Red Sox: Off Season '23-'24

[moonslav59]

"Bid with the market rather than beyond it"?

 

Some might say that's just another way of saying they never have the top bid.

 

Actually, I don't know WTF "bid with the market" means in the context of baseball free agents. It's gibberish.

 

Presumably, the "market rate" is the top bid.

 

Maybe JH does not realize that is what that means.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Enough conjecture about facts -- industry sources, beat reporters, defeated bloggers... the only facts in the offseason are when the ink is dry on signed contracts or done deals.

 

Facts: 5th-best team AL East dumps oft-injured pitcher, part-time infielder, and centerpiece of worst trade in Red Sox history; acquires bat-first infielder, reliever, and oft-injured outfielder. And signs starting pitcher with ERAs of 4.90 and 4.88 the past two seasons.

 

Rev the motor all you want, but you're going nowhere stuck in neutral.

[Old Red]

This is exactly what I said last week when everyone thought they were cutting payroll and weren't willing to go over the limit, stating that trading Chris Sales money prevented them from buying a better starting pitcher.

 

It doesn't. Of course they still might not upgrade the rotation anyways.

 

Still thinking that the $17M they will be paying Sale to pitch for Atlanta this year couldn’t be put to good use for this year?🙈🤭🙈.

[Hugh2]

Still thinking that the $17M they will be paying Sale to pitch for Atlanta this year couldn’t be put to good use for this year?🙈🤭🙈.

 

You’re literally too dumb to have an honest rational conversation with.

 

I bet you went to the school of hard knocks.

[Old Red]

You’re literally too dumb to have an honest rational conversation with.

 

I bet you went to the school of hard knocks.

 

Wow! Name calling! I bet JH would disagree with you on the money.

[moonslav59]

You’re literally too dumb to have an honest rational conversation with.

 

I bet you went to the school of hard knocks.

 

Nobody knows fo4r sure, how the Sale-Grissom deal will work out. There are some wild variables involved.

 

Basically, it's...

 

$17M for Sale to pitch, not pitch or pitch a little with ATL vs $27M for the same with us.

 

$10M more to spend or for JH to pocket.

 

6 years of a recently graduated top prospects with a nice upside bat and unknown abilities on D at 2B. Maybe he ends up near average on D and can improves over the following 5 years- maybe not.

 

This looks like a pretty even deal that could go one way or another in a big way, but for the Sox, it could be for 6 good to great years. If he sucks, we cut him after 1-2 years. I think that shifts the balance to BOS. If we use the $10M wisely, even better.

 

[moonslav59]

Yanks talking to Stroman.

 

Maybe Monty to TEX and Stroman to NYY, leaving Clevinger or Paxton for the Sox to overpay.

[Duran Is The Man]

and what does all this top talent do, exactly?

 

 

lolololol...

[Duran Is The Man]

"Bid with the market rather than beyond it"?

 

Some might say that's just another way of saying they never have the top bid.

 

Actually, I don't know WTF "bid with the market" means in the context of baseball free agents. It's gibberish.

 

exactly. it's just corporate ******** to appease a disgruntled fanbase.

[Old Red]

exactly. it's just corporate ******** to appease a disgruntled fanbase.

 

I don’t think it’s appeasing anyone.

[Hugh2]

Nobody knows fo4r sure, how the Sale-Grissom deal will work out. There are some wild variables involved.

 

Basically, it's...

 

$17M for Sale to pitch, not pitch or pitch a little with ATL vs $27M for the same with us.

 

$10M more to spend or for JH to pocket.

 

6 years of a recently graduated top prospects with a nice upside bat and unknown abilities on D at 2B. Maybe he ends up near average on D and can improves over the following 5 years- maybe not.

 

This looks like a pretty even deal that could go one way or another in a big way, but for the Sox, it could be for 6 good to great years. If he sucks, we cut him after 1-2 years. I think that shifts the balance to BOS. If we use the $10M wisely, even better.

 

 

We traded 1 year of control, in a year we pressumably won't compete, a guy who is often injured, for SIX years of team control of a young stud. That's a win no matter what, just the chance itself is a win.

 

This notion that the Sox won't spend because of this is beyond brainless.

 

It's perfectly reasonable to assume the Sox won't spend on any big name free agents, it's perfectly reasonable to assume they're not as comitted to this team, It's perfectly reasonable to assume they don't want to compete with the top dogs for most free agents. But it's beyond recklessly abusrd to think that not saving $17 million (FOR ONE YEAR) is going to influence what they would spend on Snell or Montgomery.

 

The Sox have a figure in their head that they would be willing to spend on those guys, and that figure may very well fall short of signing one, one might even say it would be a good bet they won't. But if that number, whatever it may be has NOTHING to do with $17 million. It's 17 million for one year, a year that even if they did go over the cap (which they won't at this point) they wouldn't even come close to paying harsh penalties associated with the next tier up, and even if they did go over they're in a position to reset next year.

 

The Sox will either sign Montgomery or SNell, anyone who thinks they needed to save more money on a 1 year Chris Sale contract is beyond help or rationality. They're ready to be spoon fed whatever narrative the media spews at them that feeds their confirmation bias.

 

The irony here is, they will clamor on when Snell and Jordan likely sign elsewhere, which is irrelavent. They're were likely not signing even if Atlanta ate 100% of Sales contract. It boggles my mind that this is apparent to people.

 

It's perfectly possible to understand that fact and still see the Sox as being mismanaged and cheap. It's a not zero sum game.

[Hugh2]

Wow! Name calling! I bet JH would disagree with you on the money.

 

I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said that.

 

I'm trying to #bebetter

[moonslav59]

We traded 1 year of control, in a year we pressumably won't compete, a guy who is often injured, for SIX years of team control of a young stud. That's a win no matter what, just the chance itself is a win.

 

This notion that the Sox won't spend because of this is beyond brainless.

 

It's perfectly reasonable to assume the Sox won't spend on any big name free agents, it's perfectly reasonable to assume they're not as comitted to this team, It's perfectly reasonable to assume they don't want to compete with the top dogs for most free agents. But it's beyond recklessly abusrd to think that not saving $17 million (FOR ONE YEAR) is going to influence what they would spend on Snell or Montgomery.

 

The Sox have a figure in their head that they would be willing to spend on those guys, and that figure may very well fall short of signing one, one might even say it would be a good bet they won't. But if that number, whatever it may be has NOTHING to do with $17 million. It's 17 million for one year, a year that even if they did go over the cap (which they won't at this point) they wouldn't even come close to paying harsh penalties associated with the next tier up, and even if they did go over they're in a position to reset next year.

 

The Sox will either sign Montgomery or SNell, anyone who thinks they needed to save more money on a 1 year Chris Sale contract is beyond help or rationality. They're ready to be spoon fed whatever narrative the media spews at them that feeds their confirmation bias.

 

The irony here is, they will clamor on when Snell and Jordan likely sign elsewhere, which is irrelavent. They're were likely not signing even if Atlanta ate 100% of Sales contract. It boggles my mind that this is apparent to people.

 

It's perfectly possible to understand that fact and still see the Sox as being mismanaged and cheap. It's a not zero sum game.

 

Well said, and one can view the trade as saving $10M and spending $17M for Grissom, if we think 2024 is lost.

Edited January 10, 2024 by moonslav59

[notin]

Still thinking that the $17M they will be paying Sale to pitch for Atlanta this year couldn’t be put to good use for this year?.

 

For what? We’d still need a 2b (which would take $10-12mill.) And on its own, that $17mill gets what? Another question mark like Giolito? (Technically it wasn’t enough to get another Giolito.)

[Bellhorn04]

We traded 1 year of control, in a year we pressumably won't compete, a guy who is often injured, for SIX years of team control of a young stud. That's a win no matter what, just the chance itself is a win.

 

So now we're cheering for moves that look best through the filter of not competing this year.

[Bellhorn04]

For what? We’d still need a 2b (which would take $10-12mill.) And on its own, that $17mill gets what? Another question mark like Giolito? (Technically it wasn’t enough to get another Giolito.)

 

How much did we pay Duvall last year? Sometimes you do actually get some value for your money...

[notin]

How much did we pay Duvall last year? Sometimes you do actually get some value for your money...

 

Hopefully Duvall isn’t out the Sox range this year…

[moonslav59]

How much did we pay Duvall last year? Sometimes you do actually get some value for your money...

 

One could say paying $17M for 6 years of Grissom is a steal.

[Bellhorn04]

One could say paying $17M for 6 years of Grissom is a steal.

 

Well, maybe. He's still an unproven quantity at the MLB level. And he was below replacement level last year.

[Old Red]

For what? We’d still need a 2b (which would take $10-12mill.) And on its own, that $17mill gets what? Another question mark like Giolito? (Technically it wasn’t enough to get another Giolito.)

 

$17M on its own might not get you much, but why just stick on the $17M? That $17M could have been added to some other money to get something better. $27M could have even been added to other money to even get something better. Yes the Red Sox needed an improvement at 2B, but not as much as they need starting pitching, so to just frame the $17M isn’t an accurate picture, but to say the $17M the Red Sox are paying the Braves doesn’t count, or matter with what sounds like a strict budget that Bres is working under all adds up, and takes away from what can be spent.

[Old Red]

Well, maybe. He's still an unproven quantity at the MLB level. And he was below replacement level last year.

 

It’s a win, win for the Braves. It’s a minor risk for $10M, and IF Sale stays healthy the Braves get a decent pitcher added to a good ball club, and gave up someone who was not in their plans. Grissom has potential, and is not a stud prospect like 1 said yesterday. He’ll hopefully turn out to be good, but he’s not a Bill Maz, or Robbie Alomar at this point.

[Hugh2]

$17M on its own might not get you much, but why just stick on the $17M? That $17M could have been added to some other money to get something better. $27M could have even been added to other money to even get something better. Yes the Red Sox needed an improvement at 2B, but not as much as they need starting pitching, so to just frame the $17M isn’t an accurate picture, but to say the $17M the Red Sox are paying the Braves doesn’t count, or matter with what sounds like a strict budget that Bres is working under all adds up, and takes away from what can be spent.

 

You're also discounting the fact that they gained a RHB with upside. You can discount the upside because you don't young unproven talent but regardless, that's money saved. The Sox now no longer need to get a 2B, of course, they might of rolled with Valdez and upgraded with a RHB elsewhere, so the trade might of else made it unecessary for them to go after someone like Teoscar Hernandez (20 million). In which case, Breslow might of actually got a hitter who is young and could be better going forward AND actually saved $3 million by not having to spend $20 million.

 

Of course, maybe they don't go out and get Tim Anderson or Whit Merrifield instead who are projected to get between $9-12 million. So in that case, the only really lose 5-8 million per year. Every projection of a Snell/Montgomery AAV still puts them below the cap. If Breslow is not allowed to go over the cap, he most certainly is allowed to go up against it.

 

This move 100% does not prevent them from getting starting pitching. This statement in no way shape or form predicts that they do. They very well might not, but it Sale/Grissom trade is not preventing this.

[Hugh2]

It’s a win, win for the Braves. It’s a minor risk for $10M, and IF Sale stays healthy the Braves get a decent pitcher added to a good ball club, and gave up someone who was not in their plans. Grissom has potential, and is not a stud prospect like 1 said yesterday. He’ll hopefully turn out to be good, but he’s not a Bill Maz, or Robbie Alomar at this point.

 

Literally everyone in the baseball universe has called this trade a win for the Red Sox. It's actually a win for the Braves too, and heck it's a win for the players. Grissom didn't have a home in Atlanta, and Sales time had passed here.

[Bellhorn04]

This move 100% does not prevent them from getting starting pitching. This statement in no way shape or form predicts that they do. They very well might not, but it Sale/Grissom trade is not preventing this.

 

No it isn't. And when I first heard about the trade I thought the $10 mill or so they freed up would be put toward a free agent signing. Because we've heard numerous times about them needing to shed payroll before spending.

 

And of course since then they've done nothing.

 

This offseason might end up OK, but to date it's been mostly frustration, angst and confusion for Sox fans. At least the ones who actually care about the 2024 season.

[Old Red]

You're also discounting the fact that they gained a RHB with upside. You can discount the upside because you don't young unproven talent but regardless, that's money saved. The Sox now no longer need to get a 2B, of course, they might of rolled with Valdez and upgraded with a RHB elsewhere, so the trade might of else made it unecessary for them to go after someone like Teoscar Hernandez (20 million). In which case, Breslow might of actually got a hitter who is young and could be better going forward AND actually saved $3 million by not having to spend $20 million.

 

Of course, maybe they don't go out and get Tim Anderson or Whit Merrifield instead who are projected to get between $9-12 million. So in that case, the only really lose 5-8 million per year. Every projection of a Snell/Montgomery AAV still puts them below the cap. If Breslow is not allowed to go over the cap, he most certainly is allowed to go up against it.

 

This move 100% does not prevent them from getting starting pitching. This statement in no way shape or form predicts that they do. They very well might not, but it Sale/Grissom trade is not preventing this.

We’ve beaten this subject to death, and no one is changing their opinion. I said in the beginning I liked the trade, but I just didn’t like having to pay the Braves $17M. Yes I can like one part of the trade, and not like another, which I was told I couldn’t do. I’m not discounting at all that the Red Sox picked up a young RHB with potential. 2B was a need, but not as big as starting pitching.

[notin]

Well, maybe. He's still an unproven quantity at the MLB level. And he was below replacement level last year.

 

 

You don’t think maybe only having 80 plate appearances was a factor?

[Hugh2]

No it isn't. And when I first heard about the trade I thought the $10 mill or so they freed up would be put toward a free agent signing. Because we've heard numerous times about them needing to shed payroll before spending.

 

And of course since then they've done nothing.

 

This offseason might end up OK, but to date it's been mostly frustration, angst and confusion for Sox fans. At least the ones who actually care about the 2024 season.

 

Despite peoples opinions, stances, or perspective on things I don't think anyone can argue with that. It certainly has been a frustrating offseason.

[notin]

We’ve beaten this subject to death, and no one is changing their opinion. I said in the beginning I liked the trade, but I just didn’t like having to pay the Braves $17M. Yes I can like one part of the trade, and not like another, which I was told I couldn’t do. I’m not discounting at all that the Red Sox picked up a young RHB with potential. 2B was a need, but not as big as starting pitching.

 

It’s always fun when the guy who reignites the chat calls for the discussion to stop…

[Hugh2]

We’ve beaten this subject to death, and no one is changing their opinion. I said in the beginning I liked the trade, but I just didn’t like having to pay the Braves $17M. Yes I can like one part of the trade, and not like another, which I was told I couldn’t do. I’m not discounting at all that the Red Sox picked up a young RHB with potential. 2B was a need, but not as big as starting pitching.

 

Ok, I guess we will have to stop beating what once resembled the carcass of a dead horse. I will say this though, if you like the trade, it doesn't happen if they don't kick the money in.

[Bellhorn04]

You don’t think maybe only having 80 plate appearances was a factor?

 

I'm sure it was. Still an unproven quantity, especially defensively.