Red Sox: Off Season '23-'24

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I was talking more about D, but good stat.

 

My late step-father played some pro ball in the 1950s, then played and managed semipro for decades after that. Once, when I was breaking in a new glove, he got all nostalgic:

 

"In baseball, nothing like a good glove that you like." He told the story of this legendary infielder whose glove was so old and floppy, it accidentally got thrown away. "The guy went in the dumpster looking for it... and he found it. Second baseman. Hall of Famer..."

 

I correctly guessed Mazeroski, then noted he wasn't in Cooperstown (yet). The retort: "Well, he should be!"

 

I'll take his word for it. He said Maz' hands were so fast and sure on DPs it looked like he barely touched the ball on the transfer. Qualitative data.

[mvp 78]

That’s why the Braves were trying him in the OF.

 

Because they have two long term contracts at 2B and SS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[moonslav59]

Right. But it kind of sounds like he's a project, defensively speaking...

 

He is certainly not a plus, right now. He will likely start out below average.

 

He was blocked in ATL.

 

He's largely an unknown at 2B. I'm guessing he's better than Urias, EValdez and Yorke on D and maybe can be about like Reyes or better, in a short time.

 

If he gets almost all the reps at 2B, I'll be surprised, if our defensive metrics are worse in 2024 than 2023.

 

2023 D at 2B:

30th in OAA at -50 (13 worse than the Reds and 42 worse than the 20th team!)

30 in DRS at -12

18th UZR/150 at -0.7

 

I don't think I'm going out on a limb to project improved D at 2B and vastly improved O at 2B for 2024.

[Old Red]

Because they have two long term contracts at 2B and SS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

He also sucked at SS.

[moonslav59]

Because they have two long term contracts at 2B and SS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

No, that can't be the reason!

[mvp 78]

"Mookie Betts' defense is so bad they are trying him in the OF!!!!

 

Vaughn Grissom - 0 G in the OF

[mvp 78]

He also sucked at SS.

 

I know and agree!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[notin]

He also sucked at SS.

 

Who cares? He probably can’t pitch either, but it doesn’t matter since the Sox won’t be using him there…

[moonslav59]

"Mookie Betts' defense is so bad they are trying him in the OF!!!!

 

Vaughn Grissom - 0 G in the OF

 

Must have been based on the eye test.

[Old Red]

A list of good not great 2B not in the HOF that were better than Bill Mazeroski:

Julio Franco

Chuck Knoblach

Davey Lopes

Tony Phillips

Placido Polanco

Dick McAuliffe

I was just throwing Mazeroski’s name out there. I could have said Chuck Schilling, Mike Andrew’s, Jerry Adair, Denny Doyle, or even the Rooster who moved to 2B.

[moonslav59]

i know and agree!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

omar vizquel sucked as a catcher.

[notin]

Because they have two long term contracts at 2B and SS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Technically they don’t have a long term contract at SS. They just didn’t like Grissom there…

[mvp 78]

Who cares? He probably can’t pitch either, but it doesn’t matter since the Sox won’t be using him there…

 

Uh, excuse me......

 

@alexspeier

Anthopoulos informed Grissom that Atlanta felt like it needed to trade for a pitcher. Informed of that, Grissom responded, “I can pitch.” Anthopoulos described himself as “incredibly fond” of Grissom, who he views as “a really special kid.”

[mvp 78]

omar vizquel sucked as a catcher.

 

He sucks at a lot of things.

[jad]

Anyone remember or witness Mike Greenwell's stint at C?

[mvp 78]

Anyone remember or witness Mike Greenwell's stint at C?

 

1 Inning, 2 SB's, WP, E

 

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1987/07/17/Mike-Greenwell-forced-to-make-his-major-league-catching/9890553492800/

[moonslav59]

Anyone remember or witness Mike Greenwell's stint at C?

 

I remember my ex brother-in-law saying he came from the "pick the ball up, when it stops rolling school of OF defense."

[moonslav59]

Yanks pivot from Stroman and Monty and sign Tanner Tully, instead!

 

[dgalehouse]

Do you really think W-L record tells the story for a pitcher? Clemens was losing in the 7th inning of his first 20 strikeout game. Good thing Dwight Evans homered to make Clemens a better pitcher. Pedro was also losing his famous one hit, 17K performance in the Bronx. Thankfully Mike Stanley homered to make Pedro a better pitcher…

 

We have been over this too many times. No need to do it again. I'll just say this: Winning is the ultimate objective in any sport or any competition. Pedro and Clemens

were proven winners. They had an obsession with beating the competition that helped them become all time greats. A couple of isolated examples doesn't change that. Baseball is a team sport, but the pitcher is a major part of that team.

[Hugh2]

That’s why the Braves were trying him in the OF.

 

No its not.`Atlanta has the most talented position team in baseball. They have Orlando Arcia at SS, he's 28 a former #6 overall prospect, plus defender AS this year and Ozzie ALbies at second who is one of the best 2b in all of baseball.

 

Grissom was drafted in 2019, 2020 season was canceled so 2021 was his first full season in pro ball, debuted in 2022. Was obviously rushed but still hit very well for a kid barely out of a Ball. While those two played at the MLB level he dominated AA/AAA. His defense was a very small SSS, probably won't be a good defender at SS but many believe he should be at least an average defender at 2nB. He only played other positions because with the two mentioned above thats how he was going to fit onto the roster.

 

Happens all the time, if people remember a kid named Mookie Betts had to move to RF because a guy named DUstin Pedroia was at second.

[mvp 78]

No its not.`Atlanta has the most talented position team in baseball. They have Orlando Arcia at SS, he's 28 a former #6 overall prospect, plus defender AS this year and Ozzie ALbies at second who is one of the best 2b in all of baseball.

 

Grissom was drafted in 2019, 2020 season was canceled so 2021 was his first full season in pro ball, debuted in 2022. Was obviously rushed but still hit very well for a kid barely out of a Ball. While those two played at the MLB level he dominated AA/AAA. His defense was a very small SSS, probably won't be a good defender at SS but many believe he should be at least an average defender at 2nB. He only played other positions because with the two mentioned above thats how he was going to fit onto the roster.

 

Happens all the time, if people remember a kid named Mookie Betts had to move to RF because a guy named DUstin Pedroia was at second.

 

Should have just traded Dustin to make room for Mookie at 2B.

[Hugh2]

Should have just traded Dustin to make room for Mookie at 2B.

 

Why would we have traded Pedroia for a suspect though?

[dgalehouse]

You can give up 6 runs and win, you can give up 1 run and lose. You'd think that alone would settle the debate.

 

Of course. But in the long run the pitcher who gives up one run will be a winner. The pitcher who gives up six runs will not.

[Hugh2]

Of course. But in the long run the pitcher who gives up one run will be a winner. The pitcher who gives up six runs will not.

 

You’re not 100% wrong. But tell that to 22 year old Felix Hernandez.

 

 

Although two years later he won a CY YOU G despite only going 13-12.

 

Of course, that might of been because he was competing against Bartolo Colon who beats out blatantly better pitchers for a CY YOUNG strictly because of his wins.

[Hugh2]

Was not competing against*

[moonslav59]

Of course. But in the long run the pitcher who gives up one run will be a winner. The pitcher who gives up six runs will not.

 

Yes, and runs allowed (as well as IP) is what ERA, ERA+, ERA- are all about.

[Old Red]

No its not.`Atlanta has the most talented position team in baseball. They have Orlando Arcia at SS, he's 28 a former #6 overall prospect, plus defender AS this year and Ozzie ALbies at second who is one of the best 2b in all of baseball.

 

Grissom was drafted in 2019, 2020 season was canceled so 2021 was his first full season in pro ball, debuted in 2022. Was obviously rushed but still hit very well for a kid barely out of a Ball. While those two played at the MLB level he dominated AA/AAA. His defense was a very small SSS, probably won't be a good defender at SS but many believe he should be at least an average defender at 2nB. He only played other positions because with the two mentioned above thats how he was going to fit onto the roster.

 

Happens all the time, if people remember a kid named Mookie Betts had to move to RF because a guy named DUstin Pedroia was at second.

Mookie wasn’t moved to the OF, which happed when he was in Portland at the time, because of Pedroia, but because for some reason the Red Sox were having trouble of producing OF at that time. Swihart got tried in the OF, and Brock Holt got put in the OF who hadn’t played there before, so that’s wrong on the Pedroia angle. You are way off base on this one.

Edited January 10, 2024 by Old Red

[notin]

Mookie wasn’t moved to the OF, which happed when he was in Portland at the time, because of Pedroia, but because for some reason the Red Sox were having trouble of producing OF at that time. Swihart got tried in the OF, and Brock Holt got put in the OF who hadn’t played there before, so that’s wrong on the Pedroia angle. You are way off base on this one.

 

Well, actually it looked like a combination of two things.

 

1. Pedroia did have the 2b job locked up.

2. Bradley was struggling mightily as a hitter.

 

They moved him where they needed help. Pedroia was the primary reason they didn’t need help at 2b.

 

Brock Holt doesn’t belong in the conversation of players moved to the OF. He was a utility player who bounced around and never played 70 games in the OF in a season…

Edited January 10, 2024 by notin

[mvp 78]

Why would we have traded Pedroia for a suspect though?

 

Bad contract. He was likely to get injured was a ticking time bomb performance wise. The only suspect was Pedroia's health!

[mvp 78]

Mookie wasn’t moved to the OF, which happed when he was in Portland at the time, because of Pedroia, but because for some reason the Red Sox were having trouble of producing OF at that time. Swihart got tried in the OF, and Brock Holt got put in the OF who hadn’t played there before, so that’s wrong on the Pedroia angle. You are way off base on this one.

 

lolololol