Bloom fired

[moonslav59]

notin will never stop blaming DD for losing Betts, just like dgalehouse will always blame Bloom for it.

 

I do think DD had a better chance at extending Betts than Bloom did.

 

He also spent a ton on Sale, Bogey, Nate and JD as a FA, instead of Betts, but to me, I think JH and the top guys made the call on not giving Betts "what it would take."

[Bellhorn04]

Certainly none like the higher ranked ones he had already traded, but he did not trade Chavis, Groome, Casas, Houck, Duran, DHern or Dalbec. It's hard to know, if he asked to do so, and was told not to, or their trade value, at the time, was so low, he could not find a return worth the effort.

 

Most trades for immediate help would also have increased the payroll cost, so that may have been the actual hindrance.

[moonslav59]

That’s another thing, even if all the prospects he traded bust, if he overspent at the time he had less prospects to make other trades down the road. That’s effectively what happened to DD because he always paid 1.2x the price to make sure he got his guy.

 

Bloom was too far the extreme in the other way perhaps. At least DD had balls

 

And, that trade off in extremes also lead to what foundations each GM left for the next one.

[Bellhorn04]

I do think DD had a better chance at extending Betts than Bloom did.

 

If Henry wouldn't pay market value, they both had the same chance - zero.

[Maxbialystock]

Some caveats about the job Bloom did.

 

The first is that the AL East is easily the toughest division in MLB this year as it was last year and several years before.

 

The second--which everyone on talksox either ignores or forgets--is that the season is 162 games long, which means that small differences in winning percentages are magnified in the standings. The Sox finished 4 games behind the Yankees and 23 freaking games behind the Orioles. But the Sox won 48% of their games and the Yankees 51%--so basically both teams won half their games. And the Orioles won 101 games, which is a ton, but their winning percentage was 62%. So, rounding off, the Orioles won 6 out of every 10 games they played, and the Sox won 5 out of 10.

 

Third is the payroll. Since Chaim Bloom took over as CBO of the Sox he has been captain of the starship enterprise, boldly going where no Red Sox CBO has gone in at least 40 years--trying to cobble together a winning team with the 15th biggest payroll in MLB. No Sox CBO has ever done that--at least, not in the JH era--so why should he be expected to?

 

I have no heartburn with Chaim Bloom being fired. This Sox team has been a disappointment, and someone has to be the fall guy. Who better than the Chief of Baseball Operations?

[moonslav59]

Most trades for immediate help would also have increased the payroll cost, so that may have been the actual hindrance.

.

True, especially for the types of players DD traded for, but guys like Sale were a bargain.

 

Bloom did end up spending some money in 2020, but just a fraction of what he lost in Betts, 1/2 Price, Porcello and others.

 

Best case scenario, maybe he trades Price, Groome and Dalbec for nothing but full salary relief. He does not replace Porcello. He does not extend Sale. He keeps Betts for his arb year, but then what?

 

I just can't see any way to make it work, unless we raise the budgets of 2020, 2021 and maybe even 2022-2023. I don't think any GM could have built a winner under those circumstances, at least until 2022. The 2021 season, notwithstanding, seems like a miracle, now.

[moonslav59]

If Henry wouldn't pay market value, they both had the same chance - zero.

 

Yes, that is what I said after the one sentence you copied of mine.

 

I do think DD might have been able to convince JH to rob Peter to pay Paul. Bloom had no such option to even try. This is why I blame Bloom less than DD, but yes, if JH was firm on not paying Betts, then the blame is 100% JH, 0% DD and 0% Bloom.

[moonslav59]

Some caveats about the job Bloom did.

 

The first is that the AL East is easily the toughest division in MLB this year as it was last year and several years before.

 

The second--which everyone on talksox either ignores or forgets--is that the season is 162 games long, which means that small differences in winning percentages are magnified in the standings. The Sox finished 4 games behind the Yankees and 23 freaking games behind the Orioles. But the Sox won 48% of their games and the Yankees 51%--so basically both teams won half their games. And the Orioles won 101 games, which is a ton, but their winning percentage was 62%. So, rounding off, the Orioles won 6 out of every 10 games they played, and the Sox won 5 out of 10.

 

Third is the payroll. Since Chaim Bloom took over as CBO of the Sox he has been captain of the starship enterprise, boldly going where no Red Sox CBO has gone in at least 40 years--trying to cobble together a winning team with the 15th biggest payroll in MLB. No Sox CBO has ever done that--at least, not in the JH era--so why should he be expected to?

 

I have no heartburn with Chaim Bloom being fired. This Sox team has been a disappointment, and someone has to be the fall guy. Who better than the Chief of Baseball Operations?

 

I agree, except for thinking "everyone ignores or forget" the season is long.

[Randy Red Sox]

I think admitting we are two solid starting pitchers away from being a pretty solid playoff contenders would be admitting Bloom got some things right, along the way to his dismissal.

 

Bell is right in saying adding two studs is not easy, even with enough money and tradeable prospects to add 3-4. You have to pick the right ones. We can't pick the David Prices, Pablitoe's and HRam's like the past. We need to be precise on our choices, which is against the odds, unless you add 4, hoing 2-3 work for a couple -three years.

 

We may be in the minority, Randy, but I am excited about the foundation we have going forward. Does Baltimore and Atlanta have better foundations? Hell, yes, but we are headed in the right direction, and now need to pivot towards making major acquisitions that work well. I fully understand the idea that Bloom was not going to be the guy to trust doing that, and it's not about injuries to Story or a slow start by Yoshia. Getting the "right guy" takes boldness and decisiveness. The next GM better be both.

 

Yamamoto should be one for sure and we can NOT be out-bid on him. Then look to trade for an available YOUNG pitcher who is MLB ready. If our farm system is as good as Bloom fans say it is we should certainly have the assets for a trade. And finally draft the best available COLLEGE SP available with our 1st rd pick. And I am not interested in hearing about the best player available argument either. We have enough quality position players in the minors already but not a single TRUE top pitching prospect.

[Maxbialystock]

I agree, except for thinking "everyone ignores or forget" the season is long.

 

Maybe, maybe not. The 2012 Sox were dead last in the AL East and 3d from the bottom in the AL. The 2013 Sox won it all--the AL East and the WS. The woebegone 2012 Sox won 40% of their games and the triumphant 2013 Sox won 60%. The distance from the outhouse to the penthouse is 20%. Like Crash Davis (Kevin Costner) explaining the difference between a .250 hitter and a .300 hitter--just one hit a week.

[moonslav59]

Yamamoto should be one for sure and we can NOT be out-bid on him. Then look to trade for an available YOUNG pitcher who is MLB ready. If our farm system is as good as Bloom fans say it is we should certainly have the assets for a trade. And finally draft the best available COLLEGE SP available with our 1st rd pick. And I am not interested in hearing about the best player available argument either. We have enough quality position players in the minors already but not a single TRUE top pitching prospect.

 

While it may not be "easy" to add 2-3 top player to our roster, this winter, one near sure-fire method is to just bid more and more, until you win the auction. We absolutely have to choose correctly, but I'm not sure Yamamoto is a sure bet. I love his age and possibilities, but it could be a disaster signing. That is, however, true of any big signing.

 

If we can trade some highly-regarded prospects for one top pitcher, the budget part will have gotten a lot easier and make outbidding others for 1-2 players we really want more likely.

 

I know many think of this prospect or that prospect as "untouchable," and some don't want to trade any of our top 5-6 prospects, but to get a team-controlled younger pitchers with TOTR stuff, it will be costly. Trading for a guy who is already an ace, like Burnes would not really be a good idea, unless we can extend him at a .reasonable cost, and that is rarely a certainty.

 

Let's say we trade 2-3 prospects for Burnes and sign Yamamoto. Extend Burnes. I'd still love to see us sign a 3rd SP'er- maybe Morton on a 1 yr deal or someone like Seth Lugo. (Maybe trade Dugo for a good LH RP) Sign Duvall and keep Urias for his last arb year.

 

This probably has a 0.0001% chance of happening, but I think we can do it and stay under the second tax line, so why not?

 

SP: Burnes, Yamamoto, Bello, Lugo, Pivetta/Sale

LR: (Pivetta,) Houck, Whitlock, Crawford

SR: Jansen, Martin, Winckowski, Schreiber

C: Wong & McGuire

1B: Casas (Duvall)

2B: Urias & Reyes

SS: Story

3B: Devers

LF: Duran & Refsnyder (Yoshida)

CF: Rafaela & Abreu

RF: Duvall (Abreu)

DH: Yoshida

 

Others on the 40:

SP: Gambrell, Drohan, Perales (Hageman or Walter?)

RP: Bernardino, Kelly, Murphy, Robertson (Mata or Mills?)

C: Scott

1B: (Dalbec?)

2B/DH: EValdez

SS: DHam

(OF: Rosier not on 40)

 

[moonslav59]

Maybe, maybe not. The 2012 Sox were dead last in the AL East and 3d from the bottom in the AL. The 2013 Sox won it all--the AL East and the WS. The woebegone 2012 Sox won 40% of their games and the triumphant 2013 Sox won 60%. The distance from the outhouse to the penthouse is 20%. Like Crash Davis (Kevin Costner) explaining the difference between a .250 hitter and a .300 hitter--just one hit a week.

 

Nobody but you understands this?

 

I've heard many say these same things multiple times.

 

I'd say most of us realize it is a long season, and just slight variances can have a major impact over a 162 game season for a player and a team.

 

Look at right now, some of us think we are 2-3 players from being a serious contender after back-to-back 78 win seasons. Isn't that proof that you are not alone?

[dgalehouse]

We can conjure up all the possible scenarios we want to try and mitigate the Bloom and gloom era. But the facts are still the facts. Dombrowski is, and has been, one of the best executives in baseball for some time. He has taken four different teams to the World Series, winning it twice. He has put together some outstanding rosters in doing so. Bloom was a man with a plan that did not work. He finished dead last three out of four years. There is simply no comparison between the two executives. Hopefully, Bloom learns from his mistakes and does better when he gets another chance somewhere.

[moonslav59]

First, I want to say I am not a DD basher. I'm 100% happy with his tenure with the Sox. I do NOT think he "emptied the farm," although he did trade away over 20 young players that were once top 20 prospects. He chose very well, which ones to trade and which ones to keep. His trades and signings had a very high success rate. The 2018 team was a juggernaut.

 

It's hard to imagine how quickly things can unravel, but they did. IMO, the methodologies used in his first 3 years we bound to have some long term consequences, but they were worth it. This whole thing has been debated for years, but certain aspects of the team vision and plans changed after 2018. This is something that seems clear to everyone.

 

From the trade deadline in 2018 to DD's departure in 2019, the following things happened:

1. Kimbrell, Kelly and Pomeranz were not brought back, nor were they replaced.

2. Some players declined and not just guys like Nunez and Pearce, but also Sale, Nate and others.

3. While the budget increased from 2018 to 2019, the arb raises and extensions given to Sale, Bogey and Nate meant major spending increases without additional players added.

4. No major prospects were traded after the deadline in 2018, and one could argue Beeks (#6 on soxprospects.com) and Espinal (not in top 20) were not top prospects, either. This aspect continued under Bloom's full 4 year tenure.

 

So, we go into the fall and winter of 2019 without DD and a new GM forced to adhere to a strict set of guideline- some not really brand new.

 

Here was the budget handed to Bloom in the fall of 2019:

31 Price (soon to be included in the Betts trade as half cost)

22 JD

21 Porcello (FA to be and not replaced)

20 Betts (looking at a $29M arb and being traded w 1/2 Price.)

17 Eovaldi (first year of 4 year extension)

15 Sale (about to see extension kick this up to $25.6)

14 Pedroia (100% deadwood by then)

12 Bogey (about to see extension kick this up to $20M)

9 JBJ (with last arb pending)

8 Cashner (not re-signed

7 Moreland (brought back in '20, then traded at the deadline)

6 Pearce (not deserving of a return for '20)

4 ERod (about to miss the 2020 season)

4 Holt, Vaz

2 Leon

Notable Arbs: Devers, Beni, Barnes, Workman, Hembree, Wright

Notable Pre-arbs: J Taylor, Walden, Velazquez

 

After trading Betts & Price and not replacing them or Porcello and others with anything more than Martin Perez and Jose Peraza, we then lost Sale and ERod for the entire 2020 season. To think the 2020 team was anywhere close to the level of the 2018 team was and still is a joke. No Betts, Price, Sale, ERod, Porcello, Nunez, Pearce and others. (Pedey was still on the budget, too.)

 

We replaced all of this with Martin Perez, Jose Peraza, Kevin Pillar and a bunch or min wage longshot hopes, nearly 2 dozens of them over the 2020 season. Their total cost above min wage was less than $15M total.

 

Can someone tell me how DD or any GM could have rescued that roster and created a successful team?

 

I hear a lot of, "Okay, I don't count 2020 against Bloom," but what big change to that base was made for 2021?

 

The return of a shell of Sale?

The loss of a decent 2020 season by JBJ?

ERod's nice return helped, but was not enough.

Okay, we finally replace Porcello's contract 2 years later (Richards, Perez, Renfroe, Marwin,) but still not 1/2 Price and Betts.

 

The success of 2021 can be viewed as surprising, but I think many viewed this as evidence that Bloom did inherit a team close to what the 2018 team. In reality, it was far from that team.

 

I do think the budgets of 2022 and 2023 allowed for much better roster construction than what Bloom was able to do, although his 2022 moves look pretty decent on paper. I will not argue that someone else could have done better than Story, Yoshida and others. Better than Richards, Perez and Marwin in '21, too and certainly better than the Renfroe JBJ trade. No doubts, there.

 

To me, the fact is the great run of 2016-2018 was well worth the sacrifice that was inevitable to follow. I think the rebuild took too long. The lack of keeping up with other top spenders was a factor, but we should have done better than 78 wins in '22 and '23.

 

Again, I like the foundation Bloom left for the next guy. I'm hopeful we can create a more balanced approach that can keep us winning for longer than 3 year windows- something we have not really been able to do, since Theo, and even he never won rings beyond a 3 year stretch and had some down years scattered in between. (No 3 last places, though.)

 

I'm hopeful the next guy can do it.

[moonslav59]

We can conjure up all the possible scenarios we want to try and mitigate the Bloom and gloom era. But the facts are still the facts. Dombrowski is, and has been, one of the best executives in baseball for some time. He has taken four different teams to the World Series, winning it twice. He has put together some outstanding rosters in doing so. Bloom was a man with a plan that did not work. He finished dead last three out of four years. There is simply no comparison between the two executives. Hopefully, Bloom learns from his mistakes and does better when he gets another chance somewhere.

 

Yes, all your chosen things are fact.

 

No context, at all is the refrain.

[Bellhorn04]

Here's a Bloom vs. Dombrowski thing:

 

While Bloom was signing Kluber this offseason, DD signed T. Walker for 4/72. Kind of a typical DD overpay.

 

But Walker logged 172.2 innings with a 2.5 fWAR, so the 18 million was worth it for 2023 at least.

[notin]

Yamamoto should be one for sure and we can NOT be out-bid on him. Then look to trade for an available YOUNG pitcher who is MLB ready. If our farm system is as good as Bloom fans say it is we should certainly have the assets for a trade. And finally draft the best available COLLEGE SP available with our 1st rd pick. And I am not interested in hearing about the best player available argument either. We have enough quality position players in the minors already but not a single TRUE top pitching prospect.

 

“Yes !! Al ways take the up college pitcher available regardless of who the best position player is!”

 

These were the exact words of former Toronto Blue Jays GM Gord Ash right after selecting Cal State LHP Ricky Romero instead of Troy Tulowitzki…

[notin]

notin will never stop blaming DD for losing Betts, just like dgalehouse will always blame Bloom for it.

 

Actually I blame Betts, because he clearly wanted free agency and I don’t believe him when he did the offer was never made…

[Bellhorn04]

Actually I blame Betts, because he clearly wanted free agency and I don’t believe him when he did the offer was never made…

 

If he clearly wanted free agency, why did he sign the extension with the Dodgers?

[notin]

Here's a Bloom vs. Dombrowski thing:

 

While Bloom was signing Kluber this offseason, DD signed T. Walker for 4/72. Kind of a typical DD overpay.

 

But Walker logged 172.2 innings with a 2.5 fWAR, so the 18 million was worth it for 2023 at least.

 

Spoken like a David Price Apologist…

[notin]

If he clearly wanted free agency, why did he sign the extension with the Dodgers?

 

COVID

 

Why else did it take 4 months?

[Bellhorn04]

Spoken like a David Price Apologist…

 

What does Price have to do with it?

[Bellhorn04]

COVID

 

Why else did it take 4 months?

 

Well, you're entitled to your guesses.

[notin]

What does Price have to do with it?

 

Walker was always an injury risk. He just signed a 4 year $72mill deal that you said was already worth it. Granted for 2023, but the contract is also for 2024 through 2026.

 

While it certainly is theoretically possible for a player to justify a multi year deal with one season, Walker didn’t. And if he misses the next 3 seasons, was it still a good f deal?

[notin]

Well, you're entitled to your guesses.

 

It does make a lot of pieces fit. And I’m clearly not just blaming Dombrowski for it…

[Bellhorn04]

It does make a lot of pieces fit. And I’m clearly not just blaming Dombrowski for it…

 

Why are you so skeptical about Henry lowballing Betts or being risk-averse about it? There's a pattern of it by Henry. You would think that if JH was dead serious about trying to keep Betts he would have offered $350 mill or thereabouts. That was clearly Betts's market value at the time.

[Bellhorn04]

Walker was always an injury risk. He just signed a 4 year $72mill deal that you said was already worth it. Granted for 2023, but the contract is also for 2024 through 2026.

 

While it certainly is theoretically possible for a player to justify a multi year deal with one season, Walker didn’t. And if he misses the next 3 seasons, was it still a good f deal?

 

Can we at least wait until some of that happens?

[mvp 78]

COVID

 

Why else did it take 4 months?

 

That's how negotiations work?

[Duran Is The Man]

So you’re saying he didn’t rebuild the Tigers through free agency and by dealing their prospects?

 

isn't that what any good GM is supposed to do? i don't really see any of the players DD traded away as being someone we might have missed. i hope the next GM trades "suspects" for proven talent.

[notin]

That's how negotiations work?

 

Maybe, but I have to think Friedman didn’t have too many more pressing issues, especially once games started getting canceled