lines up almost exactly with the time he went from good to falling off a cliff. Baseball is a physical and a mental game and both those factors can affect a mans performance......But there's at least some evidence of one being true because we know for a fact he was hit with some real life s***. The later is pure speculation.

 

I would have been ok signing him if he was injured, if it was in the mold of a Hendricks/Paxton deal, but it wasn't a rehab contract, it was a pillow contract designed for him to play well in 2024 and opt out. If the Sox knew he was injured, shame on them.

[Bellhorn04]

If this is true, it would have shown up on a physical. If he was already hurt, sure it may be true.

 

He was also hit with a divorce and had his wife leave him, which lines up almost exactly with the time he went from good to falling off a cliff. Baseball is a physical and a mental game and both those factors can affect a mans performance......But there's at least some evidence of one being true because we know for a fact he was hit with some real life s***. The later is pure speculation.

 

I would have been ok signing him if he was injured, if it was in the mold of a Hendricks/Paxton deal, but it wasn't a rehab contract, it was a pillow contract designed for him to play well in 2024 and opt out. If the Sox knew he was injured, shame on them.

 

Of course they didn't know.

 

My main argument is that his finish was a monster red flag one way or the other.

 

It was another dumpster dive type signing.

 

If he did pitch well in 2023 he would have opted out anyway.

 

It's just more of the same disgusting, losing approach.

[Old Red]

While it's certainly true injuries can be predictable, as they can be chronic issues that fester up over time, often they're acute injuries in which a physical is going to show nothing wrong.

 

This is part of the sport, and it's almost expected nowadays that every pitcher is going to need some kind of surgery at some point in their career.

 

It just really sucks when it happen to a guy you just signed.

 

I think the question now is. Does Giolitos injury make (or should it make) the Sox more desperate to sign someone like Montgomery? or does it make them more likely to save their bullets for another day and say "f*** it" lets roll with what we have and see what we have with these kids, and then we might know who we want to build around for 2025 and beyond?????

 

I say you split the difference, you have an idea of what you think Jordan is worth, and clearly no other team has beat you to it, so you stand your ground. He can help in 2024 and beyond, but it's not worth overpaying at this point for anyone.

 

The hold up with signing Monty, or Snell is obviously $$$. Gio being out for an extended period of time isn’t going to change that. Paying Gio $18 not to pitch for them isn’t going to change the aspect at all, and if anything it makes it worse not to mention the Red Sox are paying Sale $17M not to pitch for them also.

[Old Red]

I think both sides believed it was likely he'd miss a full year out of the 5- maybe 1.5 seasons.

 

They agreed on an amount that reflected that belief.

 

I doubt either side knew he'd only start 31 out of a possible 110 starts (~28%) in the first 4 seasons of the 5 season deal.

 

I realize it was a big if that Sale would be Chris Freakin' Sale for the other 3.5 to 4 seasons out of the 5, but if he was, he'd have been worth about $145M/4.

 

It turns out the deal sucked. We might have been able to keep Betts or Bogey, instead. Who knows.

 

The fact is, we have not done very well signing or extending SP'ers for about the last decade or so.

 

Giolito

Kluber

Wacha

Hill

Richards

M Perez II

M Perez I

Nate (Ext)

Sale (Ext)

Porcello (Ext)

Price

Miley (10 years ago)

 

I think the ones just over 10 years ago were Dempster & Lackey with the Beckett extension.

 

Am I missing any major signings or extensions of SP'ers in the last 10-12 years?

 

I don’t by your theory that the Red Sox signed Sale knowing he would be out 18 months with TJ, and hoped he would come back as good as ever, but signed him for 5 years anyway at any kind of going rate. I said it was a bad idea to resign Sale the day it happened, and it was.

[moonslav59]

Wacha contributed to 25 team wins for two clubs that were below-.500 combined the past two seasons. That's 25% more team wins than are credited to Red Sox leader Nick Pivetta in the same span.

 

At this point in what is obviously nothing but a Boston rebuild, maybe the most prudent move for Breslow is to make that painful trade he suggested in his introductory presser. If the Sox really think Story is their shortstop for the next four years of his contract, then Marcelo Mayer is their best chip.

 

My first phone call would be to the Braves, where 10 of Atlanta's top 15 prospects are pitchers. The Braves have two Top 100 pitchers, at #69 and #90. Both of those for #15 Mayer was called a slight overpay by BTV, but with "a high probability it would be accepted..."

 

Wacha worked out well. Others, okay.

 

The list shows more mehs & failures than good deals for us.

 

That's not to say we should never sign top SP'ers, again. I think we need to- many & often.

[Old Red]

Of course they didn't know.

 

My main argument is that his finish was a monster red flag one way or the other.

 

It was another dumpster dive type signing.

 

If he did pitch well in 2023 he would have opted out anyway.

 

It's just more of the same disgusting, losing approach.

 

$18M was in a different dumpster than where Bloom went to find his goodies.