5/07 SOX @ Phillies 1:35PM ET

[mvp 78]

Relax, and have a Gansett.

 

They won the series. Keep doing that and they are golden.

[vegasbob]

It was a great 8 game run, and series win. Let's restart a streak in Atlanta, split if they have to but take 2 on the roads from another good team.

[d-money]

A s***** game.

[notin]

Nice job by Cora today.

 

Hey Bloom, Littell was hit hard even on the outs. Nice pick up. But he came cheap.

 

Lets find another dumpster.

 

Littell was a very good RP for the Giants in 2021. 2.92 ERA in 63 IP. I do see why they took a chance.

 

This was one inning. Schreiber looked awful in his first few innings, too..

[notin]

It was a great 8 game run, and series win. Let's restart a streak in Atlanta, split if they have to but take 2 on the roads from another good team.

 

Boom. Yes.

[Tedballgame]

We are on to Atlanta.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Littell was a very good RP for the Giants in 2021. 2.92 ERA in 63 IP. I do see why they took a chance.

 

This was one inning. Schreiber looked awful in his first few innings, too..

 

 

True. We'll just file this under a bad first impression.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

We are on to Atlanta.

 

Let's pull a Gen. Sherman on them.

[Maxbialystock]

Absolutely fantastic streak that couldn't have come at a better time. Plus the Sox won the series.

 

I stand by my criticism of Cora, but do not think that decision cost the game, not by a longshot. The Phillies pitched a gem, pure and simple. I also think Cora is one of the reasons the Sox are having a good season so far.

 

It will be interesting to see where Paxton ends up. If he replaces Kluber, fine, but that is very unlikely.

[Maxbialystock]

Let's pull a Gen. Sherman on them.

 

Reportedly, a very good tanker.

[Nick]

Bleier was 8-18 vs left handed batters. So much for knowing your pitcher.

 

Shove that lefty vs lefty in your ass.

 

I guess no one ever thinks of a reverse split.

 

Ok it's just one game. I'm a big Houck fan and I was upset he was pulled.

[moonslav59]

One more time. Houck started the 6th against the top of the Phillies order for the third time. Why did Cora do that?

 

Answer: Houck was pitching well. He proceeded to K Turner, give up a single to Bryce, and get Castellanos on a ground out.

 

Question: why do you insist pulling Houck was the right move when he already got 2 outs against the top of the Phillies order?

 

I never insisted.

 

Houck has sucked the third time through- just about every game. At some point they have to take the training wheels off.

 

Max, almost every game Houck sucks the 3rd time through, he looked to be in total control up to that moment.

[Old Red]

I never insisted.

 

Houck has sucked the third time through- just about every game. At some point they have to take the training wheels off.

 

Max, almost every game Houck sucks the 3rd time through, he looked to be in total control up to that moment.

 

Sounds like splitting hairs to me. You said it was the right move to take Houck out when Cora did. I hope you didn’t get hurt straddling that fence with the training wheels. If Cora would have left Houck in, and the same thing happened you would have thrown a bigger hissy fit than anyone, and you would have spewed out every stat you could find in why Houck should have come out. Wow! Wow! Wow!, and more Wow!

[moonslav59]

Sounds like splitting hairs to me. You said it was the right move to take Houck out when Cora did. I hope you didn’t get hurt straddling that fence with the training wheels. If Cora would have left Houck in, and the same thing happened you would have thrown a bigger hissy fit than anyone, and you would have spewed out every stat you could find in why Houck should have come out. Wow! Wow! Wow!, and more Wow!

 

I'm not straddling the fence. "Insisted" implies a hard stand. I never take a hard stan against Cora. He knows more than I do, and I accept that.

 

I won't reply to your baiting.

[notin]

Sounds like splitting hairs to me. You said it was the right move to take Houck out when Cora did. I hope you didn’t get hurt straddling that fence with the training wheels. If Cora would have left Houck in, and the same thing happened you would have thrown a bigger hissy fit than anyone, and you would have spewed out every stat you could find in why Houck should have come out. Wow! Wow! Wow!, and more Wow!

 

You mean… like you just did to moon?

[notin]

Bleier was 8-18 vs left handed batters. So much for knowing your pitcher.

 

Shove that lefty vs lefty in your ass.

 

I guess no one ever thinks of a reverse split.

 

Ok it's just one game. I'm a big Houck fan and I was upset he was pulled.

 

I’ve reached the point where I prefer Brasier over Bleier. Can Bleier limbo under the bar being held by Ort? Time will tell…

[moonslav59]

I’ve reached the point where I prefer Brasier over Bleier. Can Bleier limbo under the bar being held by Ort? Time will tell…

 

We need to face the fact that we will never have everyone healthy at the same time, which is what is needed to knock Ort, Bleier and Brasier off the 26, so as much as Bloom did to build up the pen, we still need more additions.

 

Paxton will join the club, next week, but someone else will probably do on the IL.

 

Right now, we have 4 pitchers on the IL and 2 on the 60s:

 

Whitlock

Paxton

Crawford

Joely

 

60:

Kelly

Mills

[moonslav59]

You mean… like you just did to moon?

 

When have I ever gone nutty over any one decision Cora has made?

 

Hell, I'm one of the few who still defend it being reasonable that Grady left Pedro in.

 

As much as I disliked Bobby V, I don't think I bashed individual game moves. There is just too many moving parts none of us are privy to, to be so emphatic over any one choice.

 

(Someone may dig up some old post to prove me wrong, but I don't go nutty over game moves.)

[jad]

Relax, and have a Gansett.

 

Isn't the proper pronunciation "Gab a hansett?" (Meanwhile, call me a taxi.)

[Maxbialystock]

You mean… like you just did to moon?

 

My gripe with Old Red is I think he's intellectually dishonest. To justify pulling Houck, he cites how terrible (and he wasn't terrible) Houck was 2d time through the Phillies batting order. And then he completely disregards the third freaking time through the Phillies order as irrelevant because it doesn't fit his argument.

 

In fact, the third time through the Phillies order started in the 5th inning when Houck got Stott to pop up to Devers. Then in the 6th he struck out Trea Turner, gave up a single to Bryce Harper, and got Castellanos to ground out to Valdez. To me it was patently obvious leaving Houck in was the right move because he was pitching well.

 

But I also don't think leaving Houck in would have won the game. Phillies pitching was too good, and the Sox bullpen absolutely stunk today.

 

In the past, I have not liked Houck as a starter, but this year I think he has shown a lot of toughness and a better repertoire. His ERA of 5.26 is nothing to write home about, but it's still 2d best among the starters. And Houck has pitched more innings than anyone else on the team.

[moonslav59]

In fact, the third time through the Phillies order started in the 5th inning when Houck got Stott to pop up to Devers. Then in the 6th he struck out Trea Turner, gave up a single to Bryce Harper, and got Castellanos to ground out to Valdez. To me it was patently obvious leaving Houck in was the right move because he was pitching well.

 

Max, I totally respect your opinion, and despite what another poster said, I would not have been upset had Cora left Houck in, at least until someone got on base.

 

We've talked about this issue a lot, here. The numbers are pretty clear and do actually represent real games. The fact is, Houck often looks really good, but then starts to slip the 2nd time through, at times, and then the 3rd time through almost always leads to disaster. They key is deciding when to take him out, even when he has looked good. Waiting for 1-2 or two to get on base might be too late, since we don't have 4 Winks to bring into the 5th inning.

 

The numbers are stark, although the 3rd time through is a rather small sample size, and one could argue Houck deserves some more chances to show he can do better.

 

.479 1st time (234 PAs)

.706 2nd time (217 PAs)

1.030 3rd time (59 PAs)

An eye opener is that he has only 1 PA against the 4th time through.

 

Let's look at this year:

 

Game 1: After 4 IP 0 ERs, 1 hit, 1 BB- looking great going into the 5th right? Leave him in, right? (Better stats than today.)

 

In the 5th, near the end of the second time through, he gets the first guy out. 13 outs, 1 hit, 1BB, then...

Single and HR (last two batter of second time through, then he gets the second out. 14 outs, 3 hits, 1 BB, 2 R. Still okay, right? Leave him in?

3rd time through, starting with 2 outs: HR by Mullins. He gets the last guy out and then is yanked.

 

Game 2: Cruises through the first time through: 9 outs, 0 ER, 0 Hits, 1 BB.

2nd time: ground out, BB, K, 1B, 2B, SF (2 runs in) But he was doing so well!

He gets the next inning out 1-2-3 all groundouts and is yanked after 5. (only faced 1 guy 3rd time through.)

 

Game 3: He struggles in the first (BB, 1B, 2B and 2 runs), then settles down a bit, although he allows a BB and 1B in 2 of the innings that followed and a BB in the other.

He's yanked after facing 1 batter 3rd time through.

 

BTW, we won all 3 games.

 

Game is a win, too. Houck cruises through 3 (9 outs, 0 hits, 1BB).

4th inning (2nd time) he allows 2 hits but no runs.

5th inning (last guy up 2nd time through ground rule 2B), first guy 3rd time through- you guessed it- another ground rule 2B for a run. He was doing great up to then! Let's give him a chance to see the 3rd time through- great! a 1-2-3 6th.

The 7th was not so kind (still 3rd time) 1B, line out, ground out, HR- Ooops!

 

6th start (only loss in Houck start, until today)

Unearned run in 1st

He does okay until the 4th: the last 4 guys of the second time through go 1B, 1B, 1B, Ground out, then 3rd time through...

1B (run) and deep SF (run) then lineout to end inning.

They leave him in the 5th and he does fine- just 1 BB, then he's yanked.

 

His last start (a win):

2BB and a 2B through the first 17 batters, then: 1B, 1B. K, BB, 1B, 1B, HR (6 runs) He was doing pretty well before batter #17.

 

I just don't see how Cora can be blamed for trying to guess the exact moment to yank Houck. He could have left him in, which would have been fine, but who knows, really?

 

I do not think it was so obvious.

 

I think yanking him was a good choice. I just wish we had better middle guys to bring in.

 

-

[mvp 78]

Not only was it multiple times through the order at that time, but it was a LHB coming up.

 

Vs LHB: 853 OPS, 365 wOBA, 5.62 FIP, WHIP 1.58

Vs RHB: 505 OPS, 233 wOBA, 2.55 FIP, WHIP 1.07

 

You can sell me on him trying to go after a tough righty like Turner, but he struggles against lefties no matter what inning. Giving a lefty a second chance to see him is basically putting a ball on a tee.

[moonslav59]

Not only was it multiple times through the order at that time, but it was a LHB coming up.

 

Vs LHB: 853 OPS, 365 wOBA, 5.62 FIP, WHIP 1.58

Vs RHB: 505 OPS, 233 wOBA, 2.55 FIP, WHIP 1.07

 

You can sell me on him trying to go after a tough righty like Turner, but he struggles against lefties no matter what inning. Giving a lefty a second chance to see him is basically putting a ball on a tee.

 

Great point.

 

Eventually, we will give Houck more chances with the third time through. His sample size is just over 60 PAs against- not much to really judge him, but enough to be cautious in winnable games.

[mvp 78]

Great point.

 

Eventually, we will give Houck more chances with the third time through. His sample size is just over 60 PAs against- not much to really judge him, but enough to be cautious in winnable games.

 

The concern is that the LHPs they are brining out of the pen right now aren't great. Bleier is DFA worthy. Bernardino is here because of a DFA.

 

Joely is still in ST mode in AAA, but he's a better option than either of those two. His FB was slow in his first appearance, but ticked back up on Saturday. Not sure how long they will keep him down in WOO if Bleier continues to look worrisome.

[Old Red]

Not only was it multiple times through the order at that time, but it was a LHB coming up.

 

Vs LHB: 853 OPS, 365 wOBA, 5.62 FIP, WHIP 1.58

Vs RHB: 505 OPS, 233 wOBA, 2.55 FIP, WHIP 1.07

 

You can sell me on him trying to go after a tough righty like Turner, but he struggles against lefties no matter what inning. Giving a lefty a second chance to see him is basically putting a ball on a tee.

 

I said it was the right move yesterday to take Houck out when they did, and I would say it today, and say it tomorrow Moon agreed at the time it was the right move, but said he would have brought someone else in. Because Max was throwing a hissy fit like he was the day before, and said Kike was an idiot, and questioned Moon about his opinion, and used a word that Moon had to correct him on Moon has been hemming, and hawing ever since. If Cora would have left Houck in, and the same thing happened I have no doubt Moon would have thrown a bigger hissy fit than Max, and would have thrown out all the stats he could find on why. The move didn’t work, but I still say it was the right move, and I would do it again.

[moonslav59]

I said it was the right move yesterday to take Houck out when they did, and I would say it today, and say it tomorrow Moon agreed at the time it was the right move, but said he would have brought someone else in. Because Max was throwing a hissy fit like he was the day before, and said Kike was an idiot, and questioned Moon about his opinion, and used a word that Moon had to correct him on Moon has been hemming, and hawing ever since. If Cora would have left Houck in, and the same thing happened I have no doubt Moon would have thrown a bigger hissy fit than Max, and would have thrown out all the stats he could find on why. The move didn’t work, but I still say it was the right move, and I would do it again.

 

I said I wished we had someone else to bring in, but we only have 1 Wink not 4.

 

As MVP points out, our LH RP'er options are limited. We do have some RHPs who get lefties out, very well, but it's hard to bring them in so early. (Scheiber was better v LHBs, last year.)

[moonslav59]

I said it was the right move yesterday to take Houck out when they did, and I would say it today, and say it tomorrow Moon agreed at the time it was the right move, but said he would have brought someone else in. Because Max was throwing a hissy fit like he was the day before, and said Kike was an idiot, and questioned Moon about his opinion, and used a word that Moon had to correct him on Moon has been hemming, and hawing ever since. If Cora would have left Houck in, and the same thing happened I have no doubt Moon would have thrown a bigger hissy fit than Max, and would have thrown out all the stats he could find on why. The move didn’t work, but I still say it was the right move, and I would do it again.

 

I'm not hemming and hawing, and stop trying to bait me into returning fire.

 

There are many areas that are gray. Again, I don't throw hissiess over in game choices. managers know more than us.

[mvp 78]

I said it was the right move yesterday to take Houck out when they did, and I would say it today, and say it tomorrow Moon agreed at the time it was the right move, but said he would have brought someone else in. Because Max was throwing a hissy fit like he was the day before, and said Kike was an idiot, and questioned Moon about his opinion, and used a word that Moon had to correct him on Moon has been hemming, and hawing ever since. If Cora would have left Houck in, and the same thing happened I have no doubt Moon would have thrown a bigger hissy fit than Max, and would have thrown out all the stats he could find on why. The move didn’t work, but I still say it was the right move, and I would do it again.

 

It's the right move, Bleier just isn't a very good pitcher at the moment.

[Maxbialystock]

I said it was the right move yesterday to take Houck out when they did, and I would say it today, and say it tomorrow Moon agreed at the time it was the right move, but said he would have brought someone else in. Because Max was throwing a hissy fit like he was the day before, and said Kike was an idiot, and questioned Moon about his opinion, and used a word that Moon had to correct him on Moon has been hemming, and hawing ever since. If Cora would have left Houck in, and the same thing happened I have no doubt Moon would have thrown a bigger hissy fit than Max, and would have thrown out all the stats he could find on why. The move didn’t work, but I still say it was the right move, and I would do it again.

 

 

One more time.

 

In the actual game, as opposed to all earlier games in which Houck has pitched for the Sox--

 

1. The Sox reliever, a lefty going against lefty Schwarber, did in fact give up a 2 run dinger. This is indisputable. It is not based on any statistical analyses about the Sox reliever, about Tanner Houck, or about Kyle Schwarber.

 

2. Before Houck was pulled in the 6th inning--and this is also indisputable because it happened--he had already pitched to the first four hitters in the Phillies lineup for the third time in the game. You and mvp78 and moonslav all seem to agree that no one should ever allow Houck to face any batting order three times. And you all continue to ignore the fact that it had just freaking happened.

 

3. On this third time thru the Phillies order, Houck got Bryson Stott, a lefty hitter, to pop up, Trea Turner, a righty hitter who is being paid $300M because he is a very good hitter against both righty and lefty pitchers, to strike out, gave up a single to lefty batter Bryce Harper, and got righty batter Nick Castellanos to ground out to 2b.

 

4. To that let me add something no one else has bothered to mention. Alex Cora agrees with me more than with any of you. Why? Because Alex Cora sent Tanner Houck to pitch the 6th knowing he would fact the 2d, 3d, and 4th hitters in the Phillies lineup for the third freaking time.

 

5. Let me repeat that. Without exception, you and your confreres would never have sent Tanner Houck out to pitch the sixth inning. We know that because of your collective insistence that Tanner Houck cannot be trusted to face a lineup for the third time.

 

6. Much has been made of the fact that the next batter, Kyle Schwarber, eats righty pitchers for lunch--especially worthless bums like Tanner Houck whom you and everyone else have assumed cannot get anyone out when he faces them for the 3d time in a game. Statistically--this season, anyway--Schwaber has hit 4 dingers in 46 at bats vs lefties and 4 dingers in 82 at bats vs righties. So Shwarber was more likely to hit a dinger against Bleier than against Houck.

 

7. So I continue to believe that leaving Tanner Houck in the game because of how well he was pitching while facing the Phillies lineup for the third time was the right move. It is beyond question he was throwing better stuff than Bleier.

[Bellhorn04]

Much has been made of the fact that the next batter, Kyle Schwarber, eats righty pitchers for lunch--especially worthless bums like Tanner Houck whom you and everyone else have assumed cannot get anyone out when he faces them for the 3d time in a game. Statistically--this season, anyway--Schwaber has hit 4 dingers in 46 at bats vs lefties and 4 dingers in 82 at bats vs righties. So Shwarber was more likely to hit a dinger against Bleier than against Houck.

 

Here is where your reasoning becomes dubious. Over his career Schwarbs has hit .879 against righties and .682 against lefties. That's a gulf.

 

You are arguing that Cora should have respected the short sample over the long one. What makes you think that's statistically sound? Have you done research on this?